why do some people consider low functioning inferior ?
14 Dec 2013, 9:13 pm
I've just been reading up on how people saw people with intellectual disabilities in the 1800s and it was more in fear than in the type of smug indifference we see around today. It got me thinking that if this fear carried on into this generation, because scientists have found that certain personalities can carry on into future generations. Or it could be the fact that people just don't like differences and want to feel smarter or more powerful than those who seem to be less than average.
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14 Dec 2013, 9:44 pm
littlebee wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I am not trying to deny that littlebee cares about people. To be honest I can't tell if she does or not because while she says she does, the things she says to people and tells them to do or not do tend to be spectacularly callous and diminish basically everything they have to deal with.
So whatever she thinks deep down in her heart, what she says and does still has a particular kind of impact. If she really does care, then she should seriously examine herself and find out why the way she does it is so manipulative and focused so much on discouraging people from advocating for themselves or speaking out or acting against injustice.
This is great stuff, Vernandi, ha ha. Actually I am ENCOURGING people to be activists, conscious rather than mechanical reactive activists so showing a way to be better, more effective activists.
Using emotionally loaded words to convince people to do something other than what they determine to be in their own best self-interest, and even trying to convince people that she knows better than they do what their best self-interest is.
You are just talking through your hat and blowing air (in this but not all instances) which weakens the affect of anything you may have to say that may have some truth to it. I am on here for enquire and enquiry encourages people to think actively. I am also encouraging people to be active and actually do something. There is good evidence of this on another thread, which I will be going back to, eventually and pointing out.
I am suspicious of anyone who spends most of their time telling people that the things they are doing, in some cases things they need to do, are dangerous, or is harmful to humanity. I don't see the point in mincing words over that
If you are talking about me, this is wrong. I do think that playing the autism card, which there are many good examples of io some writings on this thread, may be harmful to humanity, which is why I started a thread to enquire into this subject..Moreover, I do not spend most of my time telling anyone what they are doing is wrong (though this does kind of seem like what you are doing:-). I am actually working to support myself, which is not easy, and this is what I am spending most of my time doing. I do think that playing the autism card from an emotional angle is a form of psychological disorder which will not make any one healthy or happy, and that encouraging others to play this card is a form of enabling. This does not include advocating for the rights of autistic people or anyone, which I am in no way against.
[b]However, the real reason am replying to this is because of the comment below, which is quite wonderful. This is what I like about you, Verdandi. You are very smart and able to hone in from a certain angle, but somehow not still not quite getting what I am saying (though it is my heartfelt wish that you do get it, as what I am saying would empower you to be able to help a lot of people), so in this sense it is very easy to present certain ideas in response to you message. I am sorry if what I am writing is distressing you, but bear in mind that I am also giving you an opportunity to present your own perspective, as I do not seem to be quite getting it from the angle you are presenting, do I?:-).)[/b] .
. So, littlebee, if you really care about people, take your own advice and work on yourself before trying to tell everyone else what they should and should not be doing.
I love this. Actually, it is possible to focus on Work at the same time one is, as you put it, telling other people what they should be doing, though by my definition of Work, this would take a lot of practice. The new focus from my end is going to be about Work. I have put a capital letter on the word Work because it is so important. Thank you. Again, the new focus from my angle, though maybe not from yours, is going to be on Work, and bear in mind, dear heart, that no one has to do anything I am suggesting, even Work. In fact if some do not want to Work or want to pretend they are Working when they are not, then I suggest to go ahead and do that, as no one can stop you, nor would I even want to, as the intent to Work in the way I am speaking of it, needs to come from within oneself.
Of course no one knows if another person is working or not, but by my definition, which I have not yet completely given, most people are not, as humanity would not be in the position it is in. Secondly, I have already spent over fifty years trying to work on myself (though never, never enough), and because of this I am maybe now in a position to be able to talk about Work to others and present the concept of Work. This is in no way to suggest that I do not need to continue to Work, am ever Working enough, or cannot benefit by being reminded to focus on Work.
.Because right now what you're doing does not demonstrate caring. It is manipulative and controlling and gaslighting.
Hmm, Verdandi. Seems to me you are doing this yourself. The focus now is going to be on Work. Speaking from my angle, of course, meaning what I will be writing about and focusing on. No one has to go along with it, but probably a few will will, as Work, especially individual Work in the context and with the support of a group gives great weight and so is force which can actually change the world. And anyone interested in being an activist instead of just blowing wind, I suggest to check this out....
So whatever she thinks deep down in her heart, what she says and does still has a particular kind of impact. If she really does care, then she should seriously examine herself and find out why the way she does it is so manipulative and focused so much on discouraging people from advocating for themselves or speaking out or acting against injustice.
This is great stuff, Vernandi, ha ha. Actually I am ENCOURGING people to be activists, conscious rather than mechanical reactive activists so showing a way to be better, more effective activists.
Using emotionally loaded words to convince people to do something other than what they determine to be in their own best self-interest, and even trying to convince people that she knows better than they do what their best self-interest is.
You are just talking through your hat and blowing air (in this but not all instances) which weakens the affect of anything you may have to say that may have some truth to it. I am on here for enquire and enquiry encourages people to think actively. I am also encouraging people to be active and actually do something. There is good evidence of this on another thread, which I will be going back to, eventually and pointing out.
I am suspicious of anyone who spends most of their time telling people that the things they are doing, in some cases things they need to do, are dangerous, or is harmful to humanity. I don't see the point in mincing words over that
If you are talking about me, this is wrong. I do think that playing the autism card, which there are many good examples of io some writings on this thread, may be harmful to humanity, which is why I started a thread to enquire into this subject..Moreover, I do not spend most of my time telling anyone what they are doing is wrong (though this does kind of seem like what you are doing:-). I am actually working to support myself, which is not easy, and this is what I am spending most of my time doing. I do think that playing the autism card from an emotional angle is a form of psychological disorder which will not make any one healthy or happy, and that encouraging others to play this card is a form of enabling. This does not include advocating for the rights of autistic people or anyone, which I am in no way against.
[b]However, the real reason am replying to this is because of the comment below, which is quite wonderful. This is what I like about you, Verdandi. You are very smart and able to hone in from a certain angle, but somehow not still not quite getting what I am saying (though it is my heartfelt wish that you do get it, as what I am saying would empower you to be able to help a lot of people), so in this sense it is very easy to present certain ideas in response to you message. I am sorry if what I am writing is distressing you, but bear in mind that I am also giving you an opportunity to present your own perspective, as I do not seem to be quite getting it from the angle you are presenting, do I?:-).)[/b] .
. So, littlebee, if you really care about people, take your own advice and work on yourself before trying to tell everyone else what they should and should not be doing.
I love this. Actually, it is possible to focus on Work at the same time one is, as you put it, telling other people what they should be doing, though by my definition of Work, this would take a lot of practice. The new focus from my end is going to be about Work. I have put a capital letter on the word Work because it is so important. Thank you. Again, the new focus from my angle, though maybe not from yours, is going to be on Work, and bear in mind, dear heart, that no one has to do anything I am suggesting, even Work. In fact if some do not want to Work or want to pretend they are Working when they are not, then I suggest to go ahead and do that, as no one can stop you, nor would I even want to, as the intent to Work in the way I am speaking of it, needs to come from within oneself.
Of course no one knows if another person is working or not, but by my definition, which I have not yet completely given, most people are not, as humanity would not be in the position it is in. Secondly, I have already spent over fifty years trying to work on myself (though never, never enough), and because of this I am maybe now in a position to be able to talk about Work to others and present the concept of Work. This is in no way to suggest that I do not need to continue to Work, am ever Working enough, or cannot benefit by being reminded to focus on Work.
.Because right now what you're doing does not demonstrate caring. It is manipulative and controlling and gaslighting.
Hmm, Verdandi. Seems to me you are doing this yourself. The focus now is going to be on Work. Speaking from my angle, of course, meaning what I will be writing about and focusing on. No one has to go along with it, but probably a few will will, as Work, especially individual Work in the context and with the support of a group gives great weight and so is force which can actually change the world. And anyone interested in being an activist instead of just blowing wind, I suggest to check this out....
To the op of this thread. Thank you. You asked a real question, an important question from within yourself, from your genuine and sincere feelings about yourself, about others and about life and imo have opened a very key subject to be enquired into. There is no way I am saying what you are feeling is not important, and I am in no way attempting to invalidate your feeling or your being as a person. I have found some of your responses to be very encouraging because I see your mind as fresh and open, and this gives me hope to continue, both in my personal life and in writing here. .
this means a lot when I first posted this tread I was unsure and I felt bad about asking this I never wanted to upset anyone but know I realize It wasn't such a bad thing to ask after all.
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14 Dec 2013, 10:06 pm
littlebee wrote:
Hmm, Verdandi. Seems to me you are doing this yourself. The focus now is going to be on Work. Speaking from my angle, of course, meaning what I will be writing about and focusing on. No one has to go along with it, but probably a few will will, as Work, especially individual Work in the context and with the support of a group gives great weight and so is force which can actually change the world. And anyone interested in being an activist instead of just blowing wind, I suggest to check this out...
Well, you can say I am doing this, but only one of us is accusing people who speak out against the injustice they perceive of being dramatic, telling them that instead of speaking out against that injustice they should strictly work on themselves and their self-esteem and sense of inferiority. Only one of us is telling people to stop talking, to stop speaking their truths. Only one of us says outright that some autistic people are inferior. Only one of us tries to convince everyone that talking cannot be activism (and is apparently "blowing wind" instead). Only one of us is ordering people to quit their jobs and travel to talk about torture. Only one of us said that talking about torture is "harmful to humanity." Only one of us has started multiple threads in an attempt to frame autism in a particular context that never quite becomes clear. Only one of us makes passive-aggressive snipes at people. Only one of us chooses to praise the most melodramatic, trolling members of this site while trying to position those who disagree with her as melodramatic or trolling. Only one of us says that we do not have the right to ask for things that we are supposed to have access to by law. Only one of us consistently minimizes other people's difficulties by setting up false dichotomies in which some autistic people are too impaired to function or understand these discussions and others are too mildly impaired to need any help, any assistance. Only one of us seems to be invested in preventing people from talking about their real needs, real difficulties, and the real discrimination they experience. Only one of us has accused anyone of committing slander by writing the truth. Only one of us is doing these things and... it's not me.
So, you can say that I am being manipulative and gaslighting and controlling, but that would be completely false, and a deflection from the fact that you have been doing these things for quite some time now. Tu quoque fallacies aren't applicable even if your accusation were true.
You get away with it because you dress your passive aggression, your gaslighting, and your manipulation up in faux politeness and "nice" phrasing. If these are things you do not want to do, then perhaps you should stop doing them.
Essentially, you are Dolores Umbridge. but without the power she had.
15 Dec 2013, 5:38 am
Verdandi wrote:
It seems to me that NTs basically treat developmentally disabled people (including all autistic people) in a condescending way, they often treat us like children. Or at least do not give us credit for being us.
True
Verdandi wrote:
You really can't make a blanket statement like this about autistic people. either. Not all "Aspies" have hangups about "disability tags" or worry about drawing attention to their own social shortcomings (I don't have these)..
True, but I was trying to convey perceptions that many Apsies (like it or not) do have...sometimes making statements and observations without knowing what statistical proportion they represent is cumbersome and clumsy. On the other hand I take your point and its cognitively lazy of me.
15 Dec 2013, 12:05 pm
Verdandi wrote:
littlebee wrote:
You asked a question about why some people consider low functioning inferior? It has already been explained. Because it IS inferior. I have all kinds of problems functioning, compounded with some kind of brain damage, and I have to face that and accept it, which is admittedly very difficult, especially regarding the brain damage.. I do not like to face it at all, but I have to face it in order to be me, and most interestingly, when I do face it, instead of blaming other people and fighting them, than my brain works much better. Then I AM and I can begin to DO rather than react.
Saying people are inferior causes human suffering.
Yes it does, but I did not say this, Verdandi. I said because "it" is inferior. This "it" refers to the level of functioning, not the person.
Not to discount that there are people who simply feel superior to other people, but some people want and need people who are not even feeling this way to be feeling this way. Because the meaning of these web spinners seems to be hinged on grudge holding and fight, they will try to fit other people and situations into their own frame even though in reality they do not fit. To the op, I really do not see you are doing this, but more as functioning from a question.
Does everyone who has been reading here now understand the difference between low functioning being considered inferior to higher functioning (in the context of efficiency and ability to perform various deeds) and a person himself being felt by someone else to be inferior?
Now perhaps those of us who have understood this are ready to move on to the next stage of enquiry. Processing new ideas and beginning to understand them can be a form of Work, but is is well rewarded as active thinking can transform the mind from a mind of suffering into a minds of happiness.
One thing, Verdandi, is that since in your response it is obvious you are creating a false slant, I think this is your way of saying hello. Also makes for some good theater, as opposed to bad drama, if a person knows how to use it:-) So much of what we want and need to be given, we can receive, as the world is waiting to give it to us. And, yes, it is possible to be an activist without having any of these feelings of grudge holding and anger and without needing to create any kind of false slant;
To enter a different paradigm can feel like dying. It is like dying. This is how it has been for me. I think it has to be done little by little, step by step. Nobody could expect anyone to do it all at once, or even to do it at all. It is a matter of personal choice, and if a person is called to do it or not..I think being called is the language area of ones own brain speaking to ones inner self connecting with the heart and telling oneself to go in a certain direction despite whatever obstacles are going to be encountered..And help does come. This is what the fairy tales are about, the quest of the hero.
15 Dec 2013, 3:15 pm
Quote:
Yes it does, but I did not say this, Verdandi. I said because "it" is inferior. This "it" refers to the level of functioning, not the person.
Isn't that kind of a trivial statement to make? I mean statements like: Someone who cannot speak has speaking skills that are inferior to the speaking skills of someone who can speak meaningfully.
The trouble with this, is that if you take this to mean "globally inferior" (i.e., less desirable, less satisfying, less conducive to happiness) rather than "specifically inferior" (being worse at talking), then you are starting to make assumptions that may not be true.
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15 Dec 2013, 3:30 pm
Callista wrote:
Quote:
Yes it does, but I did not say this, Verdandi. I said because "it" is inferior. This "it" refers to the level of functioning, not the person.
Isn't that kind of a trivial statement to make? I mean statements like: Someone who cannot speak has speaking skills that are inferior to the speaking skills of someone who can speak meaningfully.Thanks for the reply, which I consider to be in the nature of genuine enquiry.. No ,in my opinion, this is not a trivial statement, but you make an interesting point. I will try to go into this in detail, but no time now..
The trouble with this, is that if you take this to mean "globally inferior" (i.e., less desirable, less satisfying, less conducive to happiness) rather than "specifically inferior" (being worse at talking), then you are starting to make assumptions that may not be true
Yes, completely agreed, and, if she is as smart as I suspect she is, I think this is the angle Verdandi may have been coming from, too, in the message she made which I just responded to.. .
15 Dec 2013, 10:04 pm
littlebee wrote:
Yes it does, but I did not say this, Verdandi. I said because "it" is inferior. This "it" refers to the level of functioning, not the person..
I think you were one of the Aspies I was casting as an example of why LFA people have potential problems interacting with higher functioning folks on the spectrum.
Inferiority in function is essentially saying they are disabled. Now given NTs already consider the majority of us disabled you are therefore using the same dodgy yardstick to label your fellow autistics.
Something I said earlier may have caused confusion; People who are diagnosed or labelled as "low functioning" may have similar social hurdles in engaging with High functioning Aspies as they would with an NT. This is a perception on their part rather than some type of gradation scale of acceptance. It does not invalidate the many Aspies who do make friends or spend time with non-verbal Autistics but the reality is that's the minority rather than the majority of Aspies (people are welcome to correct me here if they wish).
It doesn't help when many parents brainwash Aspie kids into thinking they are better than everyone else.
16 Dec 2013, 3:06 am
cyberdad wrote:
littlebee wrote:
Yes it does, but I did not say this, Verdandi. I said because "it" is inferior. This "it" refers to the level of functioning, not the person..
I think you were one of the Aspies I was casting as an example of why LFA people have potential problems interacting with higher functioning folks on the spectrum.
I have never once thought of anybody on this system as even being lower functioning autistic in the way you seem to, To me the young people on Best Kept Secret are more in this category. They would not be able to even participate on WP. the best I can tell.
Inferiority in function is essentially saying they are disabled.
Inferiority in function is simply that. I suppose you coould call it a disability,though.What's yr point?
Now given NTs already consider the majority of us disabled you are therefore using the same dodgy yardstick to label your fellow autistics.
A very convoluted and to me non-sensical comment, plus I don't consider anybody my fellow autistic because I do not think of myself in this way or of other people in this way. I consider myself just me and all people my fellows, though there are people I fit in with, such as musicians, the people I was jamming with today, or the people who have the same job as me, but I do not go around thinking of myself as a musician or a person with a certain job, either. I just am. And, oh, by the way, "I'm nobody, Who are you? Are you nobody, too? Then there's a pair of us. Don't tell. They'd banish us, you know." :-)
Something I said earlier may have caused confusion; People who are diagnosed or labelled as "low functioning" may have similar social hurdles in engaging with High functioning Aspies as they would with an NT.
Too much thinking about people and their types. You and others here are doing this, not me.
This is a perception on their part rather than some type of gradation scale of acceptance. It does not invalidate the many Aspies who do make friends or spend time with non-verbal Autistics but the reality is that's the minority rather than the majority of Aspies (people are welcome to correct me here if they wish).
I do not get the functional value of this comment. To me it is just going into the nether, though I'm sure it means something to you.
It doesn't help when many parents brainwash Aspie kids into thinking they are better than everyone else
Too much thinking about how other people are thinking they are better. I hope any young people reading here will take note and not fall into this pit, or, if you already have started to, stop now and begin to pull yourselves out of it..
16 Dec 2013, 11:33 am
Some more comments to Cyberdad and to some others, especially young people on this system. I was very tired when I wrote my last message. Hope the main point got across: Do not waste your time thinking and stewing over how other people think and feel about you. It will drain your own power and intellectually lead you into a maze.
Self acceptance is where love starts. I know many others have tried to make this point, and that is good, but here is the problem with the way some are presenting material around this--- generally is is better to have idea contrast in order to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially on the internet, but in terms of self-acceptance that is not necessary as the emotional pain is already there and it is by thinking about this or that that we move away fiom feeling it. The beginning of self acceptance is to simply feel what one is feeling and not deflect feeling it by thinking about either oneself and/or someone else. As I have said, anger is a common screen for sorrow, so a way not to feel something.
To Cyberdad, in terms of what you call low functioning, people on this system feeling this or that about aspies or feeling or not feeling the way aspies feel about nt's--=everybody feels this way about someone or other. I would not dwell on it. Rather I would try not to fall victim to it, as you are making yourself a victim. When you think about it and constantly dwell on i, that is a form of disorder. Also the way some aspies on here are thinking and talking about nt's and encouraging new people to this system, especially young people, to think this way is a disorder. To me it is really not smart.
All kinds of people look down on me. They look down on me on my street because I do not own a great big house but rather am at the very end of the street in an apartment building with 'ordinary' people. Some shop owners look down on me on my job because I am not a shop owner like them but am just a crafts person and also because they see me talking to all kinds of street people..Generally the people who look down on others do have low self esteem.That can be seen in a glance, but sometimes it givers me a cold feeling, and I am sure for some others here with more overt disabilities---whoops...am I even allowed to use this word?--and in more insular less urban areas, it is much much worse. My suggestion is to learn to work on it from you own end, as why these people look down on you really has nothing much to do with you, with who you are, so focus on yourself and get stronger.
16 Dec 2013, 5:54 pm
littlebee wrote:
Some more comments to Cyberdad and to some others, especially young people on this system. I was very tired when I wrote my last message. Hope the main point got across: Do not waste your time thinking and stewing over how other people think and feel about you. It will drain your own power and intellectually lead you into a maze.
I do not understand why you keep saying things like this.
Do you think people on this thread are worrying too much about what others think of them? -- if so, what is it that makes you think this?
Are you offering a sort of caution to people, just in case they might become too worried about it?
If it's something else, could you please explain?
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16 Dec 2013, 7:52 pm
littlebee wrote:
I have never once thought of anybody on this system as even being lower functioning autistic in the way you seem to, To me the young people on Best Kept Secret are more in this category. They would not be able to even participate on WP. the best I can tell.
See, the fact that you say this is terrible. I am not even up to deconstructing the whys of it. It's just terrible and you should step back and really consider why you'd say something like this about people you do not even know.
There are at least a handful of people on this forum who would be described as "low functioning autistic" and accurately in the sense of how the term is applied (and yes, I still disagree with how the term is applied). I want to get into more analysis, but no. What you stated is terrible and wrong. It is factually incorrect. It shouldn't be stated at least partly for the same reasons one shouldn't say "the sun comes out at night" or "Water is not wet."
16 Dec 2013, 9:10 pm
littlebee wrote:
Some more comments to Cyberdad and to some others, especially young people on this system. I was very tired when I wrote my last message. Hope the main point got across: Do not waste your time thinking and stewing over how other people think and feel about you. It will drain your own power and intellectually lead you into a maze.
Self acceptance is where love starts. I know many others have tried to make this point, and that is good, but here is the problem with the way some are presenting material around this--- generally is is better to have idea contrast in order to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially on the internet, but in terms of self-acceptance that is not necessary as the emotional pain is already there and it is by thinking about this or that that we move away fiom feeling it. The beginning of self acceptance is to simply feel what one is feeling and not deflect feeling it by thinking about either oneself and/or someone else. As I have said, anger is a common screen for sorrow, so a way not to feel something.
To Cyberdad, in terms of what you call low functioning, people on this system feeling this or that about aspies or feeling or not feeling the way aspies feel about nt's--=everybody feels this way about someone or other. I would not dwell on it. Rather I would try not to fall victim to it, as you are making yourself a victim. When you think about it and constantly dwell on i, that is a form of disorder. Also the way some aspies on here are thinking and talking about nt's and encouraging new people to this system, especially young people, to think this way is a disorder. To me it is really not smart.
All kinds of people look down on me. They look down on me on my street because I do not own a great big house but rather am at the very end of the street in an apartment building with 'ordinary' people. Some shop owners look down on me on my job because I am not a shop owner like them but am just a crafts person and also because they see me talking to all kinds of street people..Generally the people who look down on others do have low self esteem.That can be seen in a glance, but sometimes it givers me a cold feeling, and I am sure for some others here with more overt disabilities---whoops...am I even allowed to use this word?--and in more insular less urban areas, it is much much worse. My suggestion is to learn to work on it from you own end, as why these people look down on you really has nothing much to do with you, with who you are, so focus on yourself and get stronger.
Self acceptance is where love starts. I know many others have tried to make this point, and that is good, but here is the problem with the way some are presenting material around this--- generally is is better to have idea contrast in order to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially on the internet, but in terms of self-acceptance that is not necessary as the emotional pain is already there and it is by thinking about this or that that we move away fiom feeling it. The beginning of self acceptance is to simply feel what one is feeling and not deflect feeling it by thinking about either oneself and/or someone else. As I have said, anger is a common screen for sorrow, so a way not to feel something.
To Cyberdad, in terms of what you call low functioning, people on this system feeling this or that about aspies or feeling or not feeling the way aspies feel about nt's--=everybody feels this way about someone or other. I would not dwell on it. Rather I would try not to fall victim to it, as you are making yourself a victim. When you think about it and constantly dwell on i, that is a form of disorder. Also the way some aspies on here are thinking and talking about nt's and encouraging new people to this system, especially young people, to think this way is a disorder. To me it is really not smart.
All kinds of people look down on me. They look down on me on my street because I do not own a great big house but rather am at the very end of the street in an apartment building with 'ordinary' people. Some shop owners look down on me on my job because I am not a shop owner like them but am just a crafts person and also because they see me talking to all kinds of street people..Generally the people who look down on others do have low self esteem.That can be seen in a glance, but sometimes it givers me a cold feeling, and I am sure for some others here with more overt disabilities---whoops...am I even allowed to use this word?--and in more insular less urban areas, it is much much worse. My suggestion is to learn to work on it from you own end, as why these people look down on you really has nothing much to do with you, with who you are, so focus on yourself and get stronger.
I take your points, ( and you make some very good ones) however you did say earlier that lower functioning is "inferior"...to me that's not a very appropriate thing to say...
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