When did honesty go from being a virture, to a crime.

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Stoek
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01 Mar 2013, 6:19 am

for real?



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01 Mar 2013, 6:37 am

When totalitarianism started creeping in to every aspect of our lives just as George Orwell predicted in 1984. The amount of bureaucrats and the amount of notes kept on each person has increased as time as gone by, as has the number of laws, and the number of crimes invented.

The end result is it is a crime to do almost anything if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time and not the right class of person. Thus honesty is dangerous. People have learned to become liars to survive in a world obsessed with security and intruding into privacy.



Ilka
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01 Mar 2013, 6:38 am

Honesty is a virtue, but empathy is also a virtue. Honesty can be used to hurt people. You can be honest without hurting people's feelings. All depends on the way and moment you choose "to be honest". I used to hurt people with my "honesty". Nowadays I am still honest but I use my honesty wisely and try not to hurt the people I love. Honestly IS a virtue, but it is like a superpower: it has to be used wisely, and for good.



Stoek
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01 Mar 2013, 7:20 am

Ilka wrote:
Honesty is a virtue, but empathy is also a virtue. Honesty can be used to hurt people. You can be honest without hurting people's feelings. All depends on the way and moment you choose "to be honest". I used to hurt people with my "honesty". Nowadays I am still honest but I use my honesty wisely and try not to hurt the people I love. Honestly IS a virtue, but it is like a superpower: it has to be used wisely, and for good.


My problem with this argument is why is honesty itself be hurtful. The truth is we have a society of adults that are incapable of taking criticism, whether it is just criticism or unjust.

This is the problem with it, and why I think people truly are becoming victims of a society that won't accept truth.

It's pretty obvious this is a major societal problem facing younger peoples, as there incapable of taking accurate criticism nor are they capable of deciding if a true statement such as "you work to slow" has any merit. It's becoming a major issue in the work and scholastic environment to the point that it's actually effecting performance.

On the autistic side this is where the gulf become truly dramatic.

Firstly we're no longer able to get accurate feedback from our peers when it is needed. A simple your talking to much or shutup, is the type of feedback we so often need yet will never be able to receive.

Secondly a forced constraint on behavior causes us to loose a valuable avenue for judging someone's character. If a person that'd we consider antiautistic isn't able to verbally express their feelings, we may be caught off guard when that person expresses nonverbally.



cubedemon6073
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01 Mar 2013, 8:02 am

Quote:
My problem with this argument is why is honesty itself be hurtful. The truth is we have a society of adults that are incapable of taking criticism, whether it is just criticism or unjust.


This is the problem with it, and why I think people truly are becoming victims of a society that won't accept truth.

It's pretty obvious this is a major societal problem facing younger peoples, as there incapable of taking accurate criticism nor are they capable of deciding if a true statement such as "you work to slow" has any merit. It's becoming a major issue in the work and scholastic environment to the point that it's actually effecting performance.

On the autistic side this is where the gulf become truly dramatic.

Firstly we're no longer able to get accurate feedback from our peers when it is needed. A simple your talking to much or shutup, is the type of feedback we so often need yet will never be able to receive.

Secondly a forced constraint on behavior causes us to loose a valuable avenue for judging someone's character. If a person that'd we consider antiautistic isn't able to verbally express their feelings, we may be caught off guard when that person expresses nonverbally.

I think constructive feedback is better. I would desire this more than criticism.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/g ... dback.html

If I work to slow I want to know what I can do to improve. What specific techniques can I use to improve it. Honestly, it seems like employers want to use rule of thumb methods instead of the Taylorian system. Has anyone heard of Frederic Taylor's Scientific Management.

Quote:
Secondly a forced constraint on behavior causes us to loose a valuable avenue for judging someone's character. If a person that'd we consider antiautistic isn't able to verbally express their feelings, we may be caught off guard when that person expresses nonverbally.


I agree with this. On the other hand, one has to be able to construct a logical argument of your own and one has to be able to show the anti-autistics where their rationality is off. I do believe in Neurodiversity and autism rights. I am in this camp but I will have to admit parts of the reasoning behind Neurodiversity is erroneous. If ND is to be accepted it has to have strong premises leading to sound conclusion(s).



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01 Mar 2013, 8:17 am

Stoek wrote:
Ilka wrote:
Honesty is a virtue, but empathy is also a virtue. Honesty can be used to hurt people. You can be honest without hurting people's feelings. All depends on the way and moment you choose "to be honest". I used to hurt people with my "honesty". Nowadays I am still honest but I use my honesty wisely and try not to hurt the people I love. Honestly IS a virtue, but it is like a superpower: it has to be used wisely, and for good.


My problem with this argument is why is honesty itself be hurtful. The truth is we have a society of adults that are incapable of taking criticism, whether it is just criticism or unjust.

This is the problem with it, and why I think people truly are becoming victims of a society that won't accept truth.

It's pretty obvious this is a major societal problem facing younger peoples, as there incapable of taking accurate criticism nor are they capable of deciding if a true statement such as "you work to slow" has any merit. It's becoming a major issue in the work and scholastic environment to the point that it's actually effecting performance.

On the autistic side this is where the gulf become truly dramatic.

Firstly we're no longer able to get accurate feedback from our peers when it is needed. A simple your talking to much or shutup, is the type of feedback we so often need yet will never be able to receive.

Secondly a forced constraint on behavior causes us to loose a valuable avenue for judging someone's character. If a person that'd we consider antiautistic isn't able to verbally express their feelings, we may be caught off guard when that person expresses nonverbally.


Can you give an example of when honesty hasn't been taken as virtue?



Stoek
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01 Mar 2013, 8:27 am

I think constructive feedback is better. I would desire this more than criticism.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/g ... dback.html

If I work to slow I want to know what I can do to improve. What specific techniques can I use to improve it. Honestly, it seems like employers want to use rule of thumb methods instead of the Taylorian system. Has anyone heard of Frederic Taylor's Scientific Management.

I agree with this. On the other hand, one has to be able to construct a logical argument of your own and one has to be able to show the anti-autistics where their rationality is off. I do believe in Neurodiversity and autism rights. I am in this camp but I will have to admit parts of the reasoning behind Neurodiversity is erroneous. If ND is to be accepted it has to have strong premises leading to sound conclusion(s).[/quote]
The problem with constructive feedback is that it's manipulative. It's one thing to be honest, it's another thing to intentionally say something to manipulate someone's behavior. It's better for the person being criticized to take ownership, so feedback cannot be so easily corrupted. Deciphering feedback is a skill that many people need.

Yeah well I was studying industrial engineering, when I came to this conclusion. So I know of taylorism.



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01 Mar 2013, 8:30 am

Folks don't like their beliefs challenged.

For instance, most folks think they need lightning arrestors to protect their home when they install outside antennas

The "proper answer," if someone asks, is that is a code requirement.

The "correct answer," which is almost useless, is that it a just a decoration. The way to protect your home is to install a single point ground that bonds all the electrical conductors entering the home together without twists or bends to metal rods pounded deeply into the ground. If you have an antenna on one side and a service entrance on the other, you need to use a transmission line to route the transmission line to the service entrance, and then use more of it to bring it to where you need it. Sheldon would bring up Fermion and Boson physics how lightning actually behaves, but I know better. Lightning damage typically occurs when the power grid gets struck. The lightning then traverses from one side of the home to the other, to get to the best ground available, which is often the ground used for the external TV or radio antenna.



Last edited by BTDT on 01 Mar 2013, 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

jagatai
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01 Mar 2013, 8:35 am

There is a problem in this question in that the issues are far more subtle and nuanced than the binary nature of virtue vs. crime implies.

One of the problems with the concept of honesty is that it assumes that there is no misunderstanding in honest communication. If I say "you are talking too much" what have I communicated? First of all, there is the subjective nature of the word "too". What is "too much"? I may have a low tolerance for wordiness and may feel that two sentences are more than enough to communicate an idea. Whereas you may feel you have not communicated a concept adequately in a brief statement.

I might say, in all honesty, that you are talking too much, but all I have really said is that "you are talking more than I like". You might hear the statement "you are talking too much" and assume you are being told to shut up for the duration of a meeting while I might just be trying to get you to make your point a little more quickly.

Communication is a remarkably complex process and making oneself absolutely clear to another person is quite difficult... Perhaps it can never be fully achieved. So honesty can never be an either / or thing.

It seems to me that you are misunderstanding the nature of the problem. Honesty is not a crime, but it is reasonable to demand that people think about how their words might affect another person. If you want to communicate honestly, it is better to not necessarily say the first thing that pops into your head. Think about how your comments might be misconstrued. Think about how to phrase your comments so they do the most good.

If there is a crime, it is when people make "honest" statements that they know will either be misunderstood or will have a far greater effect than is warranted under the circumstances. This is usually understood as "passive aggressive" behavior.


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cubedemon6073
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01 Mar 2013, 8:36 am

Stoek wrote:
I think constructive feedback is better. I would desire this more than criticism.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/g ... dback.html

If I work to slow I want to know what I can do to improve. What specific techniques can I use to improve it. Honestly, it seems like employers want to use rule of thumb methods instead of the Taylorian system. Has anyone heard of Frederic Taylor's Scientific Management.

I agree with this. On the other hand, one has to be able to construct a logical argument of your own and one has to be able to show the anti-autistics where their rationality is off. I do believe in Neurodiversity and autism rights. I am in this camp but I will have to admit parts of the reasoning behind Neurodiversity is erroneous. If ND is to be accepted it has to have strong premises leading to sound conclusion(s).

The problem with constructive feedback is that it's manipulative. It's one thing to be honest, it's another thing to intentionally say something to manipulate someone's behavior. It's better for the person being criticized to take ownership, so feedback cannot be so easily corrupted. Deciphering feedback is a skill that many people need.

Yeah well I was studying industrial engineering, when I came to this conclusion. So I know of taylorism.[/quote]

I don't agree. For me, criticism is too vague. If I am doing something wrong, I would like to know what I am doing wrong and then what exactly I need to do to correct it in specific terms. Let's say I am a janitor. I don't mop everything as good as I should. Instead of telling me to clean better(criticism) why not observe how I mop, notate it, and provide specific correction. It may be that I am holding the mop in a way I should not(constructive feedback.

If someone says I'm rude, to me it is to vague. What specific things do I need to accomplish to not be rude and improve my behavior? This is why I prefer constructive feedback to criticism. I want to know what I am doing right so I am keep it up. I want to know what I am doing wrong in specific terms so I can correct myself.



Ann2011
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01 Mar 2013, 8:45 am

jagatai wrote:
I might say, in all honesty, that you are talking too much, but all I have really said is that "you are talking more than I like". You might hear the statement "you are talking too much" and assume you are being told to shut up for the duration of a meeting while I might just be trying to get you to make your point a little more quickly.

Honesty does not mean that you are correct about what you are being honest about. Honest statements are subjective based on who is making them. So you have to decide when you want to make your honest feelings known. Spewing out constantly how you feel about things is just annoying.
OP can you give an example of what honest statement was treated as a crime?



Ilka
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01 Mar 2013, 10:24 am

Stoek wrote:
My problem with this argument is why is honesty itself be hurtful.


If you see a mother with a newborn and the child is ugly as f0ck, and you say it... that would be honest, but that would be hurtful. You would hurt the mother. Is it constructive? Is there anything good in saying so? No. There is nothing you can do to change the fact that the kid is ugly. And you would hurt someone by saying so, because for most mothers their kids are the most beautiful kids in the world. An honest comment that is not useful and that would hurt the recipient is not worth saying. There is a saying for that: "If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing".

Stoek wrote:
This is the problem with it, and why I think people truly are becoming victims of a society that won't accept truth.


That might be true. Not many people can accept or handle honesty. But you know what? That is THEIR problem. If they do not want to face the truth, you cannot force them. People have the right to choose (for good or bad).

Stoek wrote:
It's pretty obvious this is a major societal problem facing younger peoples, as there incapable of taking accurate criticism nor are they capable of deciding if a true statement such as "you work to slow" has any merit. It's becoming a major issue in the work and scholastic environment to the point that it's actually effecting performance.


That might be true, but there is nothing good in saying "you work too slow". That is a negative comment. And negative comments get a negative reaction. Have you ever heard "what you plant is what you reap"? You can say the same in different words: "you need to fasten up your pace because you are getting behind". You instruct the kid on what needs to be done (fasten up) and why (because he is getting behind). He will see you are concerned and will react in a different way. Instead of making him feel bad about his performance, you will give him an objective. That is not been dishonest, that is saying the same in a positive manner.

Stoek wrote:
On the autistic side this is where the gulf become truly dramatic... A simple your talking to much or shutup, is the type of feedback we so often need yet will never be able to receive.


That is funny, because I used to be extremely "honest" and "direct", and after having an Aspie daughter I had to learn to rephrase because she is very sensitive and she feels very hurt if you tell her something like "shutup" (which is rude, by the way). Yes, sometimes I tell her "you are talking too much", but then I add why I am saying that "you are talking too much and I am really not paying attention anymore". That way she knows that when she talks too much about the same subject people looses interest after a while, specially if she is not getting feedback from the person she is talking to.

It is not only what you say, but the way you say it. Are we too sensitive nowadays? Probably. But you know what, I had to learn to change my ways and I feel a better person now. Saying constructive things is a good thing. It makes me feel good with myself.



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01 Mar 2013, 10:39 am

Ilka wrote:
If you see a mother with a newborn and the child is ugly as f0ck, and you say it... that would be honest, but that would be hurtful. You would hurt the mother. Is it constructive? Is there anything good in saying so? No. There is nothing you can do to change the fact that the kid is ugly. And you would hurt someone by saying so, because for most mothers their kids are the most beautiful kids in the world. An honest comment that is not useful and that would hurt the recipient is not worth saying. There is a saying for that: "If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing".

That might be true. Not many people can accept or handle honesty. But you know what? That is THEIR problem. If they do not want to face the truth, you cannot force them. People have the right to choose (for good or bad).

That might be true, but there is nothing good in saying "you work too slow". That is a negative comment. And negative comments get a negative reaction.

.
Your totally ignoring the concept of what it means to take criticism.

This sensitivity and knee jerk reaction to it is the problem.

Adults have a childish reaction to criticism these days and it's a fundamental problem in our society.



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01 Mar 2013, 11:02 am

Stoek wrote:
When did honesty go from being a virture, to a crime?

About the same time that dishonest people came to hold the majority in commerce, government, law enforcement, the Media, and social websites.


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01 Mar 2013, 11:15 am

Have to agree with cubedemon and Ilka on this.

At both the old factory where I used to work, and the place I used to clean, I have run into superiors who told me "You work too slow" without specifying what it was I was doing wrong- at those same workplaces, there were also floor managers who did give me constructive criticism and explained how to improve my methods.

Part of why I was working too slow was due to my autism and my tendency to get bogged down on details (wanting to do too much; being too much of a completist). Since the average co-worker did not have this problem, and found their balance a lot faster, I was at something of a MINOR disadvantage- at first. Eventually, I learned to get into the rhythm of the job, but it took TIME, and it took understanding from my floor managers.
The ones who gave me constructive criticism, were the ones who believed there was merit in keeping me employed; the ones who kept saying "You work too slow. You did it wrong. If you keep up like this, you'll lose the job." were the ones who felt it was not worth it to invest their time/effort into me, since they felt it would cost them profit.

Let me tell you how it makes me FEEL when someone tells me "Work faster" or "Shut up". It makes me feel bad about my performance on the job, and it makes me feel irritated at the person saying these things to me, which in turn leads to my performance suffering even more and so on and so forth.
Now someone who explains to me what it is I'm doing wrong, how I could improve my speed, or where it is that I run into snags, and also points out what I'm doing right, will reach me a lot more easily- and will honestly boost my motivation as well.

It's not about being too sensitive to criticism. It's about the criticism taking on a form that's more akin to an attack meant to belittle you, than something that's meant to improve the way you handle your job.
The criticism becomes unrecognisable as criticism.
I've thought about it while I was working at the factory. I thought "Maybe this is just their way of trying to get me to perform better." But then afterward, when I was attempting to get friendly with those supervisors, it turned out they didn't at all rate me that highly- I was given no positive feedback by those specific floor managers; so that just served to confirm that they had only the concern of the company on their mind (which is understandable) and viewed me as ultimately expendable and replaceable- which is FAIR, but also highly demotivational for some people.

If people don't address me in a respectful way, I will pack up and look for a different place to work.


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