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anthropic_principle
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21 Oct 2014, 12:24 am

after having read the 'manifesto', yes i'd say so.
i get the impression some asperger people reject the idea simply because they object to being associated with him.



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21 Oct 2014, 5:37 am

VioletYoshi wrote:
In most communities when someone does something wrong they try to seek ways for it not to happen again. On WrongPlanet as it seems elsewhere in the Autism community the modus operandi is to deny deny deny. Now being a female Aspie I've run into several men who felt enttled to me, who couldn't handle being told no or rejected by a woman. Why are we bickering over this instead of facing the reality women feel unsafe at Autism support groups?


Not everything is about your bad experience at a support group.


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21 Oct 2014, 6:06 am

Verdandi wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
He was never diagnosed.

Although none of these things are mutually exclusive with autism, he strikes me as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder, being a psychopath, and having a good dollop of psychosis thrown in for good measure.


Nothing he wrote was indicative of psychosis. Just overly entitled racist misogynist dudeliness.

Psychosis is not an inherently violent condition, and someone who is psychotic is more likely to harm themselves than anyone else.

Sorry, I know this post is old but I have to disagree about your first point (though I agree with the second point). He obviously had delusions of grandeur and, from memory, also delusions of persecution. That's indicative of psychosis.



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21 Oct 2014, 6:10 am

The Walrus, many people on the Autism spectrum can have delusions of persecution due to the trauma of years of being bullied. As for delusions of grandeur, have you read the Aspie superiority threads here?



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21 Oct 2014, 6:22 am

I don't know his backstory well enough to say he does or doesn't. I only know him for the last day of his life and little tidbits on the internet, I need a lifetime to know if someone is able to be diagnosed asperger's.

If he does or doesn't, either way, he's a result of very poor parenting. He was spoiled, he was taught he can have whatever he wants without working for it, and most importantly I don't think his parents were there to guide him for a good portion of his life. I just feel no one ever taught him right from wrong. Weather or not he had asperger's, it shouldn't matter, even had he been neurotypical and free of any other outlying mental illnesses I think there were a lot of issues in his life that brought up his entitlement problems.


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21 Oct 2014, 6:34 am

I suppose it is possible that a person with autism traits could also be a sociopath. It's very rare. But it is still possible. Even if Eliot Rogers or Adam Lanza did have some kind of autism condition it's a bit like saying John Wayne Gacy was a homosexual. Well some people would say that Gacy was not really homosexual because he sexually assaulted and murdered mostly teenage boys. But at least technically speaking Gacy was attracted to the same sex - so in that sense he was homosexual.

If Eliot Rogers or Adam Lanza had an autism condition it does not change the fact that people with autism are far, far more likely to be victims of aggression than they are to carry it out. It takes something a lot more than autism alone or homosexuality alone as in the case of Gacy to commit such a heinous crime


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21 Oct 2014, 11:27 am

VioletYoshi wrote:
The Walrus, many people on the Autism spectrum can have delusions of persecution due to the trauma of years of being bullied. As for delusions of grandeur, have you read the Aspie superiority threads here?


True.

I don't know why people act like autism can't be co-morbid with narcissism or mental illness. I get that nobody wants to be tarred with the same brush as Roger Elliot, but he was one in a million anyway - in a bad way. It goes without saying that very, very few autistics will ever harm another person, but I feel like I need to say it anyway, so that people don't go all defensive when I say that I believe that ER was on the spectrum.

He came across as autistic in his videos. And his manifesto reads like a checklist of autism traits - minus the crazy. In truth, I could identify with so much of what he wrote; even, I am afraid, the anger. I've worked hard on my rage issues over the past few years and have been very lucky to have a small number of online folks I can say anything to. But people in general don't seem to realise how profoundly bullying can affect you. I knew a guy who got a diagnosis of Asperger's in his late 20s, and he had nearly as much rage as ER did. Not against women, but against the society he lived in; he sometimes wrote detailed, violent fantasies and seemed to have an interest in school shootings. Note that this guy was very severely bullied in school - physically and mentally.

I was in the difficult position of actually being an admin and having the ability to delete or edit his posts. I did neither. I let him express his rage, uncensored. On the whole I don't think I ever thought he was seriously going to do anything - apart from perhaps once, where I did begin to have doubts that maybe, just maybe, he was capable of picking up a gun and going on a shooting spree. The moment passed. Last time I spoke to him, which was a couple of years ago, he seemed calmer and better within himself.

I reckon it's important to see rage as having a valid basis and at least try to understand the angry person's viewpoint, unless it's face-to-face and you are being physically threatened (in which case, make your escape ASAP). But if it's just words from behind a screen, then there's no physical threat to your being: you can afford to take on board what they have to say without feeling scared.



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21 Oct 2014, 12:03 pm

ya I hear some people say they think it was a scapegoat



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21 Oct 2014, 3:06 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
VioletYoshi wrote:
In most communities when someone does something wrong they try to seek ways for it not to happen again. On WrongPlanet as it seems elsewhere in the Autism community the modus operandi is to deny deny deny. Now being a female Aspie I've run into several men who felt enttled to me, who couldn't handle being told no or rejected by a woman. Why are we bickering over this instead of facing the reality women feel unsafe at Autism support groups?


Not everything is about your bad experience at a support group.


As with most people with Asperger's Syndrome I've had little social experience. I think it's mean knowing how that is to pick on me for relating to the only situation I have to refer to. I wish I could get help without having to fear for my psychological and in some cases physical safety. I've begged and cried for help, only to be told the only way to get it is joining a group with people who might hurt me. Having time and time again my pain invalidated because someone else with Autism couldn't help abusing me.

It's hearing things like being taunted for what few social experiences I've had after spending my teenage years going to support groups with unpredictable people. Hearing it doesn't matter I was nearly physically assaulted in a group. That I should just get over repeatedly being used and abused in places that should've been safe. It makes me want to give up on trying anymore.

I keep doing so only with the hope someone else won't have to go through what I went through. That is what support is, it's not silencing victims of abuse who are on the Autism spectrum, and telling them it doesn't matter. Don't we have enough trouble with NTs doing that? In fact "Not everything is about your bad experience at a support group." is the type of invaldating language a NT bully would use.



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21 Oct 2014, 3:51 pm

It seems like he has some consistencies with it. None of us know enough about him to say either way. There has to be some reason why a good looking kid was never able to get a date for 22 years. I don't know if NPD is enough to explain it. I think there must have been some sort of unusual social deficiencies, maybe Asperger's. But yeah, it doesn't mean everyone with Asperger's is going to go around killing people.


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21 Oct 2014, 4:27 pm

He didn't have autism, he had an obsession.

Even neurotypical people need to learn social skills. They might pick it up more quickly than autistic people do, but it's not just in-built. This kid never had that opportunity.

He is also an example of a child who was catered to for his entire life, in a way that more and more children are being catered to these days. These days, nobody wins or loses anything in schools, they all receive participation medals. You can't tell children off for not tidying their rooms, that's "negative"; instead you have to praise them to high heaven when they actually do it. And when Elliot Rodger found something that he felt entitled to but couldn't have, he just couldn't cope with that.

When he first moved, he didn't like the teacher at his new school. So his parents let him change schools.
His mum was organising "play dates" so he could make friends until he was in middle school.
She also didn't set any boundaries on his behaviour. He was going to internet cafes at 1am in the morning when he was 13.
The only person in Elliot's life who even attempted to get him to socialise for himself was his step mother, who he hated for it.
All of his friendships were transient, and Elliot only saw relationships as a transaction. Throughout his manifesto, he describes how badly done by he is by his family, his friends and girls he's attempted to date, because they didn't give him what he thought he was entitled to. In his mind, if he paid you attention, he deserved something in return.

There is actually one point in the manifesto where Elliot describes telling his friend about how evil all women are, and that friend's reaction is pretty much *backing away slowly*

I don't think there was anything wrong with Elliot Rodger other than he wanted to kill people because of perceived unfairness. That is what he said and I believe him. You don't have to have anything clinically wrong with you to be a nasty piece of work.



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21 Oct 2014, 4:44 pm

We live in a society where we do say something is clinically wrong with people who are a "piece of work" Also being obsessed and not understanding relationships are more than a transaction are problems Aspies have. Unless you're arguing a lack of socialization in itself can cause someone to develop Asperger's Syndrome, I don't see why Elliot wouldn't have Asperger's Syndrome. There are thousands of people who have dealt with neglect and social deprivation without becoming obsessed and killing people.

I'm not sure f people think I'm somehow happy at the thought Elliot could be on the spectrum, I'm not. What I am doing is facing the reality that it is possible. That I've seen similar behavior from other men on the specrum feeling unfairly friend zoned. It's also known that the pick up artist groups that boil relationships down to a math equation or something like that, are popular with some Aspies.

Part of being a large group of people is understanding some people in that group may do things that are unethical. The more the message is that we should look away and admonish those who don't follow the hivemind attitude that we just don't speak about bad things, more Autistic people will be abused and fearful to speak out about it. The end to that happening starts by recognizing it happens, and saying no to it.



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21 Oct 2014, 5:49 pm

I am surprised that we don't see many more ASD people go berserk.

- the bullying
- physical torture because sensitivities are violated
- learning disabilities (so laughed at over and over by students and teachers for years for "being dumb")
- functioning problems
- different than others

ASD + physical torture + humiliation + loner + low self-esteem = dangerous person



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21 Oct 2014, 6:14 pm

NiceCupOfTea wrote:
VioletYoshi wrote:
The Walrus, many people on the Autism spectrum can have delusions of persecution due to the trauma of years of being bullied. As for delusions of grandeur, have you read the Aspie superiority threads here?


True.

I don't know why people act like autism can't be co-morbid with narcissism or mental illness. I get that nobody wants to be tarred with the same brush as Roger Elliot, but he was one in a million anyway - in a bad way. It goes without saying that very, very few autistics will ever harm another person, but I feel like I need to say it anyway, so that people don't go all defensive when I say that I believe that ER was on the spectrum.

He came across as autistic in his videos. And his manifesto reads like a checklist of autism traits - minus the crazy. In truth, I could identify with so much of what he wrote; even, I am afraid, the anger. I've worked hard on my rage issues over the past few years and have been very lucky to have a small number of online folks I can say anything to. But people in general don't seem to realise how profoundly bullying can affect you. I knew a guy who got a diagnosis of Asperger's in his late 20s, and he had nearly as much rage as ER did. Not against women, but against the society he lived in; he sometimes wrote detailed, violent fantasies and seemed to have an interest in school shootings. Note that this guy was very severely bullied in school - physically and mentally.

I was in the difficult position of actually being an admin and having the ability to delete or edit his posts. I did neither. I let him express his rage, uncensored. On the whole I don't think I ever thought he was seriously going to do anything - apart from perhaps once, where I did begin to have doubts that maybe, just maybe, he was capable of picking up a gun and going on a shooting spree. The moment passed. Last time I spoke to him, which was a couple of years ago, he seemed calmer and better within himself.

I reckon it's important to see rage as having a valid basis and at least try to understand the angry person's viewpoint, unless it's face-to-face and you are being physically threatened (in which case, make your escape ASAP). But if it's just words from behind a screen, then there's no physical threat to your being: you can afford to take on board what they have to say without feeling scared.


This ^^

There are SO many people with asperger who can relate to ER's backstory. Maybe his obsessions with sex and status was just his 'thing' altho for 99,9999% of the people it is psycho. Maybe he did really felt inferior on a fundamental level (look at the skateboard / motorskill part when he was younger in his manifesto ) but tried to camouflage that by acting superior or trying to get a high status. Is there really a difference between that and someone with autism who is obsessed with trains or collecting small cars?

He did have some clear AS characteristics like i have posted earlier in this topic. The monotonic voice in his videos on his channel and his backstory does point it towards AS. Does that mean every person with AS is dangerous? ofcourse not. He was just a unique person who picked out the wrong card in life in terms of mental health, did not get raised up properly, never get to talk about sexual stuff, became trapped in a vicious cycle that fueled his hate towards society and snapped.

Blaming this on autism is like saying neurotypical humans are very dangerous too when you look into the history of schoolshootings. With that idea in mind, anyone who got bullied and had a rough upbringing is a potentional hazard if you think about that, which is absolute BS. hundreds of thousands of children get to experience the same hell at school every day. Some with autism, some neurotypical.. if there was any link to be made, there would be ALOT more schoolshootings by now.

Ofcourse he did had a very toxic combination.. With autism you are more prone to routines and obsessive thinking. Woman and sex becoming your obession is a very dangerous thing already even without autism. In addition to that, he had clear symptoms of narcissism and sociopathy.. it kinda sucks to get multiple psychiatric disorders but i guess it can happen.

There are some reactions on youtube that made me laugh tho.. not because i think its funny what happened to him or the people that he killed, but the ignorance is just too damn high.

Stuff like "I would gladly suck his *** and get rid of his fustrations if it would've saved the people he killed"

I mean, c'mon, it is obvious that even in a relationship this type of guy would either stalk the **** out of his girlfriend or severely beatup / kill his girlfriend is she ever filed in for a divorce since he is the alpha and no one disobeys him.



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21 Oct 2014, 9:44 pm

MadHatterMatador wrote:
It seems like he has some consistencies with it. None of us know enough about him to say either way. There has to be some reason why a good looking kid was never able to get a date for 22 years. I don't know if NPD is enough to explain it. I think there must have been some sort of unusual social deficiencies, maybe Asperger's. But yeah, it doesn't mean everyone with Asperger's is going to go around killing people.


His father Peter kept challenging the diagnosis



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22 Oct 2014, 12:55 am

I guess we'll never know for sure but if I had a guess I would say he was schizophrenic based on his writings and age.