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Sedentarian
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01 Feb 2014, 11:46 am

Lets just not date and avoid all that confusion.


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01 Feb 2014, 1:28 pm

Alphas are often against the greater good and are merely a remnant of an archaic tribal society.

I think it's important to realize that our instincts may be geared towards a more civilized form of society, contrary to our more tribal nt cousins.

Social ranking comes along with a large amount of primate behavior that we often lack. Our honesty, our unwillingness to go along with the tribe, our individualistic nature(pro democractic) , our detachment from gender roles, and gravitation towards objective terms( the truth over hype) seems to suggest we really do have a less tribal attitude.

I think our biggest problem is that we've been conditioned to be submissive to a tribal society. I think its definitely time to acknowledge that time is on our side. Just looking at the anti bullying campaigns, harrasment law etc, and it's clear that things will only improve.



Joe90
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01 Feb 2014, 2:20 pm

Reading this thread has fed my depression. :cry:


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Stoek
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01 Feb 2014, 3:13 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Reading this thread has fed my depression. :cry:



Meh if you read between the lines it's easy to see that many of our true problems as aspies are the issues surrounding social status. I think supposed issues with social skills are often sidetracking on the main point. Realizing this I think is empowering, and main actually provide tangible benefits instead of this nonsense of learning to say please and thank you.



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01 Feb 2014, 4:58 pm

I'm alpha. Extremely.


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babybird
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01 Feb 2014, 5:03 pm

I'm not Alpha, but then I don't consider myself to be Beta either.

I think I like to dance to the beat of my own drum.

I think I'm more of a maverick type person.

I don't like to lead and I certainly never follow.


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LastSanityJermaine
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01 Feb 2014, 5:39 pm

GinBlossoms wrote:
Yes, and anyone with ASD who at least tries to improve their social position in society/dating is considered a sellout...similar to the black community.

I guess I'm selling out both



Dillogic
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01 Feb 2014, 6:17 pm

I'm Stigma.



qawer
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01 Feb 2014, 7:33 pm

arielhawksquill wrote:
qawer wrote:
If I chose to look past it I would come to look like a naiive fool. It is impossible to remove, all that happens when you try to ignore it is that you lower yourself in the hierarchy, and individuals who would normally be considered even lower-ranking than you in this system suddenly seem to believe they should take a shot at you getting together, because you all of a sudden actually seem to fit because of your too kind attitude.


So you are bothered by the idea that low-status women will try to hit on you if you aren't an alpha? Isn't that a little hypocritical?


Could you elaborate on that question, not completely sure I get what you mean by that?


What bothers me is that my looks, education, etc. count nothing as long as I have the attitude that people are of equal worth. So low-status women believing people are not of equal worth will exploit that naiive but desirable attitude and attempt to make a fool out of me (of course without telling me - I've tried that, well knowing but without expressing that knowledge, and it made me furious, because in case I had not known, they would successfully have made a fool out of me! :D ).

So in the dating scene you are punished heavily as long as you believe people are of equal worth (lower-ranking individuals will exploit knowing your status is higher than theirs). That is what bothers me, because I would want to believe that people are of equal worth.

Conclusion: One should become a prick.



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01 Feb 2014, 8:00 pm

My footing in the social hierarchy is so low that I'd honestly consider myself an omega. Life is hard when you're born at the wrong end of the Greek alphabet. :lol:

Just kidding. I'm honestly not sure if terms like alpha and beta can accurately describe human social behaviour in the same way it can for animals like wolves, chimpanzees and other primates.



pensieve
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01 Feb 2014, 9:18 pm

qawer wrote:
How does one deal with being (considered) a failure/loser? Disregard the social hierarchy, and try to live life on your own terms?

Ignore it, basically and just keep doing what I do, i.e being impulsive, talking about things I have no clue whether they are appropriate or not and failing to react with the right words and body language.

The people I know never let on that they think of me as inferior and I don't much care if they see me that way. I'm just continuing to do what I do and I'm using them more to advance my social skills or at least make me feel good about being able to get a few more things. I mean I love being around my friends but sometimes I haven't any patience to act in the ways they expect.

Norepinephrine wrote:
Just kidding. I'm honestly not sure if terms like alpha and beta can accurately describe human social behaviour in the same way it can for animals like wolves, chimpanzees and other primates.


I was thinking the same thing. I relate it to the beta version of video games which I always thought are more or less bug free and fixed up versions of the alpha.

Good name by the way. I've always love the word norepinephrine, even if three years on Ritalin gave me heightened anxiety.


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01 Feb 2014, 9:53 pm

I'm not alpha, beta, or omega.

My social skills are so poor that I don't even "get on the board."

Furthermore, I believe such distinctions are overly simplistic when applied to humans. Humans have the most complex social system of any primate species, which is exactly why it blows to be autistic.


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01 Feb 2014, 10:31 pm

qawer wrote:
arielhawksquill wrote:
qawer wrote:
If I chose to look past it I would come to look like a naiive fool. It is impossible to remove, all that happens when you try to ignore it is that you lower yourself in the hierarchy, and individuals who would normally be considered even lower-ranking than you in this system suddenly seem to believe they should take a shot at you getting together, because you all of a sudden actually seem to fit because of your too kind attitude.


So you are bothered by the idea that low-status women will try to hit on you if you aren't an alpha? Isn't that a little hypocritical?


Could you elaborate on that question, not completely sure I get what you mean by that?


What bothers me is that my looks, education, etc. count nothing as long as I have the attitude that people are of equal worth. So low-status women believing people are not of equal worth will exploit that naiive but desirable attitude and attempt to make a fool out of me (of course without telling me - I've tried that, well knowing but without expressing that knowledge, and it made me furious, because in case I had not known, they would successfully have made a fool out of me! :D ).

So in the dating scene you are punished heavily as long as you believe people are of equal worth (lower-ranking individuals will exploit knowing your status is higher than theirs). That is what bothers me, because I would want to believe that people are of equal worth.

Conclusion: One should become a prick.


If you unironically use phrases like "lower-ranking individuals" and "low-status women" then your actual level of belief or attitude that people are of equal worth is questionable. "I want to believe people are equal but these lower-status people keep taking advantage of me" is a really weird contradictory stance to take.



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01 Feb 2014, 10:37 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm not alpha, beta, or omega.

My social skills are so poor that I don't even "get on the board."

Furthermore, I believe such distinctions are overly simplistic when applied to humans. Humans have the most complex social system of any primate species, which is exactly why it blows to be autistic.


The notion of alphas came from now discredited research into wolf packs that involved observing packs constructed and observed in captivity, who behaved in ways that wolves do not behave in the wild. It's been generalized to other species (such as baboons and humans) but largely has no valid scientific grounding.

Pickup artists and MRAs love to appeal to the notion of "alpha males" and such but I think they're largely looking for some quality to blame that isn't their own personalities for their dating and relationship difficulties.



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02 Feb 2014, 1:31 am

Verdandi wrote:
qawer wrote:
arielhawksquill wrote:
qawer wrote:
If I chose to look past it I would come to look like a naiive fool. It is impossible to remove, all that happens when you try to ignore it is that you lower yourself in the hierarchy, and individuals who would normally be considered even lower-ranking than you in this system suddenly seem to believe they should take a shot at you getting together, because you all of a sudden actually seem to fit because of your too kind attitude.


So you are bothered by the idea that low-status women will try to hit on you if you aren't an alpha? Isn't that a little hypocritical?


Could you elaborate on that question, not completely sure I get what you mean by that?


What bothers me is that my looks, education, etc. count nothing as long as I have the attitude that people are of equal worth. So low-status women believing people are not of equal worth will exploit that naiive but desirable attitude and attempt to make a fool out of me (of course without telling me - I've tried that, well knowing but without expressing that knowledge, and it made me furious, because in case I had not known, they would successfully have made a fool out of me! :D ).

So in the dating scene you are punished heavily as long as you believe people are of equal worth (lower-ranking individuals will exploit knowing your status is higher than theirs). That is what bothers me, because I would want to believe that people are of equal worth.

Conclusion: One should become a prick.


If you unironically use phrases like "lower-ranking individuals" and "low-status women" then your actual level of belief or attitude that people are of equal worth is questionable. "I want to believe people are equal but these lower-status people keep taking advantage of me" is a really weird contradictory stance to take.


Ah yeah of course, that way. I understand the objection!

The reason it does not seem that way to me is that,

- Emotionally, at heart, I feel people are of equal worth (when I had not learned about social dynamics academically I did not in any way see all the nuances to determining someone's "rank" - emotion was (and is) based on well intended good treatment of others).

- Intellectually/logically, I can (now) see people have different possibilities of survival, disregarding how they treat other people. The survival possibility determines the "rank".


So I can attach very little true, lasting emotion to the intellectual "rank" of people - if any at all really! I cannot care about successful people who treat me badly. This annoyed the hell out of my former boss. I just did not like him, despite his big car and successful career. I could not properly hide it either because I began the avoidance manoeuvre some of you may recognize.

But I know intellectually and from experience that others in fact do attach very much emotion to the rank of people, so I would feel like a fool if I let someone with "lower rank" exploit my feelings by realizing they just needed to treat me well in order to trick me.

For that reason I feel like I cannot escape the ranking aspect when it comes to relationships, because I could never be sure of the intentions on the other part - actually making it quite difficult for me to fall in love the way I feel I was meant to. A "ranking" levelling my own would actually be the only way of convincing me of their intentions (and having AS that really ain't very high!).

It's like, of course I do want to survive, but I do not attach genuine emotion to humans simply because they are good survivors. This is contradictory in the dating scene and on the job market.

Is that view also hypocritical, you think? :scratch:



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02 Feb 2014, 9:50 am

qawer wrote:
But I know intellectually and from experience that others in fact do attach very much emotion to the rank of people, so I would feel like a fool if I let someone with "lower rank" exploit my feelings by realizing they just needed to treat me well in order to trick me.

For that reason I feel like I cannot escape the ranking aspect when it comes to relationships, because I could never be sure of the intentions on the other part - actually making it quite difficult for me to fall in love the way I feel I was meant to. A "ranking" levelling my own would actually be the only way of convincing me of their intentions (and having AS that really ain't very high!).


I'm not sure what these "low-ranking" women might be trying to "trick" you into doing--having a relationship with them? Of course it is true that there is a better chance of true love and successful communication between equals, so if you're going to try to play the heirarchy game you should try to find a partner in your own "league", as they say.

I hate to tell you this, but when it comes to NT "ranking" YOU are low-ranked because you have a disability. :( All of those fat, ugly, mentally ill, or socioeconomically disadvantaged women you consider below you are actually in your league.