gradma says i shoulnt say im like lennie from of miceandmen

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Norepinephrine
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26 Jan 2014, 8:21 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Lenny is shot at the end of the movie. That's not a happy ending. Your Grandma wants a happy ending and I hope and pray that all people with disabilities will be able to enjoy a happy ending someday soon. It's wrong to kill someone, just because they're handicapped.

Lennie wasn't killed because he was handicapped. George killed him in mercy to protect him from Curley, who himself wanted to kill Lennie and ensure that he suffered for killing his wife and to enact revenge for having crippled his hand in chapter 3. Sure you can argue that Lennie's handicap contributed to these series of events, but it doesn't mean the characters necessarily intended to kill him specifically because he was disabled.



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26 Jan 2014, 8:23 pm

Agdgdgwngo wrote:
Explain that it's because you see parallels in your relationship. If she knows you are autistic then she might think you identifying with Lenny, who clearly has a mental disability, is a sign of low self-esteem. With some clarification I am sure she will begin to view it with good humor.


Well this actually did start out as a joke between me and my grandmother because I accidentally hurt her while I was hugging her too hard and I hurt her neck and I said if I don't watch out I'm really going to be like Lenny.

Then I came up as a joke tonight when I send it to my uncle after my grandmother had told him about us watching of mice and men I said were really like George and Lennie and I guess he thought it was funny.


I don't see why it's bad to say that besides the fact that society doesn't like to think a disabled or mentally challenged or autistic people as that like themselves or as on the same level as they are.

I mean it's hard to understand how this could not be seeing myself as a bad thing but again you got understand I'm very childlike and optimistic and I always see the good in everything.

And I do see my grandma like George.I mean when I accidentally did something wrong or got into trouble she says says that I can go to court and get rid of you and then I would be happy and you know I have to deal with you and take care of you and I have no help and all that kind of stuff.

Went before this and she would say it is the really upset me but now I find it kind of funny and I don't think that it's she not liking me anymore and that is that really mad at me she's just frustrated.

And I find it funny how I'm always around my grandmother is seemingly annoying her all the time and always asking her to do stuff for me like to read to me or asking her questions or something like that and it's really funny because I've never seen a character group who would act like that before.


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26 Jan 2014, 8:38 pm

Norepinephrine wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
Lenny is shot at the end of the movie. That's not a happy ending. Your Grandma wants a happy ending and I hope and pray that all people with disabilities will be able to enjoy a happy ending someday soon. It's wrong to kill someone, just because they're handicapped.

Lennie wasn't killed because he was handicapped. George killed him in mercy to protect him from Curley, who himself wanted to kill Lennie and ensure that he suffered for killing his wife and to enact revenge for having crippled his hand in chapter 3. Sure you can argue that Lennie's handicap contributed to these series of events, but it doesn't mean the characters necessarily intended to kill him specifically because he was disabled.
The message is more like, "Someone like Lenny can't live in the world because sooner or later, it will end in tragedy." It was published in 1937--think what else was happening during that time in history. Steinbeck was an American author, and during that time the eugenics movement was going on in America. The idea that some people were inherently inferior was very popular. "Defectives" were being sterilized, lobotomized, or put in institutions, and there was widespread fear of "morons"--that is, people with mild intellectual disability--as potential criminals who would damage society by their very presence and were hard to detect because they seemed so "normal". Considering that climate, it is not surprising that Steinbeck could not see anything other than a tragic ending for Lenny.

Contrast this story with Flowers for Algernon, published in the mid-1960s. Charlie, the main character, is an intellectually disabled man who first becomes much more intelligent than others, and then loses that intelligence again. In the book, Charlie's suffering comes not from his disability, but from the way others treat him, and from his past rejection by his family. He is distanced from others both when he is much more intelligent and when he is much less intelligent than most people. It is also a sad story, but the change in themes shows how much our perception of disability has changed.

Modern books are starting to include characters with disabilities whose disabilities are not the central aspect of their personalities, showing that the trend toward inclusion is continuing. Lenny could not live in his world; Charlie suffered because he was not allowed to live as an equal; today, disabled characters are, at least sometimes, equals in status and in story whose primary function in the plot goes beyond their disability. One good example of this is the TV show "House", in which the main character's brilliance as a doctor, hostile personality, and manipulative actions far overshadow his physical disability and addiction.


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Last edited by Callista on 26 Jan 2014, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Jan 2014, 8:48 pm

wozeree wrote:
jenisautistic wrote:
wozeree wrote:
PS, I was just thinking about this - in real life you don't really hear about mentally handicapped guys accidentally breaking women's necks. Maybe that's why you disassociated yourself from it, just not very realistic.


Wow I thought I was the only one who thought it was hard to believe that Lenny could snap Curleys wife's neck cause I don't believe it at all and I also can't believe the George would shoot Lennie if he really cared about him. You could've easily just ran across the river agin and ran away. The whole first and second act were wonderfully beautiful to me but then it all went downhill that ending was just one of the worst things I've ever seen and also the scene where they shoot Candys dog.

I personally think the ending should've been different especially since it could have helped people with mental disabilities be respected. I mean it's like whenever there's a shooting or whatever they always lead it to a mental illness I don't know how I feel about that .


Yeah, the scary thing, as I'm sure you know, is that Steinbeck was considered to be compassionate when he wrote that. Think how many school kids have been forced to read it!



I read it in my junior year. My aid had to explain the ending to me and what George's intentions were when he shot him and how people didn't understand disabilities then, especially Lenny's so it ended the way it did.


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26 Jan 2014, 10:25 pm

An NT's primary reality coping method is denial.
When someone they like makes non-wonderful-fairyland** comments (reality perhaps) they'll often use their most powerful coping talent.
"Oh my gosh honey! No you're not!"

The inability to thoroughly (effectively) use denial of reality (or perception) may be the most fundamental catastrophe of autism.

Of course some people may just call it "filtering."



(** meaning- saying some thing that doesn't come out as "Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!")


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26 Jan 2014, 10:56 pm

coffeebean wrote:
Have you seen the ending of the movie or book? If I remember correctly, Lennie accidentally does something very, very bad... that might be what she's worried people will associate you with.

This, mainly. I understand your analogy but this is pretty much why, I would imagine.

I wouldn't be so quick to say it's denial, unless they're like that ALL THE TIME (lol my parents). She probably is thinking, "well crap, lennie also [spoiler spoiler spoiler]! My grandchild isn't that!"


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26 Jan 2014, 11:18 pm

vickygleitz wrote:
You are not like Lennie from 'Of Mice and Men." You are like Jenny from WP, which is a good thing because that is who you are.

True, you are so cute and so sweet, as is Lennie. What happened to Lennie [and what he did] would never happen with you. And sweetie, I am no mind reader,but I see tons of kittens and puppies and bunnies in your future [and many other wonderful things]


I second this. :D


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27 Jan 2014, 12:26 am

I could see someone calling someone else "Lennie" as a way of saying "idiot".
There was a cartoon version of that and the "Lennie" character is often imitated to indicate someone is being stupid and inept "duh, which way did he go, George, which way did he go?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Q0JmWjj0



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27 Jan 2014, 1:35 am

Okay maybe Lenny is a bad example I never actually noticed all that stuff about him. But it did start out as a joke anyway still think it's pretty funny.

But here's the real question I want to ask is it bad to relate yourself to in intellectually disabled character if you feel like you are looking for my thinking personality traits? and if so why?

Besides the obvious nts think that some people are inferior to other people and I don't want to get into this whole thing again but I really want to know. Why would someone take intelligence in to consideration an example of this would be someone thinking in there like idk Homer Simpson maybe someone has a different example and Matilda?

By the way I saw the cartoon I still think it's cute even though it's implications are kind of rude and mean .

Look at the references I noticed there were a few references that I've seen in my Child hood that I did not realize.There is also a character from this show called fiber chasteness character that I like is a little kid called dede from Cyberchase who was a reference to Lenny. I like them because he always said that he can get a bunny that he can keep and love and call George. Although I don't think that character in the show was mentally challenged but then again it was a long time ago.


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Last edited by jenisautistic on 27 Jan 2014, 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Jan 2014, 1:37 am

vickygleitz wrote:
You are not like Lennie from 'Of Mice and Men." You are like Jenny from WP, which is a good thing because that is who you are.

True, you are so cute and so sweet, as is Lennie. What happened to Lennie [and what he did] would never happen with you. And sweetie, I am no mind reader,but I see tons of kittens and puppies and bunnies in your future [and many other wonderful things]


This post is adorable :D


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27 Jan 2014, 2:54 am

If I were your grandma, I would tell you not to say things like that because it is not a good idea to let people know about your weaknesses. Some people will try to take advantage of you, if they know you have a weakness. Let people guess that you are different. Don't confirm their suspicions by saying something like that. Remember Lenny is not very intelligent. He is easily manipulated by others because he is naïve. There are a lot of people who would like nothing more than to try to manipulate you if they thought they could.



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27 Jan 2014, 2:54 am

If I were your grandma, I would tell you not to say things like that because it is not a good idea to let people know about your weaknesses. Some people will try to take advantage of you, if they know you have a weakness. Let people guess that you are different. Don't confirm their suspicions by saying something like that. Remember Lenny is not very intelligent. He is easily manipulated by others because he is naïve. There are a lot of people who would like nothing more than to try to manipulate you if they thought they could.



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27 Jan 2014, 4:53 am

Your good grandma is right.
When you compare yourself with Lenny, - even for humorous reasons, and even if he is a sympathetic character, you form a false picture of yourself, which may harm your self esteem and be misunderstood by others.
If you feel hurt by some of the tings, your grandma says to you, - then quietly tell her.


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27 Jan 2014, 3:19 pm

jenisautistic wrote:
Okay maybe Lenny is a bad example I never actually noticed all that stuff about him. But it did start out as a joke anyway still think it's pretty funny.

But here's the real question I want to ask is it bad to relate yourself to in intellectually disabled character if you feel like you are looking for my thinking personality traits? and if so why?

Besides the obvious nts think that some people are inferior to other people and I don't want to get into this whole thing again but I really want to know. Why would someone take intelligence in to consideration an example of this would be someone thinking in there like idk Homer Simpson maybe someone has a different example and Matilda?

it's cute even though it's implications are kind of rude and mean .


Jenny, what I see is you going around and around with the same question. I do not know if this is true with you, but sometimes one part of a person wants to get a question answered and another part of the same person does not. All the intelligent responses to what you originally wrote do seem to be very articulately addressing the question you asked, but now we find out that the question they answered is not exactly the same as the real question you have. I think sometimes in order to get a question that it is very important to oneself to get answered, it is necessary to make a conscious dedication to staying with that question, no matter how long it takes, even years, and never quit until it is answered. I have already written to you about this on another thread.

But first a response to the original question. I think your Grandmother was saying you are not like Lenny because you have more intellectual comprehension, as you are probably not going to be going around telling other people you are like Lenny, so I don;t think this is why she answered that, and it does sound like there are some similarities in the dynamic between you and her and between these two film characters. So you were saying one thing to her from the latter perspective, and she was answering from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in communication, and further communication can sort it out and clarify what this and that means to different people.

The thing is, it can also happen within oneself, too. Something means one thing to one part of myself whereas it means something entirely different to another part of myself. So if one part of myself that has one inner meaning asks a question to another part of myself that has a different inner meaning, then this can make it difficult if not impossible to get a true answer. This is why, at least in my experience, when a person sticks to the true heart of a question, but from a logical perspective, then mind connects to brain in a new way which allows for insight, but this is difficult and sometimes not pleasant work,though very rewarding. The part of oneself that is connected to the real inner core of the question needs to wrestle with the part of oneself that may be not so focused so much on getting an answer may or may be focusing in a different way contextually that cannot lead to getting an answer..

Quote:
But here's the real question I want to ask is it bad to relate yourself to in intellectually disabled character if you feel like you are looking for my thinking personality traits? and if so why?


If it helps you sort things out and does not harm you or anyone else, then it is not bad. People use all kinds of analogies in sorting out problems within themselves, but if it does not help you sort things out but keeps you stuck at a certain developmental juncture and lowers your self esteem or causes other people to pick on you, then it is bad. If you hurt someones feelings by comparing them to whomever, then it is bad, but if you do it in such a way that they understand and learn something important from it, then maybe it is not so bad, again, all depending on the context and various people's subjective interpretations. For instance, to give an extreme example, if someone says something that is actually intended to be cruel and you are able to turn it over and really learn something from it, such as have compassion for them and the suffering they may have gone through that made them turn out this way, then it is good for you, but bad for them, but maybe they can learn something from you in this instance about how to turn things around, such as in the saying "God's curses are our opportunities," so it would in this sense be a learning opportunity for them. Once a person catches onto this simple principle, life can be a lot different. Many seemingly negative situations things can offer a great possibility if seen differently. It is very interesting.

However, all of this said, and I think I have made some good points, after reading almost all of your messages on WP. I am not sure if what I just wrote really addresses your question. I suspect you may be struggling with something within yourself which this question is in some ways touching on, yes, but in other ways, not exactly. I do know, having raised two daughters, that fifteen is a very difficult developmental stage in terms of self individuation. I do not know if it is so for you, but for the typical adolescent this is a difficult age. I am hearing a lot of questions in your message about your relationship with your grandmother, which relationship from what I have read so far, seems to be maturing and improving from both ends, so I am thinking your question is more to do with something you are sorting out within yourself.

I have more comments to make, but have to go to work soon.

littlebee



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27 Jan 2014, 4:44 pm

littlebee wrote:
jenisautistic wrote:
Okay maybe Lenny is a bad example I never actually noticed all that stuff about him. But it did start out as a joke anyway still think it's pretty funny.
But here's the real question I want to ask is it bad to relate yourself to in intellectually disabled character if you feel like you are looking for my thinking personality traits? and if so why?
Besides the obvious nts think that some people are inferior to other people and I don't want to get into this whole thing again but I really want to know. Why would someone take intelligence in to consideration an example of this would be someone thinking in there like idk Homer Simpson maybe someone has a different example and Matilda?
it's cute even though it's implications are kind of rude and mean .

Jenny, what I see is you going around and around with the same question. I do not know if this is true with you, but sometimes one part of a person wants to get a question answered and another part of the same person does not. All the intelligent responses to what you originally wrote do seem to be very articulately addressing the question you asked, but now we find out that the question they answered is not exactly the same as the real question you have. I think sometimes in order to get a question that it is very important to oneself to get answered, it is necessary to make a conscious dedication to staying with that question, no matter how long it takes, even years, and never quit until it is answered. I have already written to you about this on another thread.
But first a response to the original question. I think your Grandmother was saying you are not like Lenny because you have more intellectual comprehension, as you are probably not going to be going around telling other people you are like Lenny, so I don;t think this is why she answered that, and it does sound like there are some similarities in the dynamic between you and her and between these two film characters. So you were saying one thing to her from the latter perspective, and she was answering from a different perspective. This kind of thing happens all the time in communication, and further communication can sort it out and clarify what this and that means to different people.
The thing is, it can also happen within oneself, too. Something means one thing to one part of myself whereas it means something entirely different to another part of myself. So if one part of myself that has one inner meaning asks a question to another part of myself that has a different inner meaning, then this can make it difficult if not impossible to get a true answer. This is why, at least in my experience, when a person sticks to the true heart of a question, but from a logical perspective, then mind connects to brain in a new way which allows for insight, but this is difficult and sometimes not pleasant work,though very rewarding. The part of oneself that is connected to the real inner core of the question needs to wrestle with the part of oneself that may be not so focused so much on getting an answer may or may be focusing in a different way contextually that cannot lead to getting an answer..
Quote:
But here's the real question I want to ask is it bad to relate yourself to in intellectually disabled character if you feel like you are looking for my thinking personality traits? and if so why?

If it helps you sort things out and does not harm you or anyone else, then it is not bad. People use all kinds of analogies in sorting out problems within themselves, but if it does not help you sort things out but keeps you stuck at a certain developmental juncture and lowers your self esteem or causes other people to pick on you, then it is bad. If you hurt someones feelings by comparing them to whomever, then it is bad, but if you do it in such a way that they understand and learn something important from it, then maybe it is not so bad, again, all depending on the context and various people's subjective interpretations. For instance, to give an extreme example, if someone says something that is actually intended to be cruel and you are able to turn it over and really learn something from it, such as have compassion for them and the suffering they may have gone through that made them turn out this way, then it is good for you, but bad for them, but maybe they can learn something from you in this instance about how to turn things around, such as in the saying "God's curses are our opportunities," so it would in this sense be a learning opportunity for them. Once a person catches onto this simple principle, life can be a lot different. Many seemingly negative situations things can offer a great possibility if seen differently. It is very interesting.
However, all of this said, and I think I have made some good points, after reading almost all of your messages on WP. I am not sure if what I just wrote really addresses your question. I suspect you may be struggling with something within yourself which this question is in some ways touching on, yes, but in other ways, not exactly. I do know, having raised two daughters, that fifteen is a very difficult developmental stage in terms of self individuation. I do not know if it is so for you, but for the typical adolescent this is a difficult age. I am hearing a lot of questions in your message about your relationship with your grandmother, which relationship from what I have read so far, seems to be maturing and improving from both ends, so I am thinking your question is more to do with something you are sorting out within yourself. 
I have more comments to make, but have to go to work soon.
littlebee

You make a really good point about that my grandmother thinking of it as a different way then me. I think this is what she did and I think that she has a fight with herself too she doesn't want to see me as disabled autistic or whatever but then when she sees how much she constantly how much he has to take care of me and how much she needs to remind me of stuff etc. that I really am disabled but then she fights and I guess because she thinks of it as a negative thing.
Sometimes she's really supportive and understanding but other times it be really rude and inconsiderate and save it's all my fault and that I did it deliberately and then I just want to make her miserable. 

Another time she's just really pities for me. Saying she sorry about my situation (not just my disability), that she wishes there is a place for me like special school or home or something ( not in a bad way but somtimes she does say it in a bad way) and how she wishes things could be better for me and that she was younger that she had someone to take care of me or that I was more able and be able to remember things. And how she wishes that I could go to school in Germany because she says the schools are really good.And then she'll like to hug me and cuddle with me and stuff. 


If she yells at me calls me names threatens me or something like that and she scares me or makes me feel really upset or I cry. She usually she doesn't really apologize at first but then she gets really sympathetic and she comforts me.

She complains a lot about not having any help my uncle or mom or my dad and how my dad never gives me money and how she says my mom never helps what is one thing and then she's accomplished the world and she is she's worried about money and how she's going to afford to pay for me and send me to college and how my uncle never pays her when he's supposed to. 


I don't blame her I mean she's I believe 85 years old.I asked her if I could help but she said you can't sweetie and I said I wish I could help or that you could have more help and she said that I wish so too .

At first when she would do this I would get really upset or mad and then almost go though that love/hate relationship thing isn't I've always loved her if you know what I mean. I guess I was kind of frustrated myself.

For example today I was going to my regnts and I was supposed to get there at 8:30.
It was about five minutes before or a few minutes before and I realized I had left my keys at home for the fifth time in a few months and that I tried knocking the door and again she wouldn't hear me. Luckily this time I had my phone with me so I called her. 
And then she ended up yelling at me because I was late and she didn't even care that she couldn't hear me and that I was locked out and this wasn't the first time. well in her defense I didn't really tell her the only time I did mention it did two times including now that I could get my door open.

The rest of times I was too embarrassed to tell her. 
But after while when I got home she didn't seem to be angry anymore. 
And when I saw George and Lennie intracting I had a deeper understanding of why she did it, what she was going through,and how it wasn't so easy for her especially when she's around other adults and especially other kids my age.


For me I know that I'm smart but I also know that I'm delayed and I have a slow processing speed and then I had muscle tone weakness and that I'm physically delayed and autistic and you know.

And I don't want to make a big deal out of it or see it as a bad thing and part of me knows it's not bad but it seems like everyone around me in my family and others wants to either think of it as a tragedy or think that I don't have it etc. and I'm stuck between my new knowledge and their old knowledge/ assumptions part of me knows I'm not like other people and that I'm disabled and the other part just doesn't want to admit it or thinks it's a bad thing or still kind of kind repeating what I am heard before like I used to about the assumptions and stuff even though I don't want to.

And then I started thinking the back of my mind maybe it is a bad thing it's the same thing with Lenny.

I don't want to consider Lenny as bad or whatever and I don't even believe he would kill Curlys wife which I still don't believe. And I still think he's cute and still of the scenes or George and Lennie talk about the rabbits but I don't want to think it's a bad thing to be like him but a lot of people do think it.
Now I realize why because he's supposed to represent 
how people thought of disability back then that's basically supposed to be like a parody or political cartoon.

That's why I think the ending should've been different. Most people aren't even educated enough to understand that. I mean these are the same people who think that every person is autistic is Rainman. And thinks someone like Rainman would not be able to have any feelings and I'm sure there is some people out there who use of mice and men as a justification for people who have developmental disabilities not to be able to live in society.
And knowing that now it kind of also disturbs me I don't know what my life would've been like if I lived in the 1930s but honestly I don't think I would've been in school with regular kids especially with my physical delay but then again I don't know.
 
I wish there could be program with someone like me and my grandmother on TV as long as it was done right. Maybe it could get people an inside scoop on what's its actually like to be disabled and how it's not the end of the world.


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27 Jan 2014, 5:03 pm

Callista wrote:
Modern books are starting to include characters with disabilities whose disabilities are not the central aspect of their personalities, showing that the trend toward inclusion is continuing.


I think South Park has done it well with Timmy and Jimmy. Not to mention the boy with Down's who actually uses the perception that he's "dumb" to his own advantage (in other words, he manipulates others based on their own biases).