The surprising body part that could be causing Autism

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goldfish21
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28 Jun 2014, 4:25 pm

LupaLuna wrote:
Has anybody considered that maybe autism is causing the GI problems and not the other way around. Just like your heart rate, the GI track must me managed by subconscious functions in the brain. Think of it like the ECM on your car's engine.


Perhaps someone has considered it.. but I've proven the exact opposite to be true. That and every article that has come out over the months about studies on autism related to GI issues, bacterial parasites, probiotics, etc have all supported the theory that gut issues cause the neurological ones - especially since many of our neuroreceptors are produced in the gut, and if the gut isn't functioning properly, nor can the brain.


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KC73
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28 Jun 2014, 5:20 pm

NGC6205 wrote:
Perhaps it is because there has been so much pseudoscience related to diet over years, not just with Autism, that I have become a very strong skeptic of almost all non-mainstream theories. That is not to say I believe we have a perfect understanding of nutrition, physiological, and all GI-related pathologies, but just because science will never be 100% right and major parts of current theory were once against the establishment, does not mean in itself that any given non-mainstream theory is likely to ever become mainstream. That is also not to say I am against fully willing and knowledgable participants experimenting on themselves with non-harmful non-mainstream diets, especially if it appears to work. I just will never personally accept it until it is well established by rigorous experiments and well accepted by mainstream medical authoriies.

It actually isnt a non mainstream theory anymore though. Its not a popular theory with the drug companys or established professionals who lose money and status if people turn to nutrition instead of them, but its widely enough accepted for studies to be published and referenced in mainstream journals without the word "controversial" appearing anywhere anymore. And its not exactly "new knowledge", its more a reconnection to old knowledge that was thrown out with the bathwater when the new establishment of "medical science" took control of our health and wellbeing. You say you will never accept this information until its been "proven" by the establishment and is accepted as fact by them, and that would be all very well if the establishment you're looking up to were worthy of that trust and respect. Theyre really not in reality. And that isnt a personal opinion, its factual reality that the "science" they tell us to trust isnt even vaguely as robust as joe public believes. And the conflicts of interests are endemic. So its not a choice between listening to Quacks and Alternatives or listening to highly educated ethical medical people. Its a choice between listening to patients and ethic medical practitioners who are watching their patients improve, or listening to people who would lose out if they promoted diet as a symptom reduction treatment. It matters to keep that in mind.



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28 Jun 2014, 5:36 pm

thanks for posting this and your thread in your sig, thats so helpful and interesting.

about ten years ago now, when I did the atkins diet to loose weight, I was worried as I heard you feel awful and heard it was bad and unhealthy, only to find after a day I felt the best I had in my life! Gone were the crippleing stomach cramps, my eczema was retreating, felt awake and alive, briming full of energy, over the next few weeks I became yeast infection free for the first time I could remember and my cystic acne which I had had for 16 years left.

Every time I eat gluten and dairy I feel Ive smoked weed or taken heroin- so dopey and sluggish, my acne comes back and I have terrible guts and eczema.

I will definately add in some big doses of probiotics.

at meet ups Ive met quite a lot of aspies with similar allergy and bad guts in themselves and their families and loads say they avoid gluten or feel bad from it. Also they seem to be the ones who like me have lots of aspies in their family and so a strong genetic componant.



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28 Jun 2014, 6:00 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Shadi2 wrote:
As I tried to explain in my 1st and 2nd post, they are different forms of Autism. The one I called "real" autism, is caused by "circuits" in the brain that are actually "wired" differently, while the other types are not, they are not due to "circuits wired differently" (their brain is probably perfectly normal), but rather due to certain chemical reactions in the brain (and in other cases possibly due to the bacteria mentioned in this thread, which then possibly causes certain issues in the brain, or maybe the 2 are related, I have no idea). It is somewhat similar to a person who would take a certain drug and have a different behavior because of this drug, except in this case it is due to a reaction to certain components in food, which then cause symptoms similar to Autism (i.e. because it "weakens" - not sure which word to use here - certain circuits in the brain, while enhancing others).


I don't know whether these two types you describe exist or not. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

The article I linked to in the OP says that up to 90% of those on the autism spectrum have tummy troubles. That's 90% of people diagnosed with autism. IMO, the correlation seems extremely strong, and in my experience, the digestive issues cause the neurological, sensory, and behavioural ones.


Stress can also cause tummy troubles, its not necessarily caused by Autism directly, but could very well be due to other factors related to Autism, like stress due to certain impairments, and also to the reactions of others, including sometimes our own parents.

If your symptoms disappeared after changing your diet I am pretty convinced that your brain was perfectly normal to begin with, contrary to, for example, Temple Grandin and Daniel Tammet's brains. Their brains are "wired" differently than a "normal" brain, a diet won't change that.

On the other hand, after years of being autistic, even if due to certain chemical reactions and/or to a bacteria, even if the person didn't have an autistic brain to begin with, maybe the brain does become "wired differently" at some point, I have no idea whether this is possible or not. To illustrate my thought a little bit, for example if you were put on a drug that inhibited your hearing, maybe your vision would become better, or vice versa, and this would possibly be observable through a scan of your brain (for example your visual cortex might have developped more than usual, etc).

But either way, it is scientifically observable that some people were born with autistic brains, while others were born with normal brains (maybe there was differences that our science is not advanced enough to detect tho, who knows) and became autistic later on. And if this 2nd type(s) of Autism is indeed due to chemical reactions and/or bacteria, it might explain why some children can have "normal" brains and no symptoms of Autism, but become autistic later on (not excluding children who might have normal brain when they are born but still show signs of Autism early on).

What causes Autism while you are still in your mother's womb tho, is another story, there is probably different factors, including genetics.

Please note that I think that all this information about diets and bacterias is interesting, I simply think that it can help some people, but not all. There is probably no harm in trying the diet and see if it helps (I mean for people in general who would like to try).

P.S. Another tidbit of interesting information, from an article I have read:

Quote:
Signature Brain Activity

A study by the Yale School of Medicine used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to examine brain activity in children with autism, their unaffected siblings, and in normal children. The study found three important "neural signatures":
1.Reduced brain activity in both autistic children and their siblings
2.Reduced brain activity exclusively in children with autistic disorders
3.Increased activity found only in non-autistic siblings

According to the Science Daily press release, the increased brain activity in siblings of children with autism may be the brain compensating for autistic tendencies. The compensatory activity may have prevented autism from developing, in spite of the genetic predisposition for autism.


I think the increased brain activity in siblings of children with autism might also be due to compensating for their sibling's autism (i.e. because they sometimes are required to be more understanding of their autistic sibling than most children would be of their siblings, and sometimes they also participate and help their autistic sibling, they do activities with them that are designed especially to help the autistic child, etc)


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28 Jun 2014, 6:21 pm

Relevant research:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564498/

Quote:
The data just reviewed strongly suggests that further research on the relationships among the gut microbiome, the development and function of the nervous system, and behavior will be fruitful. The field is at a stage where more questions than answers are being generated. Difficulties with feeding and gastro-intestinal function are virtually ubiquitous in ASD, as has been reviewed here. That clinical observation, together with evidence just reviewed supporting associations between gut microbial population profiles and ASD, and the data from research on rodents demonstrating myriad ways in which the gut microbiome influences neurobehavioral development, combine to suggest that further research on the trajectory of microbiome development in children at risk for ASD will be fruitful. The possibility of specific interventions to alter microbiome development opens up the prospect of a range of novel therapeutic approaches such as probiotic, antibiotic or dietary manipulations that may offer hope to patients and families living with ASD.


There is a "which came first?" problem which this paper explores. The children with ASD had a markedly different microbiome from the children without ASD. But they also noted that the children with ASD had an eating pattern which could be affecting the microbiome. (Sticking only to certain foods, mainly). Did the different microbiome precede or follow the more rigid way of eating? They don't know yet.

There may be multiple paths towards what is now being called autism, as shadi notes. I wouldn't call one more real than the other though. After all, how many people posting here had a brain scan that showed "autisitic features" as part of their diagnostic workup? Such a scan is still more research than diagnostic tool. So it is entirely possible that many people who assume they have "ASD wiring" instead have an "ASD microbiome". There is just no way to know right now because the research is about brain scans and microbiomes but the actual diagnosis is about behavior and thinking process.

So I think this research and goldfish are onto something. But here's the catch: it isn't currently really understood what should and shouldn't be eaten in order to support a specific microbiome. Giving somebody a fecal transplant or probiotics won't do anything if the transplanted/eaten bacteria can't thrive in their new home. "Eating right" has no meaning here because there isn't a known protocol about how to eat to support specific microbiomes beyond then observation that processed food doesn't work terribly well and fermented foods do. But that's pretty vague. Goldfish ha experimented and found foods that support his best microbiome (probably, theoretically) but it isn't conclusive that this transfers to everybody else.

Dantac joked about getting an extrovert's social person's microbiome transplant. It's a joke that may have some kernel of truth. What if certain microbiomes support certain neurotransmitter use in the brain over others? I eat protein for the dopamine and weirdly that seems to work but this field is still in its' infancy.



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28 Jun 2014, 6:33 pm

KC73 wrote:
Diet has been shown to have a measurable effect on IQ, and diet also affects how well dopamine circuits are able to work. Its not magic, if you put the wrong type of fuel into any other vehicle it wont work as well as it could with the right fuel for it and our bodies are no different. Except we dont come with instructions about which fuel mix to use.


In other words, there's no scientific evidence as to which "diet" is correct for my body, or which foods will fix my IQ.

Quote:
Thats very dismissive both of your bodys fuel source and of the emotions that exist to tell your conscious mind that something is wrong and needs attention and change. Medications are a new thing in human evolution, they're almost all derived from plants so theyre not that removed from "diet", the "science" behind many of them is not nearly robust as we're led to believe, and they make a whole lot of money for a small group of people who have a vested interest in promoting them as superior to the plants themselves and the food we eat. Of course its easier to pop a pill and deny responsibility for issues on the grounds that theyre caused by things beyond our control, and I am nowhere near a saint myself at doing the right things to stay healthy when its "easier" not to, but thats not a factual argument against diet being something that affects autistic symptoms.


It's not dismissive as all.

Medication works. People promising "magic food" does not. And I didn't say diet didn't cause autistic symptoms, I said it didn't cause MY autistic symptoms.

I'll be happy to switch my Concerta, Risperidone, Zoloft, and Prozac when someone gives me a plant that works better.


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28 Jun 2014, 6:47 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

I've had several extended periods in the past where I exercised and ate right, yet my symptoms did not change.

It was only when I went on a completely medicinal diet & supplements AND made the extraordinary effort to treat myself via high volume herbal enemas as described in the thread in my sig that I improved dramatically. I've since been consuming more and more intestinal repairing supplements as well as daily probiotics. It's made a world of difference in my life.

Regular "eating right," cannot cleanse the digestive tract as it needs to be IF it's in the state mine was in.


Herbal enemas?

Thanks, but I'd rather be autistic.


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28 Jun 2014, 6:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Yes a neurological disorder that has nothing to do with the brain.... :?


Or maybe the long overdue recognition of the enteric nervous system as a second brain?
I for one have always tought with my gut first...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_n ... Complexity



KC73
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28 Jun 2014, 9:22 pm

xfilesgeek-

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In other words, there's no scientific evidence as to which "diet" is correct for my body, or which foods will fix my IQ.

Why are you using the word "diet" as if its a bad word rather than a description of the food and substances you put into your body every day? No, your exhalted "science" can't give you a menu plan that'll fix all your issues because there is no single one diet that works for every unique individual. It can evidence that the food we eat has an effect on our health, thats so beyond question its not arguable. It can also evidence the harm that pharmaceuticals cause, which are psuedo-innocently called "side effects" so that we dont worry about them too much. Medication often doesnt work. And didnt you previously say that your symptoms stay the same even though you eat well? If the symptoms are there what are the meds doing that makes you feel they "work?". Plants are not voodoo science, theyre what patentable pharmaceuticals come from or aim to mimic. There is nothing "magic" or even weird about achieving optimum health by feeding the body in an optimum for it way.



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28 Jun 2014, 10:27 pm

Janissy wrote:
So I think this research and goldfish are onto something. But here's the catch: it isn't currently really understood what should and shouldn't be eaten in order to support a specific microbiome. Giving somebody a fecal transplant or probiotics won't do anything if the transplanted/eaten bacteria can't thrive in their new home. "Eating right" has no meaning here because there isn't a known protocol about how to eat to support specific microbiomes beyond then observation that processed food doesn't work terribly well and fermented foods do. But that's pretty vague. Goldfish ha experimented and found foods that support his best microbiome (probably, theoretically) but it isn't conclusive that this transfers to everybody else.

Dantac joked about getting an extrovert's social person's microbiome transplant. It's a joke that may have some kernel of truth. What if certain microbiomes support certain neurotransmitter use in the brain over others? I eat protein for the dopamine and weirdly that seems to work but this field is still in its' infancy.


Except it is understood what to eat/do in order to clear out one's digestive tract, heal the intestinal lining, and rebalance the gut with healthy probiotic bacteria. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have been able to read all about it online & combine most of the info I read into the diet protocol I've followed.

And I agree that fecal transplants from incredibly well balanced people would likely be beneficial. Personally, if I were to ever connect with someone I thought was an ideal donor that was into the concept, I'd do it. I've already realized benefits from what I've done and the probiotics I've consumed so far, but in the name of continuous improvement I am definitely open minded about doing such a procedure in the future. It's no longer necessary as I'm functioning just fine in life, but I'd be open to it to see if it benefited me further. Obviously I'm not put off by gross science in the name of health & well being.


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28 Jun 2014, 10:30 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:

I've had several extended periods in the past where I exercised and ate right, yet my symptoms did not change.

It was only when I went on a completely medicinal diet & supplements AND made the extraordinary effort to treat myself via high volume herbal enemas as described in the thread in my sig that I improved dramatically. I've since been consuming more and more intestinal repairing supplements as well as daily probiotics. It's made a world of difference in my life.

Regular "eating right," cannot cleanse the digestive tract as it needs to be IF it's in the state mine was in.


Herbal enemas?

Thanks, but I'd rather be autistic.


Yep.

If it weren't for doing 4-6L herbal enemas many times over, I wouldn't have been able to flush out my large intestine as I have. It took repeating the process several times over before the majority of the parasites were.. evicted. Diet alone would not have caused them to release their grip from the intestinal walls and flush out. Putting medicine directly to the source did the trick.

And I'd do it all again rather than keep the autistic traits that severely hindered my life.


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28 Jun 2014, 10:31 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Janissy wrote:
So I think this research and goldfish are onto something. But here's the catch: it isn't currently really understood what should and shouldn't be eaten in order to support a specific microbiome. Giving somebody a fecal transplant or probiotics won't do anything if the transplanted/eaten bacteria can't thrive in their new home. "Eating right" has no meaning here because there isn't a known protocol about how to eat to support specific microbiomes beyond then observation that processed food doesn't work terribly well and fermented foods do. But that's pretty vague. Goldfish ha experimented and found foods that support his best microbiome (probably, theoretically) but it isn't conclusive that this transfers to everybody else.

Dantac joked about getting an extrovert's social person's microbiome transplant. It's a joke that may have some kernel of truth. What if certain microbiomes support certain neurotransmitter use in the brain over others? I eat protein for the dopamine and weirdly that seems to work but this field is still in its' infancy.


Except it is understood what to eat/do in order to clear out one's digestive tract, heal the intestinal lining, and rebalance the gut with healthy probiotic bacteria. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have been able to read all about it online & combine most of the info I read into the diet protocol I've followed.

And I agree that fecal transplants from incredibly well balanced people would likely be beneficial. Personally, if I were to ever connect with someone I thought was an ideal donor that was into the concept, I'd do it. I've already realized benefits from what I've done and the probiotics I've consumed so far, but in the name of continuous improvement I am definitely open minded about doing such a procedure in the future. It's no longer necessary as I'm functioning just fine in life, but I'd be open to it to see if it benefited me further. Obviously I'm not put off by gross science in the name of health & well being.


Oh LOrd, instead of being someone's "blood brother," you're going to be their "poop brother"! :D



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28 Jun 2014, 10:48 pm

KC73 wrote:
xfilesgeek-
Quote:
In other words, there's no scientific evidence as to which "diet" is correct for my body, or which foods will fix my IQ.

Why are you using the word "diet" as if its a bad word rather than a description of the food and substances you put into your body every day? No, your exhalted "science" can't give you a menu plan that'll fix all your issues because there is no single one diet that works for every unique individual. It can evidence that the food we eat has an effect on our health, thats so beyond question its not arguable. It can also evidence the harm that pharmaceuticals cause, which are psuedo-innocently called "side effects" so that we dont worry about them too much. Medication often doesnt work. And didnt you previously say that your symptoms stay the same even though you eat well? If the symptoms are there what are the meds doing that makes you feel they "work?". Plants are not voodoo science, theyre what patentable pharmaceuticals come from or aim to mimic. There is nothing "magic" or even weird about achieving optimum health by feeding the body in an optimum for it way.


....which is fine, except I'll wait until actual science can give me specific instructions as to which specific foods are definitely going to correct my IQ imbalance and stimming.

Right now, all I'm getting is that a special diet will fix my autism, and, if it doesn't, I'm obviously eating the wrong diet. In other words, it can never be disproved.


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NGC6205
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28 Jun 2014, 11:41 pm

Although, I will admit, my skepticism often does have a strong emotional component. In all honesty, the idea that ASD could be gastroneurological vs. primarily neurological is quite unsettling to me. I've become quite accepting with the idea of my brain being different, but feel like it would change everything for me if it were conclusively found to be caused entirely elsewhere in the body.



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28 Jun 2014, 11:46 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
....which is fine, except I'll wait until actual science can give me specific instructions as to which specific foods are definitely going to correct my IQ imbalance and stimming.

Right now, all I'm getting is that a special diet will fix my autism, and, if it doesn't, I'm obviously eating the wrong diet. In other words, it can never be disproved.


What I find better than "actual science," is actual experience.

You could try the diet I followed and either prove that it works for you, or prove that it doesn't.


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