I finally really get why NTs might not like us

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wozeree
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30 Jan 2014, 1:22 am

League_Girl wrote:
wozeree wrote:
dc2610 wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
Also because we can be annoying as f**k with a tendency to blurt out things that hurt their feelings.


I once put my hand on a woman's stomach and asked her if she was pregnant. She wasn't.


I did exactly that just recently. So embarrassing and I felt horrible because I'm pretty big myself and I just drew attention to her. But she was skinny everywhere else, it was very confusing!! ! I should really just stop talking to people altogether!




You don't ever ask anyone if they are pregnant, even if it's obvious. NTs break this social rule too. Also never out your hand on the woman's belly without her permission. NTs also do this too and lot of pregnant women do not like it. My common sister in law who is pregnant always says no whenever people ask if she is just to mess with them. Then they feel bad for even asking. I don't know how her belly looks now instead of looking like having a gut.


After that mistake, I mentally created the exact rule that you just described. Nonetheless, I'm not ungrateful to see it written out to further cement it into my brain. The weird thing being that I don't normally go around touching people at all, I kind of surprised myself, it was without thought.



ezbzbfcg2
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31 Jan 2014, 3:23 am

Personally, whenever someone says hello to me, even if they catch me off guard, I'm always quick to offer my own hello in response. I don't think it's an NT-AS thing, since acknowledging someone's greeting has nothing to do with brain wiring or non-verbal communication. It's basic common courtesy which is taught, not inherit, to NTs and aspies alike.

That said, I do feel awkward randomly saying hello to strangers because I often get that vibe that they want nothing to do with me. On a few occasions, I felt it was necessary to acknowledge someone's presence (like me and someone else having to pass on a narrow sidewalk, etc.) and when I've said hello first, with a smile and a nod, sometimes I've been ignored. While I would never get hostile like the guy from dianthus's example, I do feel a bit slighted. I shrug it off, but I've thought, "Gee, what was that person's problem? They think I'm too far beneath them to be acknowledged?"

And perhaps it is a male-female thing, as I suppose women are more concerned with unwanted hostility from random men. And maybe that's why League Girl felt scared addressing the bum, whereas I would have offered him change or told him, "Sorry, no money." But even a bum on the street would get my acknowledgement. Regardless, I still don't believe having Asperger's is an excuse for not comprehending social niceties, as they're learned, not innate, and can be comprehended by aspies.

And getting back to the OP's original point, if a (presumed) NT doesn't socialize with me, then I may take offense, because I feel like they can't be bothered acknowledging me.



NarcissusSavage
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31 Jan 2014, 4:55 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I shrug it off, but I've thought, "Gee, what was that person's problem? They think I'm too far beneath them to be acknowledged?"


Imagine if you had been communicating with someone on a non-verbal level and they never responded or acknowledged you?

I’ve always assumed it was that. When someone who is generally a decent person simply cannot get along with someone with autism, I think that the main culprit is that the NT feels rebuffed and unacknowledged. They feel slighted.

Now, that isn’t to say the NT isn’t just a dick who’s spotted himself an easy mark. That happens too.



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31 Jan 2014, 5:00 am

I think its because we have no charisma or likeability to attract them



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31 Jan 2014, 5:54 am

In an german general psychotherapy forum, someone was very good describing, why her coworker having an reduced mimic, caused her to feel uncomfortable about this person and even caused some mild aggression against that person. So the topic was not about autism or Asperger at all.

She described that for her and her coworkers, when that new person came into the office, the reduced mimic made it hard for them to adapt to this person. So normally every social contact you do, even stuff like greeting, asking for some documents, ... seems to give NTs hints about an persons personality. So by interacting with new persons, you gather automatically informations about this persons personality, and by doing so you feel more and more comfortable with interacting with this person. With comfortable I mean being able to predict a persons behavior. So after a certain time you simply know, this person is like this and that, and if you act like this and that towards her, that this will cause sympathy for you, and if you this and that behavior this will cause antipathy.

With that new coworker, even after weeks, she did not have that comfortable feeling. So by every social interaction she still could not predict, if that might feel well for that coworker, or if the coworker feels negative about it, and so on. For her this unsafety about this person, was poisoning the atmosphere in the office, because "you simply did not feel comfortable".And the ongoing feeling of unsafety in her working place, caused her simply to get negative emotions, toward the coworker who caused that.

The threadwriter was not blaming the coworker, but simply wrote down, why she felt actually burdened and negative in her workplace. I found it very interesting, because you hardly ever find humans, analyzing their own feelings in that precise way, so that it gives you opportunity to understand the behavior. Most people simply would say: "That new person is somehow awful."



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31 Jan 2014, 7:21 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
And getting back to the OP's original point, if a (presumed) NT doesn't socialize with me, then I may take offense, because I feel like they can't be bothered acknowledging me.


Hi ezbzbfcg2.

That is, to me, in some sense an opposite disposition, but I do of course respect that is how you feel.

But NTs tend to like to socialize, while AS people would often prefer to not have to socialize.

So when someone ignores you, ignore them back. This means you are equals without having competeted (socially) about who is more dominant - that can piss off some NTs like no other thing ! !

When NTs feel fine about not socializing, that is great for us, because then we do not have to socialize either. Everyone are then equals.



Last edited by qawer on 31 Jan 2014, 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

hanyo
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31 Jan 2014, 7:25 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Personally, whenever someone says hello to me, even if they catch me off guard, I'm always quick to offer my own hello in response. I don't think it's an NT-AS thing, since acknowledging someone's greeting has nothing to do with brain wiring or non-verbal communication. It's basic common courtesy which is taught, not inherit, to NTs and aspies alike.


That is something I hate when I go out. I'd rather not say anything to anyone but I fear aggressive behavior if I don't respond.



droppy
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31 Jan 2014, 8:47 am

hanyo wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Personally, whenever someone says hello to me, even if they catch me off guard, I'm always quick to offer my own hello in response. I don't think it's an NT-AS thing, since acknowledging someone's greeting has nothing to do with brain wiring or non-verbal communication. It's basic common courtesy which is taught, not inherit, to NTs and aspies alike.


That is something I hate when I go out. I'd rather not say anything to anyone but I fear aggressive behavior if I don't respond.

When I am out of my house and people tell me "hello" they never get aggressive when I don't respond.



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31 Jan 2014, 9:52 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Sethno wrote:
dianthus wrote:
...One day a man said "good morning" to me and I didn't respond. I probably would have, but it caught me off guard...

Before I got out of earshot I heard him say, "WELL GOOD MORNING TO YOU TOO" in a disgusted tone of voice. People like that really scare me because they get offended at the slightest thing and it's hard to predict what they will do. I understand that he just wanted me to respond "good morning" or "how are you" or something like that. I just couldn't get the words out of my mouth in time...


I'll agree that that person is a goon.

For all he knew, you might have been deaf, might have been unable to speak, whatever.

Egocentric.

You likely didn't have to be autistic to get on that man's wrong side. Any person that didn't please his whim of the moment would likely have gotten that type of abuse.


There must be a lot of goons because I have gotten this reaction or a variation of it (You're Welcome) numerous times when I am in my own world and forget the social nicety


Some people think it is their job to teach other people manners. (Sort of like being a parent to everyone, but only bothering with the teaching part and not the taking care of people part.) Some of them mean well (I think--but I try to find a positive interpretation of other people's behavior whenever it is possible to do so) and think they are being helpful by reminding you/me/us/whoever of the social rules when we forget. Others just like to complain. For peace of mind, I just assume they are trying to be helpful/mothery, and then forget about it (but try to remember the correct response the next time--I do know I should say "hello"/"you're welcome"/
"thanks"/etc, and often remember, but sometimes I forget.)



Shikari
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31 Jan 2014, 12:03 pm

Quote:
The reason is that not socialising can be very offensive to a NT person.

Yes and no. Say for instance I meet someone, introduce myself, and try to make light conversation. If the other person doesn't return the courtesy, I'm going to assume that they don't like me and that they are full of themselves.
I'm not going to get offended if people don't automatically come up to talk to me. If they don't approach me, I'm not going to think much of it. I don't approach everybody either, and it's not that I dislike them or anything, and I'll assume the same goes for them as well.

Quote:
The whole purpose of socialisation is cooperation. When you do not socialise you indicate to a NT that you might not be willing to help him when in need. This is extremely scary to a NT (and to us as well I believe - being all alone when in trouble, you know!).

Cooperation is an important part of socialization, but when someone doesn't socialize, it's not that we don't think they will not help us out when in need. In fact, that has never entered my mind. It's more or less that we don't know how to be around them. It makes things uncomfortable when you don't know what to say or do to get them to start talking to you.

Quote:
So when we back out of socialising because someone is offensive to us it tells those NTs it does not take much for us to back out of the group - they generalize this to that it would not take that much for you to not be willing to help a NT in need.

All it does is tell us is that you probably don't really care for our company. That's what we are going to assume. We stop asking people to do things simply for the reason that we don't think they will want to.

Quote:
But we often do want to socialise as long as we are treated well. But that is possibly not enough to a NT. They want to be sure that you would be willing to help even when treated poorly.

We just want to socialize with those who it is easy to be around. People with whom we can talk about anything, and the conversation keeps flowing smoothly until it naturally dies out.

Quote:
And there the hate for AS people arise. (another aspect is that people with AS have low social status, which means NTs often do not think highly of us, to say it mildly!)

I don't think the hate for AS comes from that. A lot of it anyways is indifference. People start disliking aspies when they somehow prevent them from going about things as they normally would. If you can't do something because someone with AS is being to rigid about it, it causes frustration. If you can't go somewhere without someone with AS having a meltdown, it causes frustration. I could go on. All this frustration is annoying. People tend to back away from what they find frustrating or annoying.



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31 Jan 2014, 12:41 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Personally, whenever someone says hello to me, even if they catch me off guard, I'm always quick to offer my own hello in response. I don't think it's an NT-AS thing, since acknowledging someone's greeting has nothing to do with brain wiring or non-verbal communication. It's basic common courtesy which is taught, not inherit, to NTs and aspies alike.


I think you are mistaken. It has a lot to do with brain wiring. Sometimes I am not able to speak quickly or speak at all because of how my brain works. Many others here have said the same thing.

Also, I don't always hear people when they speak to me. And when I do, I may not realize they are talking to me if they are not looking at me or saying my name. This has everything to do with brain wiring. You are terribly misinformed if you think it does not.

hanyo wrote:
That is something I hate when I go out. I'd rather not say anything to anyone but I fear aggressive behavior if I don't respond.


I fear it too, especially in my job. I am constantly around people who may speak to me unexpectedly and say things I am not prepared to respond to. Some of them do get aggressive. Two customers grabbed me in the last month. I am not obligated to talk to these people as part of my job, it's not like I am ignoring someone I am supposed to be helping. They just want to be chatty which is a huge distraction from doing my job.



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31 Jan 2014, 9:34 pm

Sometimes a nonverbal acknowledgment is easier, but some kind of acknowledgement is good. I too am afraid of the anger that can result from ignoring someone else. People feel important to themselves and do not like being ignored, sometimes fight it.



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31 Jan 2014, 9:52 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
there are a lot of NTs out there who are open minded,kind and not instantly judgemental of autists,and have also known many judgemental high functioning autists-
including being the victim of bullying from some,whilst others across the autistic community use terms like retarded to insult an NT doing something unfunny and stupid [the actual insult is on those of us with ID],who target groups with bias or hate;
just look on the self diagnosis threads for a quick example...who bully victims because theyre different in some way.

the fact of the matter is,much of the autistic community are no different to NTs in many ways and can be just as bad in giving into peer pressure,and wanting to fit in at the price of individuality.
how a nice a person is does not depend on their neurotype,its their individual personality plus how theyre brought up and their life experiences.


I completely agree with this. very well said, people are all individuals, things are not split up into boxes.



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01 Feb 2014, 11:48 am

I think that's a third of it. The other two thirds are about our repetitive behaviors and talking on and on about our special interest.


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ezbzbfcg2
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02 Feb 2014, 7:54 pm

qawer wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
And getting back to the OP's original point, if a (presumed) NT doesn't socialize with me, then I may take offense, because I feel like they can't be bothered acknowledging me.


Hi ezbzbfcg2.

That is, to me, in some sense an opposite disposition, but I do of course respect that is how you feel.

But NTs tend to like to socialize, while AS people would often prefer to not have to socialize.

So when someone ignores you, ignore them back. This means you are equals without having competeted (socially) about who is more dominant - that can piss off some NTs like no other thing ! !

When NTs feel fine about not socializing, that is great for us, because then we do not have to socialize either. Everyone are then equals.


I'm not big on socialization and find it draining and difficult most of the time. That said, I was talking more about passive social interaction. Returning a courtesy, a few lines of quick chit-chat if someone starts talking to me, etc.

Like many with AS, I really don't want to talk to anyone either when I'm out and about. But at the same time, I believe manners and social graces dictate being pleasant and acknowledging someone in passing if they choose to acknowledge me. For this reason, I find it odd that aspies here deliberately ignore a "Hello" from someone. To tell me they can't comprehend the basics of replying to "hello" with another hello seems very bizarre to me, because, again, it has nothing to do with non-verbal social nuances. Politely responding to a greeting isn't an inherit traits of NTs, it's something that's learned. And those with AS shouldn't have any problems learning it too.

As far as "being equals," I feel you've missed the mark on NT social hierarchy. NTs can often tell something's 'off' about us. Rather than still being polite and acknowledging our presence, some NTs take this as carte blanche to deliberately mistreat us. Ignoring them is irrelevant, as in their minds we are already beneath them.

I'm not saying kowtow to NTs, what I'm saying is that you misunderstand how they judge social order. Regardless of interaction or ignoring them, they've already deemed you a lesser being, meaning you do not "remain equals" even if you don't reply to them.

And that's what it boils down to for me. Common courtesy and respect. You know, that which is learned and has nothing to do with innate social ability. If NTs don't want to socialize with me long-term, great. I probably wouldn't want to either. But if they're deliberately discourteous in passing because they've sized me up as beneath them, I take offense, because I believe everyone should be afforded the same basic courtesy and respect.

And stranger still are the people here, who have AS, who can't grasp this basic concept. Maybe some of us live in little bubbles and that's why some NTs are turned off by us.



Sare
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02 Feb 2014, 8:45 pm

ezbzbfcg2, I agree with you when you say that having good manners is something that is learned. Observing my own experiences, when I have chosen to deliberately ignore someone it is because I have been harbouring anger/resentment. Old hurts from past experiences that are clouding my present perspective. Our lens of the world is coloured (or fogged) by our experiences. It takes a certain level of awareness to change that patterning.

I also agree with your comments about NTs quickly judging and dismissing you as beneath them. However, I have also experienced the opposite. I have had individuals feel threatened by me and try to 'squash' me because they perceived me to be above them. They attempted to bring me down to their level or lower (knock me off the pedestal they put me on). So, it also takes a certain level of awareness to stop judging people automatically and at face-value.

I remember one female peer who thought I had come from a privileged background (she created a story in her head about me) simply because I was courteous to all. And seemed a bit 'naive', 'childlike' or 'carefree' in personality. I did not go around voicing all my troubles to people, so she assumed I had none. This projection of hers dictated how she treated me. For instance, she was very condescending, a bully, and sabotaged things. Her attitude told me a lot about her insecurities. I even chose to play with her and push her buttons because I could see them. The truth is, I have experienced extensive trauma. I have put in a lot of effort to resolve and overcome the effects of that trauma and all the wonderful 'stressors' that come with AS. There isn't much that effects (triggers) me these days, so my joy and my 'carefree' attitude is a reflection of my regained sense of 'well-being' rather than a reflection of lack of experiences. However, most people (including the traumatised youth I worked with) automatically interpret this way of being as naivete and vulnerability. They aren't able to comprehend/see it for what it really is because it is outside their experience (reality). So, I don't take it personally or let it bring me down.

I actually chose to return and 'educate' a few staff (including this female peer) after I had finished my placement about their misconceptions. I informed them of my experiences and allowed them to experience a healthy dose of shame (not the toxic kind). :)


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Last edited by Sare on 02 Feb 2014, 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.