90% aspies have normal intelligence despite what they think

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JSBACHlover
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15 Mar 2014, 10:50 pm

I'm a genius. You're a cat.



cyberdad
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15 Mar 2014, 10:57 pm

linatet wrote:
I read that almost all (in other source it actually said 99%) aspies have normal intelligence despite the fact that most think they are very intelligent themselves. .

Your premise is invalid and therefore the discussion that follows will be confounded.

People diagnosed with Aspergers prior to May 2013 based on DSMIV (or the equivalent ICD version) were defined as having an IQ > 70 in addition to not having a delay in the acquisition of communication/speech. Subsequent research has found that all prior diagnosis along the ASD spectrum (PDD-NOS, Autism) the estimates for those with IQ < 70 (intellectually retarded) may have been overestimated due to developmental changes where adults diagnosed with low IQ as children developed more normal IQ profiles with age.

Secondly the term "normal" is problematic within the Aspergers profile as for NTs "normal" is defined > 100 which precludes many people with Aspergers,.



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15 Mar 2014, 11:00 pm

Si_82 wrote:
If correctly diagnosed, Asperger's required "average or above average intelligence". Not having AS does not come with any such caveat. Therefore, mathematically speaking the average intelligence of the AS population has to be higher than the average of the general population as the general population includes those with below average intelligence. Basic maths!


It is pretty basic as far as math goes and it is a logically valid conclusion. it's also not true. Studies I've read indicate average IQ for people diagnosed with AS are slightly lower than the average for the entire population. It's a minor enough difference that it can be dismissed as statistical noise.

I think average or above means you can be within 1 point of one sigma below 100, so 86+. Past that point the number of people drop off dramatically, just as they drop off dramatically as you exceed 114. The majority will fall into that range.

KingdomOfRats wrote:
]there are a lot of aspies who wave high IQ scores around like theyve got nothing else to be proud about,but theres also a lot of high functioning autistics who self diagnose themselves as being intelectualy disabled because their high self awareness crosses paths with their low self esteem and struggles that have not yet been supported properly.
those of us who are intelectualy disabled actualy lack that level of self awareness and ability to compare ourselves to others plus lack ability to feel peer pressure,we might know of our weaknesses only through repetition of what others have told us but it doesnt mean anything bad or good to us.


I know for sure I'm not intellectually disabled, but most of what I know about myself comes from other people telling me. I'm supposed to have a high IQ (but I mostly mention it to point out that high IQ does not mean "functions better"), but I don't seem to have as much self-awareness as I seem to be expected to (not to say I don't have any). I didn't really compare myself to others until I started reading stuff that resonated with me about autism and later ADHD. I still have people pointing stuff out that I do that is symptomatic or otherwise out of the ordinary.

I think maybe a better word for what I am trying to say is "insight." It's often used in reference to schizophrenia (as well as the lack of it - called "anosognosia"), I have spent most of my life lacking insight into my differences from other people and for the most part this didn't bother me. I did find it strange and frustrating that other people were willing to allow overloading sensory environments to exist when clearly they were terrible, I just didn't know they weren't terrible for everyone.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm still trying to properly understand myself and statements you've made recently have helped in that regard.



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15 Mar 2014, 11:02 pm

Let's face it. We're all genii!!


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15 Mar 2014, 11:25 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Si_82 wrote:
If correctly diagnosed, Asperger's required "average or above average intelligence". Not having AS does not come with any such caveat. Therefore, mathematically speaking the average intelligence of the AS population has to be higher than the average of the general population as the general population includes those with below average intelligence. Basic maths!


It is pretty basic as far as math goes and it is a logically valid conclusion. it's also not true. Studies I've read indicate average IQ for people diagnosed with AS are slightly lower than the average for the entire population. It's a minor enough difference that it can be dismissed as statistical noise.

I think average or above means you can be within 1 point of one sigma below 100, so 86+. Past that point the number of people drop off dramatically, just as they drop off dramatically as you exceed 114. The majority will fall into that range.

KingdomOfRats wrote:
]there are a lot of aspies who wave high IQ scores around like theyve got nothing else to be proud about,but theres also a lot of high functioning autistics who self diagnose themselves as being intelectualy disabled because their high self awareness crosses paths with their low self esteem and struggles that have not yet been supported properly.
those of us who are intelectualy disabled actualy lack that level of self awareness and ability to compare ourselves to others plus lack ability to feel peer pressure,we might know of our weaknesses only through repetition of what others have told us but it doesnt mean anything bad or good to us.


I know for sure I'm not intellectually disabled, but most of what I know about myself comes from other people telling me. I'm supposed to have a high IQ (but I mostly mention it to point out that high IQ does not mean "functions better"), but I don't seem to have as much self-awareness as I seem to be expected to (not to say I don't have any). I didn't really compare myself to others until I started reading stuff that resonated with me about autism and later ADHD. I still have people pointing stuff out that I do that is symptomatic or otherwise out of the ordinary.

I think maybe a better word for what I am trying to say is "insight." It's often used in reference to schizophrenia (as well as the lack of it - called "anosognosia"), I have spent most of my life lacking insight into my differences from other people and for the most part this didn't bother me. I did find it strange and frustrating that other people were willing to allow overloading sensory environments to exist when clearly they were terrible, I just didn't know they weren't terrible for everyone.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm still trying to properly understand myself and statements you've made recently have helped in that regard.

hi callista,
how far does the lack of self awareness go?
lacking self awareness is definitely not exclusive to us lot-have seen many people on WP experience it,especialy those more newer to their diagnoses but one thing woud say with self awareness in ID is we acutely lack the awareness to the point we dont recognise different races,visualy obvious disabilities or the differences in genders,these are also concepts we dont 'get'....perhaps are the same?
it might be that the level of autism is affecting self awareness callista,have always thought were in the severe end of HFA.


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15 Mar 2014, 11:27 pm

wozeree wrote:
I wish I thought I was a genius. It would be a nice delusion to live with.

I already lived under a similar delusion, when I was a teenager my mother told me that I was said "gifted" once by professionals as a child. I came to support the little I kept of self-esteem during a depression by this, but later tests showed to not be the case. (At least not anymore.) I still can't really get over with. I guess one should not base his self-esteem on such a thing. :(



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15 Mar 2014, 11:43 pm

Tollorin wrote:
wozeree wrote:
I wish I thought I was a genius. It would be a nice delusion to live with.

I already lived under a similar delusion, when I was a teenager my mother told me that I was said "gifted" once by professionals as a child. I came to support the little I kept of self-esteem during a depression by this, but later tests showed to not be the case. (At least not anymore.) I still can't really get over with. I guess one should not base his self-esteem on such a thing. :(

just because have not got the label of 'giftedness' anymore doesnt mean cant be gifted/skilled,that is just a label it doesnt really say anything about the person.
sister who is in her thirties is a 'gifted' aspie and it isnt like she is out there inventing new stuff and curing diseases,being low,mid or high iq just gives a different perception of the world.

humans are their own worst enemies and always put themselves down unless theyre narcisistic, we need to look at what we do have and not what we dont have,looking at what we dont have wil never change anything and will cause depression for some people whilst looking at what we do have can help esteem and realise they do have skills.

am intelectualy disabled but have skills around interacting/communicating with animals, basic penetration testing using gui tools; and frameworks,linux,being a dressage rider and show jumper to special and paralympics standard,and being an ID and autism activist in the offline community.


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yellowtamarin
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15 Mar 2014, 11:43 pm

I thought it was the other way around. For myself that's true, anyway. The WAIS reckons I am a genius but there's not much evidence of that in the way I present myself and my achievements in life. If I never took the WAIS I'd have estimated my "intelligence" to be well below what that silly test says. In fact I still do...



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15 Mar 2014, 11:52 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
wozeree wrote:
I wish I thought I was a genius. It would be a nice delusion to live with.

I already lived under a similar delusion, when I was a teenager my mother told me that I was said "gifted" once by professionals as a child. I came to support the little I kept of self-esteem during a depression by this, but later tests showed to not be the case. (At least not anymore.) I still can't really get over with. I guess one should not base his self-esteem on such a thing. :(

just because have not got the label of 'giftedness' anymore doesnt mean cant be gifted/skilled,that is just a label it doesnt really say anything about the person.
sister who is in her thirties is a 'gifted' aspie and it isnt like she is out there inventing new stuff and curing diseases,being low,mid or high iq just gives a different perception of the world.

humans are their own worst enemies and always put themselves down unless theyre narcisistic, we need to look at what we do have and not what we dont have,looking at what we dont have wil never change anything and will cause depression for some people whilst looking at what we do have can help esteem and realise they do have skills.

am intelectualy disabled but have skills around interacting/communicating with animals, basic penetration testing using gui tools; and frameworks,linux,being a dressage rider and show jumper to special and paralympics standard,and being an ID and autism activist in the offline community.



I agree with that totally. And if you're a nice person who doesn't go around knocking others own to get what you want or being malicious for the fun of it - to me that counts toward IQ. It's weird because you always hear people saying things like "Ted Bundy was super intelligent," but c'mon, we need to define intelligence pretty differently if that is true.



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16 Mar 2014, 12:39 am

KingdomOfRats wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Si_82 wrote:
If correctly diagnosed, Asperger's required "average or above average intelligence". Not having AS does not come with any such caveat. Therefore, mathematically speaking the average intelligence of the AS population has to be higher than the average of the general population as the general population includes those with below average intelligence. Basic maths!


It is pretty basic as far as math goes and it is a logically valid conclusion. it's also not true. Studies I've read indicate average IQ for people diagnosed with AS are slightly lower than the average for the entire population. It's a minor enough difference that it can be dismissed as statistical noise.

I think average or above means you can be within 1 point of one sigma below 100, so 86+. Past that point the number of people drop off dramatically, just as they drop off dramatically as you exceed 114. The majority will fall into that range.

KingdomOfRats wrote:
]there are a lot of aspies who wave high IQ scores around like theyve got nothing else to be proud about,but theres also a lot of high functioning autistics who self diagnose themselves as being intelectualy disabled because their high self awareness crosses paths with their low self esteem and struggles that have not yet been supported properly.
those of us who are intelectualy disabled actualy lack that level of self awareness and ability to compare ourselves to others plus lack ability to feel peer pressure,we might know of our weaknesses only through repetition of what others have told us but it doesnt mean anything bad or good to us.


I know for sure I'm not intellectually disabled, but most of what I know about myself comes from other people telling me. I'm supposed to have a high IQ (but I mostly mention it to point out that high IQ does not mean "functions better"), but I don't seem to have as much self-awareness as I seem to be expected to (not to say I don't have any). I didn't really compare myself to others until I started reading stuff that resonated with me about autism and later ADHD. I still have people pointing stuff out that I do that is symptomatic or otherwise out of the ordinary.

I think maybe a better word for what I am trying to say is "insight." It's often used in reference to schizophrenia (as well as the lack of it - called "anosognosia"), I have spent most of my life lacking insight into my differences from other people and for the most part this didn't bother me. I did find it strange and frustrating that other people were willing to allow overloading sensory environments to exist when clearly they were terrible, I just didn't know they weren't terrible for everyone.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm still trying to properly understand myself and statements you've made recently have helped in that regard.

hi callista,
how far does the lack of self awareness go?
lacking self awareness is definitely not exclusive to us lot-have seen many people on WP experience it,especialy those more newer to their diagnoses but one thing woud say with self awareness in ID is we acutely lack the awareness to the point we dont recognise different races,visualy obvious disabilities or the differences in genders,these are also concepts we dont 'get'....perhaps are the same?
it might be that the level of autism is affecting self awareness callista,have always thought were in the severe end of HFA.


That was me, actually, and I will admit it is flattering to be mistaken for someone as articulate and patient as Callista. :)

But seriously I am not sure what impairs my self-awareness and insight. I'm trying to understand this part and what you wrote led me to sort of respond and try to write it out because self-awareness for me is not always easy, and I am not always thinking and doing what I believe I am thinking and doing. I don't have the same stuff you describe, just to be clear. And it's on my mind because over the past few days a friend of mine has pointed out a whole new raft of issues that I didn't realize were issues or were different from other people. I started a thread about such things a few years ago (schizotypal traits in autistic people - which is apparently fairly common) but I didn't know how far those traits went for me - which is to say far enough that if I hadn't had autistic traits since childhood I could easily be diagnosed with schizotypal disorder..

The lack of self-awareness doesn't go as far as you describe. I am aware of differences in race, differences in gender (although they don't always make sense to me), visually obvious disabilities, etc. I'll have to organize my thinking on this a bit better because I was not really as coherent on the topic as I wanted to be.



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16 Mar 2014, 1:01 am

linatet wrote:
It was said that they apparently appear intelligent because of their good long term memory and extensive research on interested topics. Also some would score high on IQ tests because of the visual reasoning parts (those would be visual thinkers)
unfortunately I don't remember the sources but if you look up on the internet you are going to find it.
also it would count aspie/hfa/pdd because there is really no considerate difference on the diagnosis but some places give the asperger label for the most intelligent ones so...
is it true? What do you think?
if you don't think it is true no answer as "no because I am really very intelligent" please :lol: it doesn't count as evidence against the above claim.


Sounds right to me. People think I'm smart due to being able to remember pretty much every fact I learn. I'm really, really, not though.


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16 Mar 2014, 1:11 am

wozeree wrote:
I wish I thought I was a genius. It would be a nice delusion to live with.


Believe me. It's not all that it's crack up to be. As Darwin put it. It's not the strongest nor the smartest that survive. It's those who are willing to adapt.



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16 Mar 2014, 2:57 am

IQ Tests are not valid for people on the spectrum. One reason IQ tests are given during assessments for autism is to determine strengths and weaknesses as defined by subtests. Scatter among subtest scores is specifically looked for as it is one clue that points to autism. One poster on this thread pointed out earlier that he/she had all average subtest scores, with the exception of one which was 19, the highest subtest score possible. I too had subtest scores that were 19, while others were on the low side of average. This is extremely common in autism and on its own invalidates the IQ test for that individual. Another poster spoke about a student who was extremely good in math, but was dragged down by poor English grades. If the student took an IQ test the discrepancy would without a doubt show up on the test as significant subtest scatter. Over the years there have been many threads on wrong planet where people have posted their subtest scores. If you're interested, just search "subtest score".
In the overall scheme of things, the IQ threads are pointless because we just don't think like non-ASD people and the IQ tests are calibrated for non-ASD people. Instead of worrying about your IQ score focus on this subtests and improve on your weaknesses; that's the only thing IQ tests are useful for.



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16 Mar 2014, 3:25 am

I'm gifted in a few areas, but I wouldn't say that my intelligence is all-around. I will admit, I do feel smarter than the average person in a few ways, but in many others I feel like a bumbling fool. My math skills are terrible, my processing speed isn't that great, and my sense of logic is rather inflexible. On the other hand, I can memorize freakish amounts of random trivia, I have a seemingly-natural gift for working with computers, I have a bit of a penchant for coming up with unusual ideas, and, according to other people at least, I have a fairly decent command of the English language.

As far as my IQ goes, which I consider to be separate from my actual "intelligence", the last time I took an official IQ test I scored 125. In other words, I'm regarded as having above-average intelligence, or at least I was around 9-10 years ago when I took this test. If I were to take a similar test now, I probably wouldn't score as highly.



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16 Mar 2014, 4:47 am

Unlike the stereotype 90% of aspies are not savants.


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16 Mar 2014, 4:48 am

** Double Post **


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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman