Why do NTs always have the upper hand in this case?

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Jamesy
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23 Aug 2012, 6:20 pm

From experience when i get into an argument with an NT even though i 'think' i am justified and right it seems that everyone else around the NT just thinks i am an idiot and make me out too be the bad guy.

Do you ever find as well that when you get angry with an NT other NTs defend him but not you? NTs just gang up on you all the time.

For example when i argue with my NT brother and when i think he has done me wrong my family, friends and even strangers who i have never met seem too turn against me like a pack of wolves. :x On the other hand maybe its sometmes hard too see how i come across too others and perhaps even though i think behaving in the right way others just think i behave like a jackass.


Me and my brother have kinda argued in public once or twice and judging by the reaction of others around me they thought i was the one behaving like an idiot even though my bro did something bad too me in the first place. maybe i don't behave in a very mature manner or i come across like a child throwing a tantrum too other people? perhaps my brother behaves in a way when i argue with him that that gurantess that i will be the one who looks stupid and not him? Even in my mind though i think i am just standing up for myself and have every right too be angry other people make me feel like i am a criminal.



Another idea could be that when i get angry i perhaps come across as more weird than usual while my brother just comes as more cool headed too strangers and as someone so right said being weird initself is enough too annyoy people esspecially NTs. So maybe too strangers my brother will look inoccent even though he is not. I am just speculating here thats all.



Last edited by Jamesy on 23 Aug 2012, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

InThisTogether
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23 Aug 2012, 6:44 pm

Of the Aspies I know IRL, most can come off sounding like arrogant pigs or condescending know-it-alls, even though I understand that they don't intend it that way at all. They are neither condescending nor arrogant and cannot help that they come off that way. Were I none the wiser, I would almost immediately side against them because I always side against condescending, arrogant people, even when they are right. I can't stand condescension or arrogance.

IOW, you might be right when you suspect that it may be that you are coming off in a way that you do not intend to, especially if strangers are responding like this. It doesn't make it "right" but understanding what is going on might help you to change it. For many years people thought I was a cold snob when they first met me. It was only after I figured out why that I was able to consciously change it. I must say that much of the time, I do not make the effort. But when it matters to me what someone thinks or if it puts me at a disadvantage to have someone think I am snob, I know what to do to fix it. My posture is rigid, the cadence of my voice is too formal, I use too many big words, I tend to have too much eye contact, and I do not engage in small talk, except for to answer questions with too short of answers and too little information. All of these things I have learned to alter over time, so now when I first meet people, if I put the effort into it, they think I am warm and friendly.


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Jamesy
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23 Aug 2012, 6:54 pm

5 years ago i went over too the local shops with my brother and his friends. i was 18 and my brother was 15 at the time. more too the point since i was 18 he made me go too the store and buy alcohol for him and his friends. i kept having too go back in and out of the shop because i kept getting the wrong amount/type of beer. i did express fustraition with my brother outside of the shop and a group of strangers started shouting at me about how i was messing things up. inside at the time i felt like my brother was the one being out of order but judging by the strangers reactions i was the one being bad. i felt like killing those stupid people which is was none of there buissness in the first place. i am always the one getting punished and not my brother :(

something kinda similar too that happened today as well.


also why do strangers feel the need too stick there noses into things which are none of there buissness? :x



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23 Aug 2012, 7:02 pm

Jamesy wrote:
also why do strangers feel the need too stick there noses into things which are none of there buissness? :x


That, I can't help you with! LOL!


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naturalplastic
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23 Aug 2012, 7:14 pm

Had a coworker whom I later learned was a diagnosed aspie.

You maybe like this guy.

He never came off as a "bad guy"- far from it.

He just had no commonsense survival instinct.

One time we were working together under a notorioiously short tempered superviser.
In the course of the day he managed to get reprimanded three times by the same superviser- for being late, for dropping a piece equipment on the floor, and for some other thing.

Then when it shouldve been obvious that the project was almost done and he might be off the clock anyway he makes demands on this same superviser to let him go out and get a drink of water outside the place we were working. Needless to say the boss said "you can leave right now-just clock out and go home"(go home early can be a reward, or a punishment- in this context it was NOT a reward given with a smile).

The point being that he shouldve know to just stay thirsty a little while longer and not make an issue out of it. Most of us (even aspies) learn when were ten that you dont ask mom and dad for a bigger allowance the same evening they reprimanded you for something.You wait a couple days- and THEN ask them.



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23 Aug 2012, 7:15 pm

I've learned to simply state my opinion, keep my mouth shut for the rest of the conversation, roll my eyes when necessary and then look smug when I'm proven right. NT's can call me an arrogant as*hole all they like. At least I'm an arrogant as*hole whose right. My way especially works great around other people. A (wo)man who speaks more, is judged more.



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23 Aug 2012, 7:15 pm

There is an art to arguing without looking like the bad guy. Do you keep calm and collected, or tend to lash out? What about him?


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23 Aug 2012, 7:16 pm

I don't think it's because you are coming across as arrogant, nor is it because they like the NT more than they like you and want to side with him/her. Rather, I think it's just because their brains are not the same as ours. When we can see the logical answer as plain as day, they simply can't.

Therefore, when you're standing there arguing that you are right and the NT is wrong, nobody else can see that you are right, because they cannot understand the logic that is leading you to your conclusion.

I do not agree with the person above who says they would always side against the arrogant person, even if the arrogant person was wrong. I would not do that. If someone asked for my opinion, I would consider the argument logically and would side with the person who was clearly right, whoever they happened to be. Otherwise, I would be lying.



Jamesy
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23 Aug 2012, 7:27 pm

Shatbat wrote:
There is an art to arguing without looking like the bad guy. Do you keep calm and collected, or tend to lash out? What about him?




Yes that is exactley what i was thinking earlier. when i lash out at my brother infront of others he just stands there looking at me with a horrified/open mouthed face but he does kinda argue back as well but maybe not too the extent that i do but at the same time he does act agressive as well in arguments. in this scenario all eyes will usually be on me and i get stares or disaproving looks from people.


but come on though outside of the store that time my brother was sending me back inside constantly and i argued with him becasue i felt embarresed about having too go back in the shop all the time and he was stressing me out. surely the strangers who yelled abuse should have realised that?



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23 Aug 2012, 7:35 pm

Plodder wrote:
I don't think it's because you are coming across as arrogant, nor is it because they like the NT more than they like you and want to side with him/her. Rather, I think it's just because their brains are not the same as ours. When we can see the logical answer as plain as day, they simply can't.

Therefore, when you're standing there arguing that you are right and the NT is wrong, nobody else can see that you are right, because they cannot understand the logic that is leading you to your conclusion.

I do not agree with the person above who says they would always side against the arrogant person, even if the arrogant person was wrong. I would not do that. If someone asked for my opinion, I would consider the argument logically and would side with the person who was clearly right, whoever they happened to be. Otherwise, I would be lying.


This!

They simply do not understand your way of thinking and so cannot follow your logic.



Jamesy
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23 Aug 2012, 7:36 pm

Do u find as well that us aspies tend too have a different view of what 'physical beuty' is compared too NTs?



chris5000
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23 Aug 2012, 7:42 pm

I dont even try to argue with people anymore even when im right. ive found I can never win.



GiantHockeyFan
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23 Aug 2012, 8:01 pm

I've documented my same frustrations, especially in relation to my pathological liar brother. Bottom line, I know I can come across as a arrogant jackass even though I'm not but when I was more quiet and reserved I had even less success. I'm just not good at presenting my usually superior ideas.

On this issue, there is a guy on my softball team who comes across as a hot headed egotistical know it all who thinks he always right (even though he usually is). He used to annoy me to no end until I realized having a one on one conversation we have A LOT in common, Aspie or not.



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23 Aug 2012, 8:11 pm

bumble wrote:
I do not agree with the person above who says they would always side against the arrogant person, <SNIP>

They simply do not understand your way of thinking and so cannot follow your logic.


It has nothing to do with logic or being unable to follow logic. Not all Aspies are logical, nor are all NTs illogical.

It has to do with a desire to protect the underdog. I have always been this way. I bristle against anyone who thinks they are innately better, wiser, smarter, or more logical than someone else. If someone is arrogant, I may very well recognize the logic in what they are saying, but I am much more apt to stand by the person who is being belittled or degraded, because arrogance and condescension both belittle and degrade the person on the receiving end. Sometimes there are ideals that are more important to me than being right. I do not view being factually "right" as the ultimate goal. However, I do believe in standing up for people, especially people who are being walked on by someone else. Therefore, there may be times that my allegiance is not with the person who is factually "right" if they are being right in a demeaning way. I guess maybe it is more important to me to behave in way that I see as morally "right."

Others may have different priorities or believe differently, but that doesn't make me incapable of following or understanding logic, ykwim? It just means that sometimes logic isn't always the priority in my decision making or actions. I sometimes consciously choose to disregard it. I realize that sounds completely absurd to many people, but to be truthful, my ability to do that is one of the things about myself that I like the most.


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23 Aug 2012, 8:16 pm

It's probably because many NTs see most Asipes as Logic Monsters.


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Last edited by CockneyRebel on 23 Aug 2012, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Aug 2012, 8:17 pm

Jamesy wrote:
Do u find as well that us aspies tend too have a different view of what 'physical beuty' is compared too NTs?


I'm not sure. Are you referring to physical beauty in humans? I suppose it is possible for anyone to find beauty in things that are not considered conventionally beautiful, though I am not sure that has anything to do with being an Aspie. While I am technically not an Aspie, I can say that sometimes I do not find "stars" that are considered beautiful particularly beautiful. Sometimes they seem plain and sometimes they almost look odd to me.


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