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Marybird
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30 Jan 2014, 4:36 pm

littlebee wrote:
Marybird wrote:
Infants do have feelings and are also very intelligent and learn an incredible amount of information in a short time.
A grown autistic person who appears to have infant like behaviors, however, cannot be compared to an infant.
The autistic person was once an infant too and absorbed a lot of information and has a lot of life experience, so to compare that person to an infant is very inaccurate and demonstrates a lack of understanding about what it is like to be low functioning.
With autistic people, behavior does not necessarily reflect what is going on internally, so it's easy to see how such a statement could make one feel uncomfortable, or feel misunderstood.


A pretty good message, but--and I hope you do not mind if I use logic here--a flawed point at the end, as with a baby one does not necessarily know what is going on inside, either. Still, a good message...

But to look at it from a psychological angle, most if not almost all people do not really know what is going on with themselves so have all kinds of stories about it. My entire message, and do not miss the part I wrote to Willard, was in response to the entire message I quoted. I am not talking about anyone specific, but people, including myself, can have these stories about being autistic mixed in with various denial mechanisms and personality disorders and bad habits. Get me on this---biting can be and probably is a habit that has probably in some way been reinforced. One thing that can happen is that people can focus on a something that is in some way true, such as autistic and make it too big in order to not face or see something else. I am talking about autistic encapsulation. This is how it works, and how encapsulation works in general with many people, autistic or not. So if the story about being autistic even if it is true, is used to not see other things or to change the subject, then it becomes a denial mechanism, which is sad, because there is some kind of truth there but it used to avoid another truth that may be even more contextually relevant..It is understandably very important for people, whoever they are, to be seen as people, as unique and individual. However, people compare me to a baby sometimes and I do not make a big deal of it even though I do not like it. People who have an agenda (and everyone does, as in effect this is the way the world works) can appropriate one bit of information and use it to focus from a certain angle. Howvere, in my opinion, the point Sethno was making to Willard is way far more important than the point Jeni was making, as to understand that can help many more people and alleviate much more suffering, though the other point is of some value, too, I do not like seeing someone skip intellectual steps in order to make it.

I am sure that your ideas about autistic encapsulation are true for you and it would be very interesting to hear your story and how it applies to you and how you came to believe this.
But just because it is true for you does not mean it is true for everybody and you probably already know this. It would be a good idea to explain this in terms of how it applies to yourself and then let other people decide if they can learn something from it.



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30 Jan 2014, 4:50 pm

Marybird wrote:
mmcool wrote:
what are the differences between aspergers and mild autistic disorder?
and witch one do you like the most?

People with Aspergers generally have a higher verbal IQ and people with HFA have a higher performance IQ.
There have been studies that support this.
Here is a link to one. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0025372
I identify with mild autistic disorder. I have higher PIQ and have a dx of atypical autism but not from an autism expert. I do meet requirements for ASD in DSM 5 in all categories.

I'm higher verbal IQ 100.(at least the test do not take much into account times needed for thinking what each word means :) )
my PIQ can not be counted as it is too much difference per catagree like 10 to 25 difference.
i noticed mild autistic disorder on all my paperwork.



Marybird
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30 Jan 2014, 5:24 pm

Mild autistic disorder seems to include a wider scope of autistic individuals and IMO is more descriptive.
I also identify with Aspergers in some ways, but I'm not very social or communicative.



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30 Jan 2014, 6:53 pm

mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I think your answer is practically impossible to answer. Diagnostically, many clinicians don't even see a difference between so-called "HFA" and "Asperger's" when dealing with clients. So, you may be asking "which label would you prefer to be sorted with, given the same symptoms in either case."

Mild autistic disorder and aspergers are different in ICD 10


Okay, well, I'm talking about things professionals have said in terms of identifying and distinguishing people for diagnosis of autism as compared to diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome. In terms of observation, many professionals find it difficult-to-impossible to distinguish adults who fit into each category from each other.



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30 Jan 2014, 7:29 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
Sethno wrote:
KingdomOfRats wrote:
...if am thinking of the same guy [am on a dongle so cant go youtubing],he is a young adult and isnt like an infant,he just has a mental capacity lower than hfa or neurotypical people which means he behaves,thinks and understands different to the norm,this includes having challenging behaviors because he doesnt have the same capacity to develop the same skills as others,he has lived his life to the best of his ability and doesnt deserve to be put on the same level as an infant,at least give him that respect,am speaking as someone who is actualy just like him in all ways except higher functioning in communication...


He can't speak, isn't toilet trained, and has been known to bite people.

This is no insult. It's a description of his limitations.

He's very much like an infant, except for the mobility...and the teeth.

yep,thought so have got the right person in mind....am exactly the same,have two support staff to self at all times,bite and get far worse than he does when frustrated or if restrained,am prescribed nappies on the NHS,and lacking speech doesnt mean anything about what goes on inside his head,mine is always working whether am fully non verbal or echolalic.
with support am a paid staff of the NHS,working for two social services learning [US=intelectual] disability teams as an interviewer; choosing the right people for current job posts on the team,am a local autism and intelectual disability activist,helping out various services to understand our disabilities including hospitals, businesses and social services.

am making more contribution to society than many non autistic and hf autistics yet the guy and by proxy anyone else with the same traits are given the highly limiting,judgemental and offensive title of having the mind of a child,the lad and the rest of us of similar presentation dont have a childs mind, we have a lower mental capacity which has a knock on effect on how we understand,feel,learn,behave, communicate etc.


You are always so eloquent!

mmcool - I was wondering where you went off to - glad to see you back. I'm sorry I don't know the answer to your question.



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31 Jan 2014, 3:41 am

Verdandi wrote:
mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I think your answer is practically impossible to answer. Diagnostically, many clinicians don't even see a difference between so-called "HFA" and "Asperger's" when dealing with clients. So, you may be asking "which label would you prefer to be sorted with, given the same symptoms in either case."

Mild autistic disorder and aspergers are different in ICD 10


Okay, well, I'm talking about things professionals have said in terms of identifying and distinguishing people for diagnosis of autism as compared to diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome. In terms of observation, many professionals find it difficult-to-impossible to distinguish adults who fit into each category from each other.


It appears to be based on early age development



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31 Jan 2014, 11:05 am

anyone?



littlebee
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31 Jan 2014, 11:46 am

Here is the link to the entire message from which I have quoted this reply from Marybird: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5884771.html#5884771

Marybird wrote, and thanks for the response...:

Quote:
I am sure that your ideas about autistic encapsulation are true for you and it would be very interesting to hear your story and how it applies to you and how you came to believe this.

Oddly fascinating comment, as it kind of negates what you said in a previous message about this particular autistic person not being like an infant. How would you know this unless he himself tells you his own personal story? And does Sethno need to tell you his personal story about being like an infant to get across the idea of what being like an infant means to him? He made a contextual comment which different people will interpret differently according to their own personal agendas and contexts, but whatever interpretation given is generally true to the person giving it, and your comment about this person not actually being like an infant is well taken by me, as it makes sense, and I do not need to hear your personal story to understand it.There is a general context, and also the mind is able to extrapolate in order to understand better and factor in individually perceived discrepancies,, though I do think many people do it selectively:-) They make the effort to understand when and if it suits their purpose. That is understandable, but I am not sure it leads to a more objective truth, and there is not a crystallized objective truth, imo, but there is some kind of objective data based on general physical experience.
Quote:
But just because it is true for you does not mean it is true for everybody and you probably already know this.

Um, speaking of this general principle of brain function that I am calling encapsulation, if someone does not understand what i am talking about it would not be true for him. This is correct.

Quote:
It would be a good idea to explain this in terms of how it applies to yourself and then let other people decide if they can learn something from it.

Actually this would not be a good idea, as a person needs to be able to perceive his own brain encapsulating in order to understand what I am talking about. So, if you give your personal story a person will omit details when he is extrapolating from it in order to apply or most likely not apply it to his own story, (and that would be too complex in order to catch the required glimpse that can only be received by turning the picture sideways), He is using left brain fine tuning to compare his own story to someone elses story, but he cannot know he is doing it until he has done it, and once he has done it he cannot see it, as it is already factored into the 'new' way he is perceiving. I put the marks around new because it is generally a repetition, and not alive in an entirely different way, or the brain, which always does need to factor out extraneous data, would not need to omit details to preserve the false sense of an independent (meaning not interdependent) self which is maintained by certain aspects of story.

Also, something even more fascinating has just occurred to me. There is no way to make the bridge between different paradigms if each person is going to decide if every other person's story applies to himself, as the discrepancy factor will do him in every time. This is why a new paradigm needs to exist based on a Whole person rather than a partial person, in that a whole person is both an individual and yet at the same time all people. He is able to both think and to BE without taking away from one to do the other. But something has to be taken away from someone somewhere:-) Or perhaps it needs to be given or else there will always be two different universes maintained by two different areas of brain function. It is the story of two and one, the solution to which brings us to three, the number of gardening, growing and regeneration and community, so one for one, each for ones brother, and each for all.

of course a self centered person will not understand this, and, Marybird, I'm definitely NOT talking about you. It does seem to me however that both an infant and this adult person described as an infant is much more self centered than a mature person, no matter how precious they are, how deep their feeling, and however unique way they process data. Because of your deep caring and sensitivity you want to include all people, and yes you should do this. It is very beautiful and imo beneficial to humanity. However, it is also necessary to look from the perspective of functional.value.

As it is maybe kind of off topic here (I don't think so, myself, but the op might), I am going to also post this on my Autistic Encapsulation thread and when I get a chance go into more detail, and maybe we can continue this discussion there if you are even interested.

And, by the way, none of this is to in anyway suggest that it is of no value for a person to not speak about his own individual experience. I think this is general the best way to approach, but this instance is a little different. I have already gone into all of this in great detail in my writings about word roots and brain function on my Playing the Autistic Card May Be Harmful To Humanity thread.



Last edited by littlebee on 31 Jan 2014, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Jan 2014, 12:15 pm

mmcool wrote:
witch one do you like the most?

I like just autistic disorder. Mild is more severe than most realize.


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Last edited by Lumi on 31 Jan 2014, 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

littlebee
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31 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

mmcool wrote:
anyone?

mmcool (great name!) I have just spent about two hours (previous to writing what I just posted) researching into this subject. First, care to share why this is so interesting to you? Actually I became fascinated by what I found, but think the way you have tried to formulate the subject matter is kind of limiting. All that dsm stuff is too technical for me. If I knew why you are interested it might give me a clue about how to proceed. I am afraid anything I write may be off topic.I think sometimes it is necessary to go into different areas to approach a subject comprehensively, and for me that would be okay, as long at it brings the enquiry back home (or hone). Hmmmmmmm:-)

The one comment I do have to make now is that if you use one area of the brain more, the brain will develop more from that angle, the common equalizing factor being how well a person is able to function, and if a person starts off with mild autism or aspergers, if either is mild, as the person practices functioning he will begin using his brain in more generalized ways because he is able to participate more and more because whichever predisposition/condition he has is mild, so he will begin to develop other areas of brain function. From this perspective, if both people are able to function, it is just a subjective matter of right brain or left brain preference--whichever a person thinks and feels is better would be better. I would say to be able to use both areas of the brain flexibly and integratively would be the ideal.

Most people in general, speaking of all people, over-develop left brain function and get stuck there (but saying this is kind of simplistic, as left-brained people are less likely to be prejudiced or superstitious or blindly follow authority). All the inner meanings of the major religions of humanity are actually speaking about crystallized left-brain function and trying to address that problem in some way. Actually, from this perspective, the child who is originally approaching a bit more from right brain function might be better off psychologically than a child approaching from the angle of left brain off in terms of ultimately being more of a whole person if he is eventually able to develop left brain function more fully and be able to function in society and be self supporting, etc. His life could be much more gratifying and he would perhaps do less damage to the world than a compulsive left brain thinker. However, I was not that child and would not give up who I am.



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31 Jan 2014, 8:02 pm

mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I think your answer is practically impossible to answer. Diagnostically, many clinicians don't even see a difference between so-called "HFA" and "Asperger's" when dealing with clients. So, you may be asking "which label would you prefer to be sorted with, given the same symptoms in either case."

Mild autistic disorder and aspergers are different in ICD 10


Okay, well, I'm talking about things professionals have said in terms of identifying and distinguishing people for diagnosis of autism as compared to diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome. In terms of observation, many professionals find it difficult-to-impossible to distinguish adults who fit into each category from each other.


It appears to be based on early age development


Yes, I realize that, but the outcomes are quite similar.



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01 Feb 2014, 11:00 am

Verdandi wrote:
mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
mmcool wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I think your answer is practically impossible to answer. Diagnostically, many clinicians don't even see a difference between so-called "HFA" and "Asperger's" when dealing with clients. So, you may be asking "which label would you prefer to be sorted with, given the same symptoms in either case."

Mild autistic disorder and aspergers are different in ICD 10


Okay, well, I'm talking about things professionals have said in terms of identifying and distinguishing people for diagnosis of autism as compared to diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome. In terms of observation, many professionals find it difficult-to-impossible to distinguish adults who fit into each category from each other.


It appears to be based on early age development


Yes, I realize that, but the outcomes are quite similar.


i do not know how to commet on this.



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01 Feb 2014, 3:12 pm

Marybird wrote:
People with Aspergers generally have a higher verbal IQ and people with HFA have a higher performance IQ.
There have been studies that support this.
Here is a link to one. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0025372
I identify with mild autistic disorder. I have higher PIQ and have a dx of atypical autism but not from an autism expert. I do meet requirements for ASD in DSM 5 in all categories.


Thanks for sharing this. My Perceptual Reasoning Index (aka PRI) which I believe equates to performance IQ is higher than my Verbal Comprehension Index (aka VCI) which I believe equates to verbal IQ. By a little less than 1 standard deviation. The Psychologist (who diagnosed me) did indicate that this was a bit atypical for those diagnosed with Aspergers.

Schneekugel wrote:
The thing was the speech delay. According to diagnostic rules, HFA must have speech delay as toddler.


Does anyone know what speech delay means? Is it simply not making any sounds at all? According to my Mom, people (including my Mom) had a hard time understanding what I was saying between the ages of 2-4. It was almost as if I was babbling. I assume that is not speech delay, but something else.



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01 Feb 2014, 3:24 pm

Personally, I very slightly prefer having Asperger's. But I've taken to saying iAsperger's/igh-functioning autism. Doesn't matter. I'm no different, whatever I'm called.


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