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vanhalenkurtz
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22 Jun 2013, 2:35 am

beneficii wrote:
rumor has it that Kaiser in California will start covering it soon, so that may be something to jump on.


I heard that rumor back in 2007, which played a strong factor in bringing me to California. Big disappointment. Maybe the future will be different. All I learned for sure was: the gender change ID form available in California will not necessarily be acknowledged in other states, which means a gender inconsistency between birth certificate and state ID can make obtaining other state documents (such as driver's license) problematic. Voice of experience speaking.

beneficii wrote:
I don't plan on dressing that way at work (not yet, at least), but only at the therapist's appointment to make this aspect of myself and the fact that I am officially in the female role clearer to him. Nevertheless, in the hot summer, being able to wear a skirt does sound nice.


I'd be the last person on earth to discourage anyone from wearing a skirt if that's the attire desired. But, again speaking from experience, doing gender switches from place to place in a day is exhausting. I wish you well.


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22 Jun 2013, 3:29 am

beneficii wrote:
Well, now I've been told off at work for not meeting the dress code--I wasn't wearing a bra. So I've come home to put my bra on and I've started taking my hormones again because I'm not going to have male sweat smell on a bra--eww,

:( Am stunned that a workplace has the right to make a woman(-identified ) employee wear a bra!

Do you really mean that all women-identified workers at your workplace *have to* wear a bra? Or do some women not have to?

Not surprised if you seem to be experiencing a "well of indifference" towards committing more permanently to becoming a woman, ( are you sure that it is really because you fear that you won't be able to afford/sustain the financial efforts required for more sex-change that you have been feeling increasingly uninterested in "being a woman"? ) ... because this sort of rule is just one of the many small but pervasive and invasive ways in which society polices/controls the female body, ( far more than it ever does men's ).
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22 Jun 2013, 4:07 am

Beneficii said that she cultivated indifference because of her frustration with being unable to pay for and arrange surgery.

I would hesitate to equate surgery to "becoming a woman" or "more permanently becoming a woman" in any event, because surgery doesn't really mark that point. I've a friend who transitioned to male, had surgery, and then retransitioned back to female after determining that this was a mistake for her. I wouldn't characterize her surgery as "permanently becoming a man" because she quite clearly didn't make a permanent transition. I'd say that the "permanent" qualifier isn't even needed, or the designation "woman-identified" for a transgender woman. If she's a woman, she's a woman, that's all that's really needed. This is partly because I thought "woman-identified" was more an identification with women as a class, a concept in feminism that is supposed to reflect solidarity and common goals, not so much as an individual identification as a woman.

I also think that three posters now have questioned whether beneficii really wants to transition, and I think this is a common instinct for some to question transgender people on whether they really want to do this thing, whether they've really thought it through sufficiently. I personally am just going to take beneficii at her word, because I'm not beneficii and I don't have sufficient experience to dissect someone's reasons for taking steps to transition. I doubt there's anything I could say here that could possibly be something that beneficii hasn't already thought about herself, possibly at length.

Anyway, I agree with you. It's pretty obnoxious that a workplace would dictate what kind of underwear one wears. I personally find bras uncomfortable to wear for more than a few hours at a time (I wear bras to therapy, which is ~3 hours including transportation, and by the time I get home I want to shred the thing).



beneficii
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22 Jun 2013, 7:28 am

ouinon wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Well, now I've been told off at work for not meeting the dress code--I wasn't wearing a bra. So I've come home to put my bra on and I've started taking my hormones again because I'm not going to have male sweat smell on a bra--eww,

:( Am stunned that a workplace has the right to make a woman(-identified ) employee wear a bra!

Do you really mean that all women-identified workers at your workplace *have to* wear a bra? Or do some women not have to?

Not surprised if you seem to be experiencing a "well of indifference" towards committing more permanently to becoming a woman, ( are you sure that it is really because you fear that you won't be able to afford/sustain the financial efforts required for more sex-change that you have been feeling increasingly uninterested in "being a woman"? ) ... because this sort of rule is just one of the many small but pervasive and invasive ways in which society polices/controls the female body, ( far more than it ever does men's ).
.


Good questions. I assumed it was because the outline of my nipples was showing from under the shirt, which would be seen as inappropriate. It was in response to complaints from a number of coworkers, per my supervisor. Most of my teammates are female, so they may very well have been the generators of those complaints. When I showed back up asking if I met the dress code, he said that I had needed to be wearing some sort of undergarment on my chest, so I guess binder, or perhaps a good shirt preventing the outline of the nipples from showing would have helped,, too? Still, that is controlling. What is so bad about the outline of the nipples showing? What about some big dudes, as my sister asked, who should never be allowed to take off their shirt. LOL.

But I do see the point in your second paragraph. When I did dress up femininely for my therapist's appointment, I found that he joked a lot more with me, interrupted me more*, and made it harder for me to get a word in edgewise--I'm going to talk about that behavior to him next time I see him. It does suck, but the need to transition is still strong, and it's like I can give no good reason for it. Still, to see that drastic change I think provides yet more confirmation to what feminists have been saying about women not being listened to and being talked down to and makes it even harder for the MRA'ers and others to say that stuff ain't going on. My mum asked me just about the same question as you. Since I'm someone that likes to ramble on about my favorite topics, that does make my life harder, but it might just come with the territory.

Since you're on the spectrum and are a woman, how does that make it for you when you want to discuss your interests with others?

Thanks for the questions!

* In the past, he'd interrupt me once or twice to see if I was having pressure of speech, a symptom of mania, but not as much as this.



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22 Jun 2013, 7:41 am

Verdandi wrote:
Beneficii said that she cultivated indifference because of her frustration with being unable to pay for and arrange surgery.

I would hesitate to equate surgery to "becoming a woman" or "more permanently becoming a woman" in any event, because surgery doesn't really mark that point. I've a friend who transitioned to male, had surgery, and then retransitioned back to female after determining that this was a mistake for her. I wouldn't characterize her surgery as "permanently becoming a man" because she quite clearly didn't make a permanent transition. I'd say that the "permanent" qualifier isn't even needed, or the designation "woman-identified" for a transgender woman. If she's a woman, she's a woman, that's all that's really needed. This is partly because I thought "woman-identified" was more an identification with women as a class, a concept in feminism that is supposed to reflect solidarity and common goals, not so much as an individual identification as a woman.

I also think that three posters now have questioned whether beneficii really wants to transition, and I think this is a common instinct for some to question transgender people on whether they really want to do this thing, whether they've really thought it through sufficiently. I personally am just going to take beneficii at her word, because I'm not beneficii and I don't have sufficient experience to dissect someone's reasons for taking steps to transition. I doubt there's anything I could say here that could possibly be something that beneficii hasn't already thought about herself, possibly at length.

Anyway, I agree with you. It's pretty obnoxious that a workplace would dictate what kind of underwear one wears. I personally find bras uncomfortable to wear for more than a few hours at a time (I wear bras to therapy, which is ~3 hours including transportation, and by the time I get home I want to shred the thing).


Thanks, but she does bring up some valid feminist points, as well (viz. the differential treatment).



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22 Jun 2013, 9:54 pm

beneficii wrote:
Thanks, but she does bring up some valid feminist points, as well (viz. the differential treatment).


Yes, although I do not usually address points I agree with unless they're really new to me.



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23 Jun 2013, 1:34 am

I think it might be important to remember that being female is not really about the superficial things... the hair, the clothes, the make-up. Plenty of people who were born female, identify as female, and are seen as female, still don't like being forced into the female stereotype. And practically no real-life women actually fulfill that stereotype a hundred percent anyway.

Because you're autistic, you don't automatically soak up stereotypes, and even while understanding that you are female, you may still not identify with those ideas about what a female is supposed to be--and you shouldn't have to force yourself into them. YOU know what kind of person you are, and that is probably more important than any other factor. Gender identity in AS is often not particularly socially-oriented.

I'm a cis female and so I'm okay with being thought of as female, but I don't fit the female stereotype. I don't wear make-up. I like math. Snakes and spiders are interesting, not gross or scary. I wear a buzz cut. So my relationship with my gender is mostly that I wish people didn't expect me to be one way or the other, and I wish people didn't think of gender as some kind of huge defining characteristic about me. My gender is about as important to me as my hair color and psychologically, I'm practically androgynous. But I'm as valid a female as a super-feminine type who loves ribbons and fluff and sappy romance movies.

People, including trans people, shouldn't have to squeeze themselves into little boxes labeled with their gender. Okay, yeah, you might have to follow the dress code, but beyond that, you gotta be the kind of girl you want to be, not the kind of girl people say you should be.

Good luck with the executive dysfunction bit, though. I know how that goes. I cut my hair very short just so I don't have to deal with it; I wear no make-up, and the same types of clothes every day. I do some very "non-girly" things because otherwise things take too much time. But it's not an absolute that if you're autistic you have to give up on stuff that takes a long time just because it's not strictly necessary for survival. Get creative and find yourself some shortcuts that work for you, try to simplify the tasks and shorten the time a bit so that you get a nice professional look without having to fiddle around with clothes and hair and things for ages in the morning.

By the way--have you tried a simple cotton sports bra? I find them very comfortable, and if your shirt has a collar, the straps won't show.


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23 Jun 2013, 1:55 am

Aren't they supposed to check your mental health to ensure you are genuinely transsexual rather than just confused or going through a phase before they start you on the path to transition? Because you don't at all sound like you're "there" in that decision.



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23 Jun 2013, 2:01 am

Callista wrote:
I think it might be important to remember that being female is not really about the superficial things... the hair, the clothes, the make-up. Plenty of people who were born female, identify as female, and are seen as female, still don't like being forced into the female stereotype. And practically no real-life women actually fulfill that stereotype a hundred percent anyway.

Because you're autistic, you don't automatically soak up stereotypes, and even while understanding that you are female, you may still not identify with those ideas about what a female is supposed to be--and you shouldn't have to force yourself into them. YOU know what kind of person you are, and that is probably more important than any other factor. Gender identity in AS is often not particularly socially-oriented.

I'm a cis female and so I'm okay with being thought of as female, but I don't fit the female stereotype. I don't wear make-up. I like math. Snakes and spiders are interesting, not gross or scary. I wear a buzz cut. So my relationship with my gender is mostly that I wish people didn't expect me to be one way or the other, and I wish people didn't think of gender as some kind of huge defining characteristic about me. My gender is about as important to me as my hair color and psychologically, I'm practically androgynous. But I'm as valid a female as a super-feminine type who loves ribbons and fluff and sappy romance movies.

People, including trans people, shouldn't have to squeeze themselves into little boxes labeled with their gender. Okay, yeah, you might have to follow the dress code, but beyond that, you gotta be the kind of girl you want to be, not the kind of girl people say you should be.

Good luck with the executive dysfunction bit, though. I know how that goes. I cut my hair very short just so I don't have to deal with it; I wear no make-up, and the same types of clothes every day. I do some very "non-girly" things because otherwise things take too much time. But it's not an absolute that if you're autistic you have to give up on stuff that takes a long time just because it's not strictly necessary for survival. Get creative and find yourself some shortcuts that work for you, try to simplify the tasks and shorten the time a bit so that you get a nice professional look without having to fiddle around with clothes and hair and things for ages in the morning.

By the way--have you tried a simple cotton sports bra? I find them very comfortable, and if your shirt has a collar, the straps won't show.


Thanks. This may be relevant:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5466090.html#5466090

Nevertheless, I like having a sorta girlie, but tomboy look. I don't want a buzzcut. I found something very simple, big sexy hair spray, which works well. I had been finding shortcuts for a while. I don't plan on being a stereotype, though. Still, it is important to be yourself, and I've got a new routine to work into. Still, I wanna dress nice and feminine, and I want to look good in a suit, etc. Still, for now, at least, my skin is good enough to avoid makeup. In order to do business, though, I may have to practice it.

It's good you found something that works for you. :)



Last edited by beneficii on 23 Jun 2013, 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Jun 2013, 2:04 am

Noetic wrote:
Aren't they supposed to check your mental health to ensure you are genuinely transsexual rather than just confused or going through a phase before they start you on the path to transition? Because you don't at all sound like you're "there" in that decision.


I transitioned full-time to female before (or rather in between) the mental health issues. The stress of the transition, though, may have contributed to their development. Actually, de-transitioning would be something I should do when I'm mentally healthy again, if at all. But how don't I sound like I'm "there"? Is it the thinking process or something? I know I've been having problems with thinking and emotions lately and my mind feels kinda jumbled up right now.



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23 Jun 2013, 7:35 am

beneficii wrote:
Popsicle wrote:
Probably just keep scrupulous personal hygiene and wear a bra when you leave the house always, until you figure things out.

SRS is permanent, and you should by law be in counseling to help you sort feelings, before any surgeon will do that surgery, as I understand the law.

In my layperson opinion you should sort this with some professionals, but until then, take care of yourself so as not to add any new problems, like trouble at work.

Good luck.


That second paragraph rouses some old ire. Wanna know why? Hint: it teaches me nothing new and reminds me of the source of my rages.

Maybe it is hopeless for me with my executive dysfunction and I should just wear a binder and return to a male ASAP.


It was not my intention to "rouse some old ire." I thought we were asked for our thoughts and advice and I tried to give both.

I have no way of knowing what you know or don't know, or whether you are under a doctor's care or left to flounder on your own at this point. I also do not know you well enough to know that reminding you that the law/doctors have an obligation to you would be a "source of your rages." (If it was even that part; that's unclear.)

I'm not sure what your next statement meant, but it sounds like something made you despair, for a moment. I'm not sure why. Nothing I actually said, came anywhere close to that. "Old ire" means I'm being targeted for something that happened to you long ago, i.e. I didn't deserve the anger. Also, someone else asked you the same thing and you replied calmly to them. :?:



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23 Jun 2013, 7:44 am

Popsicle wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Popsicle wrote:
Probably just keep scrupulous personal hygiene and wear a bra when you leave the house always, until you figure things out.

SRS is permanent, and you should by law be in counseling to help you sort feelings, before any surgeon will do that surgery, as I understand the law.

In my layperson opinion you should sort this with some professionals, but until then, take care of yourself so as not to add any new problems, like trouble at work.

Good luck.


That second paragraph rouses some old ire. Wanna know why? Hint: it teaches me nothing new and reminds me of the source of my rages.

Maybe it is hopeless for me with my executive dysfunction and I should just wear a binder and return to a male ASAP.


It was not my intention to "rouse some old ire." I thought we were asked for our thoughts and advice and I tried to give both.

I have no way of knowing what you know or don't know, or whether you are under a doctor's care or left to flounder on your own at this point. I also do not know you well enough to know that reminding you that the law/doctors have an obligation to you would be a "source of your rages." (If it was even that part; that's unclear.)

I'm not sure what your next statement meant, but it sounds like something made you despair, for a moment. I'm not sure why. Nothing I actually said, came anywhere close to that. "Old ire" means I'm being targeted for something that happened to you long ago, i.e. I didn't deserve the anger. Also, someone else asked you the same thing and you replied calmly to them. :?:


If you read another response to your post, there is no "law" on the matter, not in the States. I will tell you the source of the ire; you see, in the States, what matters not is what your doctors says so much as if you've got the $$$$$$$ (think upper thousands of dollars/upper thousands of Euros at least to go to Thailand)--unless you can get the rare insurance plan that covers it. That is the source of my rages, cuz I ain't got much and executive dysfunction makes it difficult to save up. The stress of that knowledge caused me to break down mentally late last year and I still haven't completely recovered, as I'm sure you can tell.

Were I born in, say, Germany, I'd probably already have had the surgery, because I wouldn't have broken down in response to that, as not €€€€€€€ but rather doctor's approval is important there, and would have been able to get better support.

I just want some hope.

And for future advice, please stop posting "advice" you haven't checked out yet.



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23 Jun 2013, 7:53 am

Quote:
And for future advice, please stop posting "advice" you haven't checked out yet.


Wow...I didn't say I was an expert. I said I thought so. (That means, feel free to correct me.) You only had to give me the correct information.

None of what you are angry about is my fault.

That wasn't the only thing I gave advice about either and it wasn't even clear why you were angry and it still isn't clear why when someone else said the same thing, you were fine with that.

Obviously I unwittingly touched a nerve and I'm being unfairly blasted for it. I feel very bad for both of us because projecting rage onto me for something I have nothing to do with, other than trying to be helpful, doesn't help either of us.

I didn't realize money was the problem. I thought it was ambivalence if you even wanted to do the operation. That's why I recommended someone to help you sort that out. Seemed logical to me.

I apologize for upsetting you but it was not on purpose by any means.

Quote:
I just want some hope.


The OP did not say what you wanted, only that you resented being told to wear a bra (women have to, sorry), and that you were very ambivalent if you still want to be female or not. I would gladly try to give you hope if I knew what you wanted. As it was unclear I recommended a counselor to help you sort out this very important, crucial and irreversible process. To me that is kind advice. :(



Last edited by Popsicle on 23 Jun 2013, 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

beneficii
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23 Jun 2013, 7:56 am

Popsicle wrote:
Wow...I didn't say I was an expert. I said I thought so. (That means, feel free to correct me.) You only had to give me the correct information.

None of what you are angry about is my fault.

That wasn't the only thing I gave advice about either and it wasn't even clear why you were angry and it still isn't clear why when someone else said the same thing, you were fine with that.

Obviously I unwittingly touched a nerve and I'm being unfairly blasted for it. I feel very bad for both of us because projecting rage onto me for something I have nothing to do with, other than trying to be helpful, doesn't help either of us.

I didn't realize money was the problem. I thought it was ambivalence if you even wanted to do the operation. That's why I recommended someone to help you sort that out. Seemed logical to me.

I apologize for upsetting you but it was not on purpose by any means.


I apologize for my reaction. I am not currently angry at you.

EDIT: Yes, I do have a psychiatrist and a psychologist I'm seeing. I'm diagnosed with unspecified bipolar disorder at the moment and am receiving treatment for that. Of course, that is no excuse for getting angry at you, but you mentioned you didn't know whether I had a doctor or was just floundering. Thankfully, I have enough money to see a doctor, or I could be floundering with that, too.



Last edited by beneficii on 23 Jun 2013, 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Jun 2013, 7:57 am

beneficii wrote:
Popsicle wrote:
Wow...I didn't say I was an expert. I said I thought so. (That means, feel free to correct me.) You only had to give me the correct information.

None of what you are angry about is my fault.

That wasn't the only thing I gave advice about either and it wasn't even clear why you were angry and it still isn't clear why when someone else said the same thing, you were fine with that.

Obviously I unwittingly touched a nerve and I'm being unfairly blasted for it. I feel very bad for both of us because projecting rage onto me for something I have nothing to do with, other than trying to be helpful, doesn't help either of us.

I didn't realize money was the problem. I thought it was ambivalence if you even wanted to do the operation. That's why I recommended someone to help you sort that out. Seemed logical to me.

I apologize for upsetting you but it was not on purpose by any means.


I apologize for my reaction. I am not currently angry at you.


Thank you for that and your apology is accepted. The last thing I want to do is upset anybody. If it helps, I think you are very very brave.



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23 Jun 2013, 8:08 am

Popsicle wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Popsicle wrote:
Wow...I didn't say I was an expert. I said I thought so. (That means, feel free to correct me.) You only had to give me the correct information.

None of what you are angry about is my fault.

That wasn't the only thing I gave advice about either and it wasn't even clear why you were angry and it still isn't clear why when someone else said the same thing, you were fine with that.

Obviously I unwittingly touched a nerve and I'm being unfairly blasted for it. I feel very bad for both of us because projecting rage onto me for something I have nothing to do with, other than trying to be helpful, doesn't help either of us.

I didn't realize money was the problem. I thought it was ambivalence if you even wanted to do the operation. That's why I recommended someone to help you sort that out. Seemed logical to me.

I apologize for upsetting you but it was not on purpose by any means.


I apologize for my reaction. I am not currently angry at you.


Thank you for that and your apology is accepted. The last thing I want to do is upset anybody. If it helps, I think you are very very brave.


BTW, if you're wanting an explanation, not an excuse (as I shouldn't have snapped at you), but an explanation, I have an unspecified bipolar disorder. That means I can get sharp mood changes on the order of hours and sometimes have idiosyncratic reactions. I am under a doctor's care and not floundering. Thank you for your concern in that regard. :)