why do some people consider low functioning inferior ?

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07 Dec 2013, 3:25 pm

Littlebee, I am not talking about human insensitivity or bad parenting. I am talking about pathology.
It would be nice to have a cure for psychopathy.

jenisautistic
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08 Dec 2013, 12:12 am

Marybird wrote:

I think all autistics are beautiful people and none of them are inferior human beings.
The only people I think are inferior are sociopaths. I have been abused and gas lighted by such people. Researchers should look for a cure for that.

Well said. I completely agree with you that's what this thread is about. also its not specifically directed towed any one here I was mostly referring to aspies and who I have heard talking about how autism speaks only shows lower functioning people and how they should not be cured and when asked about the lower functionig being cured don't give a second thought about it and try to distance themselves as far away from autism as possible or nt parents of low functioning kids justifying it by saying oh your nothing like my son why would you ever go anti cure with out considering my poor diseased son, don't compare as with my child. don't get me wrong if I could stop getting sensory overload and get rid my physical delays I would however .... wait a minute I think this is better explained in a quote.

littlebee wrote:

jenisautistic wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior. They simply function in an inferior way; that's why it's called low functioning. You can go ahead and say that saying this is ableist or cruel or just plain mean. But let's be real, if you had to choose between being a high functioning aspie or a low functioning autistic, which would you pick? No lying now.

im not talking about functioning levels Im talking about socially like the class system in a sense.

honesty im not intiry sure - I have both low and high functioning / good and bad traits I cant cook, wash or brush my hair, take my own medication pick out my own clothing ( I didn't dress myself until I was 10 or 11 ) do my homework alone, I often times have severe sensory overload, most days im either tired over stimulated or completely lost In my thoughts, a lot of physical challenges which im not sure if its related to autism or not, speech issues ect but I am also smart, good at writing (not handwriting though) ,when I can actually get my speech issues under control I can be pretty articulate, when my memory decides to work properly I can remember scripts, song lyrics, definitions, answers commercials, I could competey zoned in to reading, watching tv, writing, rehursing that nothing can distract me, when I get interested in something I will do it no matter what anyone else thinks, I am not judgmental, I am unique, I have a different view of the world.

If I was a high functioning aspie I wouldn't have as many development problems and I might be able to pass of as normal .

if I was severely autistic I might not have as much social problems / people would be able to deal with my needs properly also if I was non verbal using a communication device would help me with sounding articulant

if I was a high functioning aspie I would be more aware of the problems in this world (and my problems in general) and what people really think of me causing me to be depressed or suicidal wondering why cant I fit in when I seem so normal to the nt world or try to change your self which Is counter productive.

if I was severely autistic people might act overly sappy and sympathetic to me and try to cure me or ill be so self ingrous i do severe damage with out realizing it/ wonder off and get hit by a car or kidnaped

To me what you describe is high functioning in that you can process ideas and think and speak. I might or might not invite you to a party at my house (not that I even have any) depending upon how you would fit in with the people there and what the function of that party was, a specialized group of people interested in certain ideas and activities or just people in general, but if it was too much hassle I might not, as having a party in itself is something I could barely do and I would not want to make it any more difficult than it already was, but if someone else took on any kind of extra work and responsibility, then that might be different. Or if I did invite you, there would have to be a payoff for me. Maybe you would have something unique to contribute or maybe just the love and satisfaction from including someone like yourself. (edited to add, if the mind of a person is brilliant, and I feel I could learn something important from that person, then to me that would be a very big payoff, as leaning is the most important thing to me, so then any extra effort would not matter and even seem insignificant). It is all very subjective and contextual, but imo from your end trying to analyze and process all this kind of info about other people would be a waste of time. It would be too hard to sort out.

Anyway,. society is formed around making and doing, and a person's functional capacity plays into all of that, so I think you are making a kind of arbitrary distinction when you speak about functioning levels in terms of fitting into society. Society is about functioning.

The main thing is to accept yourself and find ways to learn and grow and enjoy your own life. I am not sure if thinking about how other people do not accept you or how you do not fit in is that helpful. It is seeing the glass as half empty, and that world view is not self or other enriching.

ok maybe I am being biased but don't get me wrong if I could stop getting sensory overload and get rid my physical delays I would however .... wait a minute I think this is better explained in a quote.

13 Secrets Parents Need to Know About Autism but Haven't Heard Yet

Quote:

autistic people contribute to their communities in many ways, no matter what constellation of obvious abilities and disabilities they demonstrate. Autistic people are valuable as they are. They don't have value only if they can be transformed into less obviously autistic people

I will go into explanation about this later about how this specifically is related to me later because where I live it is now 12:33 am.

even if as were different from autism autistic people still deserve the same amount of respect and level of humanity as anyone else .

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08 Dec 2013, 10:06 am

littlebee wrote:

Marybird wrote:

Wow. Interesting message.. I do not think the solution is for researchers to look into finding a cure for human insensitivity. There may be some extremely limited value, but that would be too slow.. I have written a lot about slow being fast, but that was meant regarding not skipping essential steps within ones own understanding, but actually in terms of action, one does not want longer than necessary to figure things out, so t would suggest to begin discussing and making a study of this right here and now on Wrong Planet. I think coming to an understanding in our dialogue here in such a way that actually affects our minds and helps us develop the mind of great compassion as interconnected with both inner and outer speech and conscious doing rather than mechanical reaction would ultimately have a much greater affect upon humanity in general than some scientific study.

Anyway, most people already know that to be nice to other people gives beneficial results. Granted many children and teenagers as well as some adults do not yet completely realize this, but imo this is probably because they are being bullied or have been bullied in their own homes. Various education projects are already being done in the US and maybe other countries also to remedy this kind of situation. People are doing hands-on experimentation, and this is building community in such a way that maybe can to some degree counteract bad parenting and even educate parents.

and Marybird responded:

Quote:

Littlebee, I am not talking about human insensitivity or bad parenting. I am talking about pathology.
It would be nice to have a cure for psychopathy.

Marybird, I know that you were talking about pathology. I responded the way I did because it seemed to me, sad to say, that you were making a kind of non statement that imo in this particular context really almost falls into the category of enabling. Why not just say that you think all people are beautiful (except sociopaths)?.

Another point is that it doesn't really matter on a broader spectrum what you (or I) think, but for op the actual transformational factor is probably the way she herself is processing data.From my own extensive experience in this area, If I am thinking a lot about how other people think about myself and of what value I am to them, this is the wrong angle from which to cultivate feeling good about myself, as, in a subtle way, that kind of thinking is based on holding a grudge. There is only so much energy available and this kind of grudge holding creates a big leak. .

This may be a little hard to understand, but what really bothers me is to see emotion being set apart from thinking in the way you have done so that feeling and thinking are]not harmonized together into the mind of compassion, but rather emotion is felt and displayed in a particular context to achieve a goal. An example-- if there were horrible bullying going on here on this particular thread, it is unlikely you would come out here and say all bullies are beautiful, even though within each bully there is a hurting human being who has probably himself been bullied, (though if it were said in the right way it could probably diffuse a lot of bullying). You are only saying what you said in this particular context, so this kind of takes away beauty from beauty and turns it into a measurement, rather than a pure emotion toward another human being, any human being. Again, this may be a little hard to understand for some reading, but I suggest to try to think about it.

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08 Dec 2013, 11:10 am

littlebee wrote:

Marybird wrote:

and Marybird responded:

Quote:

Littlebee, I am not talking about human insensitivity or bad parenting. I am talking about pathology.
It would be nice to have a cure for psychopathy.

Marybird, I know that you were talking about pathology. I responded the way I did because it seemed to me, sad to say, that you were making a kind ofthat imo in this particular context really almost falls into the category of enabling. Why not just say that you think all people are beautiful (except sociopaths)?.

Another point is that it doesn't really matter on a broader spectrum what you (or I) think, but for op the actual transformational factor is probably the way she herself is processing data.From my own extensive experience in this area, If I am thinking a lot about how other people think about myself and of what value I am to them, this is the wrong angle from which to cultivate feeling good about myself, as, in a subtle way, that kind of thinking is based on holding a grudge. There is only so much energy available and this kind of grudge holding creates a big leak. .

This may be a little hard to understand, but what really bothers me is to see emotion being set apart from thinking in the way you have done so that feeling and thinking are]not harmonized together into the mind of compassion, but rather emotion is felt and displayed in a particular context to achieve a goal. An example-- if there were horrible bullying going on here on this particular thread, it is unlikely you would come out here and say all bullies are beautiful, even though within each bully there is a hurting human being who has probably himself been bullied, (though if it were said in the right way it could probably diffuse a lot of bullying). You are only saying what you said in this particular context, so this kind of takes away beauty from beauty and turns it into a measurement, rather than a pure emotion toward another human being, any human being. Again, this may be a little hard to understand for some reading, but I suggest to try to think about it.

`
ok im trying to understand what you are trying to say. your saying that me holding a grudge is resulting

Quote:

in thinking a lot about how other people think about myself and of what value I am to them

That makes sense and sounds very likely. But how do I know what caused this grudge and how do I let it go?

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08 Dec 2013, 11:59 am

jenisautistic wrote:

`ok im trying to understand what you are trying to say. your saying that me holding a grudge is resulting

Quote:

in thinking a lot about how other people think about myself and of what value I am to them

That makes sense and sounds very likely. But how do I know what caused this grudge and how do I let it go?

Hi. I appreciate the enquiing spirit. That is very joyful. Well, you don't have to really know exactly what caused the grudge. It is just a residue of unprocessed trauma combined with a behavior pattern. You were wronged, obviously, probably in many different ways and from many different angles, and this has surely been very painful. That is in no way to be denied. A lot of what people do to each other is really, really bad, and people develop these kinds of negative attitudes, maybe as even a form of self protection. If you anticipate the bad happening, then when it happens it is not so bad, and to blame other people kind of makes sense from this perspective, but they were treated badly, too, and trust me on this one---they really really were. Of course this is in no way intended to excuse anyone's bad behavior. People need to take responsibility for their own behavior, but to realize they too were harmed does kind of take away the impetus and rational for holding a grudge, so this puts you in a different position where there is more possibility for yourself..

I have not much more time to write on WP today, but as far as letting the grudge go, I would like to go into this subject in detail. It is necessary to be careful when working with negative emotions because if they are just shoved down under then a person can get sick. I know this for a fact as it happened to me. I was sick for twenty years from age forty to sixty with very severe migraines.

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08 Dec 2013, 5:12 pm

jenisautistic wrote:

okay I know this post might annoy or anger some people. Im not accusing anyone here of being ableist or biased. However I need to ask why do some aspies and even high functioning autistics seem to distance themselves from others who are low or mid functioning or sometimes even the word autism in general. and yes I know now that KOZ is a troll but their are some aspies/autistics ( and of course nt parents and other nts) who act like this .

I guess I am pretty mild. Obviously, except on this site, why do I distance myself from the word "autism"? Because I (and other higher-functioning people) might be highly ambitious and fear that the word "autism" will kill chances at potentially becoming next president of the USA, famous movie star, and so on. I don't see what the big deal is. I live in a country where you should be free to associate or distance from whoever you want. This has nothing to do with being cruel to lower-functioning people, I just don't want anyone to push the word "autism" on me.

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08 Dec 2013, 6:25 pm

GinBlossoms wrote:

jenisautistic wrote:

(Not trying to speak for the OP or anybody else, just sharing my thoughts here)

I think it's the type of distancing that is the problem...

To say you aren't the same as someone is fine ....To say, "I'm labelled higher-functioning and have these issues and abilities, and my issues and abilities might be very different from someone labelled as lower-functioning than me -- and our needs and experiences are going to be different to whatever degree," doesn't hurt anybody.

The problem is when people who are higher-functioning compare themselves to those who are lower-functioning in a way that disregards the worth and the feelings of lower-functioning people....sometimes the things that higher-functioning ASDers say when distancing themselves from lower-functioning ASDers comes across a lot like saying to a bully, "Don't bully me because I have glasses! Bully that kid over there instead -- his glasses are way thicker than mine! And his glasses are ugly -- mine are stylish! I have the good type of glasses that people shouldn't be bullied for!"

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Last edited by animalcrackers on 08 Dec 2013, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Dec 2013, 6:47 pm

"Lower functioning" individuals are just as worthy people. Just because they lack certain skills doesn't mean they are sub-human.

Dox47 wrote:

I don't think of people who are lower functioning as inferior, I just don't often find that I personally have much in common with them, and don't particularly seek them out, but I also don't seek out AS people generally. I've never liked the idea that autistics will just naturally get along and relate to one another, it's as ridiculous as thinking that people in wheelchairs are all the same because of their shared disability, but even more extreme because AS manifests so differently in each person. I run an AS social group and have personally met hundreds of autistics, and I can honestly say that I like, dislike, and am indifferent to them at about the same rate as I am to the general public, with maybe a slight edge for the handful who have similar traits to me.

I've never liked that idea either. Two people lacking in social skills will probably have more issues communicating, if anything.

If you do not care for the company of autistic people, then I am guessing you run the group for the benefit of others. I would like to express my admiration without sounding patronising.

Willard wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

if you had to choose between being a high functioning aspie or a low functioning autistic, which would you pick? No lying now.

Honestly, I can see at least one serious advantage to being low functioning. If your disability is obvious, neurotypicals treat you with a lot more tolerance than they do if they can convince themselves you're just a pain in the ass because you're a schmuck.

There's also the idea that "ignorance is bliss". Lower functioning individuals don't necessarily know what they are missing out on, aren't as good at telling what people really think, and so forth.

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08 Dec 2013, 6:56 pm

GinBlossoms wrote:

jenisautistic wrote:

ok ive been thinking about this for a while and since this is a judgmental nt society I honestly don't blame you if you can hide your disability to the point that if you reveled it to the average non disabled person they would be shocked, and can still have great job performance with out any accommodations or being thrown out for acting suspiciously or a misunderstanding I respect that. and then years later if you become well known or famous revel your disability for all the tabloids to write up about and shut up nts

as long as your not ashamed of being autistic.

You just have to understand that there are some people like me who have obious symptoms or someone who is a savant but severely handicapped like Steven hawking ( with or without a mental disability) and cant do that who may be just as qualified to do the job as you are but aren't even considered for the job or worse are criticized and bullied/abused by nts.

Imagine you have a severely autistic friend who is amazing at math and can do complex equations in his head and you were with him competing in a math companion on local tv or maybe just in your high school the other kids knew you had as but you were a star football player and were in the honors program and he was in a special autistic class or maybe was in mainstream but rode the short bus. Before the competition you notice that some kids are bullying your friend and are attempting to break his acc device saying your a retared , he doesn't deserve to be in this competition ect saying really hurtful offensive things. and there where others who before ask gave him a problem to answer, praising him and then were laughing and talking behind is back.

You try to stand up him by mentioning your as but they counter by saying you just have as and are mild even if you do have some problems and your smart , he's just a autistic ret*d.

what would you do?

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08 Dec 2013, 7:07 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

based on what? your opinion? that's pretty lame.
Meanwhile NTs will say the same thing about you or me and then suddenly you will be outraged!

People previously labelled as "low functioning" can contribute to society if they are given a chance. You don;t need to be caught in the same shallow mindset of most NTs that disability = inferior...

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08 Dec 2013, 7:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

based on what? your opinion? that's pretty lame.

I think there may be a misunderstanding in this thread...some people are answering based on the idea of inferior as "worse at something in particular" and some are answering based on inferior in the sense of "overall worth as a human being."

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08 Dec 2013, 9:43 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

I actually wouldn't be outraged, because they would be absolutely right. My difficulties keep me from doing things that more normal folk can do, and what I can do, I generally can't do as well. The same goes with any sort of physical disability. Not being able to use your legs gives you no special abilities that others don't have; Anything this hypothetical paralyzed man can do could just as easily been done by someone with perfectly functioning legs. But there are plenty of things that a healthy person can do that this paralyzed man cannot. I'm not sure how one could possibly consider these circumstances and conclude that being paralyzed is anything but inferior. And that means that a paralyzed man is, on the basis of his paralysis, worth less, if all else is equal.

However, I feel that I need to greatly emphasize that just because someone is worth less, it does not mean that they are worthless. All people should be treated with dignity, just as a function of being human. And anyone, no matter their circumstances, is capable of great things. This is true if we're talking about a healthy man and a paralyzed man, or an NT and and AS individual. But having AS, or being unable to use your legs are both clearly inferior to the alternative, and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

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08 Dec 2013, 10:09 pm

I was diagnosed with Asperger's but I actually chose to refer to myself as Autistic instead of "aspie". I actually have friends diagnosed with Classic Autism and I don't see much of a difference between myself and them except they have speech issues and I don't. I really prefer the company of those more disabled than myself over aspies because I was homeschooled my whole life and never learned to fake being normal.

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08 Dec 2013, 10:17 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

I take your point and apologise if I sounded rude...

Troy_Guther
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08 Dec 2013, 11:20 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

I take your point and apologise if I sounded rude...

Looking back, I realize that what I said before could easily be construed as far more negative than what I intended. That's my mistake, and I could hardly blame you for being upset. So no worries mate.

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08 Dec 2013, 11:30 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Because low functioning is inferior.

Wow, your comment doesn't outrage me, but it does make me sad!

First off, I really think you should speak for yourself when you start throwing around words like inferior.

People are just different, not less than or more than or better than or worse then. I work with non-Aspies, my family is full of them. Successful, rich, tons of friends, married, kids - not one of them do I wish I could be. I don't go for that Aspie is superior stuff either. Just we are allowed to be different without carrying a yoke of self hatred or shame around with us everywhere we go.

So what if we can't read social cues - Jesus Christ I've heard this all my life, how shameful it is. F that!

Anyway, you think all those "NTs" are running around doing good stuff and solving poverty and all that? What's so great about them? Nobody is any better than us or superior to any of us.

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