Why do we not have the right to rely on others?

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y-pod
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10 Oct 2012, 2:36 am

I'm a bit confused. Who are these people who wouldn't let you take those courses? Your parents? Why do they have any say in what courses you take?

Just don't tell them the details of your own decisions. Say "don't worry I can handle them."

On the other hand, it sounds like your parents still care about your and help you in some ways. You know that is great news. My parents give me nothing but trouble and blames, and an unwrapped present at Xmas every year.


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helles
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10 Oct 2012, 5:23 am

Hmmm.. maybe your post was not entirely clear on all points. You clarified a few points afterwards, which made your statements more complex.

Ain´t going to offer no comments. After all I am from a socialdemocratic-communist dictature kingdom :)


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kirayng
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10 Oct 2012, 8:17 am

Thank you for the replies, you all definitely get what I'm saying after I clarified.

It's definitely a moral issue, the feeling of being able but being told not able then the conflict that arises from needing help, yet not "deserving of it". SSDI is a system people pay into by working, it's insurance, like your medical insurance. If you work, and become disabled, you are actually entitled to it. Some people misunderstand the system as a handout from the government-- that's SSI. :)

@1000Knives- You totally get me. I hope things get better for you too; one of the greatest challenges for us seems to be doing something that makes us happy without others condemning it.

@EstherJ- you put it the way I wanted to say it... I wrote my OP with lots of emotion so my words got really messed up. Thanks for clarifying too!



thewhitrbbit
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10 Oct 2012, 8:33 am

You said:

Quote:
Teach me some independence by making it possible to do the things that make me happy!


That sounds an awful lot like you want to play. By play, I mean do things you enjoy instead of working. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way.

Quote:
I used to be a very hardcore libertarian/conservative, until I encountered hardship. Now I still am one, but less so.


I am a libertarian, but I accept that the economic and social cost of providing some assistance programs is less than the cost of not doing it, provided they are tightly monitored for fraud.

Quote:
I do agree with the other posters on here, that we are not entitled to help. Nobody is. But, it's nice for others to help others and generally makes the world a more livable place.


Agreed. I think everyone should do things to make the world a better place for everyone.

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Tell that to the 1%(or close to 1%).


Romney and Obama donate about the same amount to charity.

Joe Biden donates a measly 1% while campaigning for the poor, and calling Paul Ryan a selfish teabagger, despite Paul Ryan making less than Biden but donating 4x more to charity.



kirayng
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10 Oct 2012, 8:39 am

thewhitrbbit wrote:
You said:

Quote:
Teach me some independence by making it possible to do the things that make me happy!


That sounds an awful lot like you want to play. By play, I mean do things you enjoy instead of working. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way.

Quote:
I used to be a very hardcore libertarian/conservative, until I encountered hardship. Now I still am one, but less so.


I am a libertarian, but I accept that the economic and social cost of providing some assistance programs is less than the cost of not doing it, provided they are tightly monitored for fraud.

Quote:
I do agree with the other posters on here, that we are not entitled to help. Nobody is. But, it's nice for others to help others and generally makes the world a more livable place.


Agreed. I think everyone should do things to make the world a better place for everyone.

Quote:
Tell that to the 1%(or close to 1%).


Romney and Obama donate about the same amount to charity.

Joe Biden donates a measly 1% while campaigning for the poor, and calling Paul Ryan a selfish teabagger, despite Paul Ryan making less than Biden but donating 4x more to charity.


Doing something that makes me happy does not equal "play". Playing doesn't make me happy, being useful and productive in society makes me happy. I, like many others on the spectrum, need tools to function better in society. Personally I've been approved for adult services but denied the insurance that will pay for it, it's a hard thing to accept. That's what I was referring to, getting approved for help then denied the means to pay for that help, so therefor it's a draw, no help to be independent, no steady income to pay for help, no insurance to pay for help, see what I'm getting at there? Rock and a hard place, isn't it?

Playing to me is having fun. I am not after fun, I'm after being happy by being self-sufficient with some help. Is that entirely out of my rights as a human being to you? It sucks that people abuse systems in place to help the disadvantaged, but regular people bend and break rules all the time. Should I have to pay for that? Well, no, but I do, and we all pay for the rulebreakers. How is wanting something from the same system any worse or better than that? It's a real mess of a situation isn't it?



thewhitrbbit
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10 Oct 2012, 8:42 am

I understand what you mean now.

We had different connotations of what "make me happy" meant.



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10 Oct 2012, 9:55 am

To be independent is to not rely on others for direction or assistance. In other words, no one has to give anything to the truly independent person, including their independence.


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Sweetleaf
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10 Oct 2012, 10:23 am

EstherJ wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I am kind of a socialist more or less so I think it is societies job to provide for its citizens even the disabled, unemployed and homeless ones. So I think people should rely on each other for help, obviously it is good to learn individual skills as well but I don't really see a problem with members of a society helping each other out where needed. But yeah its not a very popular perspective especially here in the U.S.

Anyways good luck with your disability case...system owes a little compensation to the people its f****d(or maybe you don't feel f****d by society in which case you can ignore that last part 8) .


You know, I'm definitely not a socialist, and I can agree that it is the job of humanity to watch out for the unpopular people of society.
I think that it's a big problem to equate a political affiliation with compassion and human rights (I'm not saying you're doing that, Sweetleaf, I'm saying that people do that and it's leading to issues).

Human rights and dignity shouldn't be tied to a particular philosophy or politics. It should be tied to humanity. Sadly, that's not the case.


Well yeah its just that kind of is a large part of socialist philosophy, but I am not saying things like that should be limited to political affiliations......I just tend to run into quite a bit of hostility about my particular political leaning and opinions like the idea we should have a society built on community rather than every man for himself or pseudo-survival of the fittest capitalism.


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kirayng
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10 Oct 2012, 2:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
To be independent is to not rely on others for direction or assistance. In other words, no one has to give anything to the truly independent person, including their independence.


No one is truly independent. We all exist together. Absolutism has it's place, but not in this thread.



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10 Oct 2012, 10:06 pm

kirayng wrote:
Fnord wrote:
To be independent is to not rely on others for direction or assistance. In other words, no one has to give anything to the truly independent person, including their independence.
No one is truly independent. We all exist together. Absolutism has it's place, but not in this thread.

1. Do not conflate Independence with Interdependence. The former is the state of social needlessness, while the latter describes a communal society.

2. If absolutism has no place in this thread, then why did you use the absolute qualifier of "No one"?


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cubedemon6073
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11 Oct 2012, 1:55 pm

Quote:
1. Do not conflate Independence with Interdependence. The former is the state of social needlessness, while the latter describes a communal society.


How is independence being conflated with interdependence? In detail, how is it possible to have true and absolute independence like you suggest based upon your definition? Why is all independence noble and all dependence ignoble?

2. If absolutism has no place in this thread, then why did you use the absolute qualifier of "No one"?[/quote]

a. There are no absolutes

Since a is true then a has to be not true. This means it is not true that there are no absolutes. Another way of saying is that it is only sometimes true that there are absolutes. His absolute only holds up in certain cases and he was meaning your absolute. How does your absolute that one can be independent in all cases that can possibly occur always hold up Fnord? Can you prove your absolute that all human beings can truthfully be independent in all cases for 100% of their lives?



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11 Oct 2012, 6:53 pm

Society is abelist and claims to only want help to go to those that truly need it, yet their definition of those that truly need it can be so narrow that many people don't get the help they need. This is especially true with mental disabilities or invisible physical disabilities. People expect you to just get over it. If you could you wouldn't be disabled.

I'm just lucky I have my mother to support me because otherwise I'd be homeless and die on the streets. I didn't get any services of any kind until I recently got Medicaid. I don't get anything else.



LadySera
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11 Oct 2012, 11:01 pm

kirayng,
I just wanted to say that it seems that people on here are attacking you. I find that very sad. You'd think that some people would be more understanding. That's one of the reasons that I'm not on here often.



EstherJ
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11 Oct 2012, 11:23 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
EstherJ wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I am kind of a socialist more or less so I think it is societies job to provide for its citizens even the disabled, unemployed and homeless ones. So I think people should rely on each other for help, obviously it is good to learn individual skills as well but I don't really see a problem with members of a society helping each other out where needed. But yeah its not a very popular perspective especially here in the U.S.

Anyways good luck with your disability case...system owes a little compensation to the people its f****d(or maybe you don't feel f****d by society in which case you can ignore that last part 8) .


You know, I'm definitely not a socialist, and I can agree that it is the job of humanity to watch out for the unpopular people of society.
I think that it's a big problem to equate a political affiliation with compassion and human rights (I'm not saying you're doing that, Sweetleaf, I'm saying that people do that and it's leading to issues).

Human rights and dignity shouldn't be tied to a particular philosophy or politics. It should be tied to humanity. Sadly, that's not the case.


Well yeah its just that kind of is a large part of socialist philosophy, but I am not saying things like that should be limited to political affiliations......I just tend to run into quite a bit of hostility about my particular political leaning and opinions like the idea we should have a society built on community rather than every man for himself or pseudo-survival of the fittest capitalism.


As a conservative capitalist, I see nothing wrong with a society built on community. I see a lot wrong with a society built on extremes.
Extreme community and extreme capitalism both lead to extreme problems.
What I think is interesting is how philosophical political stances are...and how these philosophies tie into how one treats their fellow human, no matter who they are, or what they're dealing with.