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Lieutenant_Barclay
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13 Sep 2014, 11:26 am

I have had this idea developing in my mind for a while, and I want to see if any of you agree or disagree, or what your thoughts are.

I feel like our current society is growing more and more hostile towards and less and less accepting of people who can't conform to a certain ideal for behavior. I feel like part of this is because we are very socially competitive. I feel like more and more people are believing that social skills are the most important thing a person can have to get by and succeed in life, and that social prestige is the greatest achievement one can have. I think that this environment that has less and less tolerance and understanding of people who struggle to fit the behavioral mold or who are less well equipped than others for games of persuasion and impression management could be part of the reason why so many people with Asperger's characteristics feel the need to get diagnosed, myself included.

It seems that in my grandparents time, people were more focused on things like character, virtue, and practical survival. When my grandparents discuss someone from their time (say, a relative) who had Asperger's-like traits, they will say things like, "he was a little 'different'", and then move on. There is a certain amount of pity there, which I wouldn't want, but there is also a sense of accepting the person and a sense of responsibility to help someone who is struggling. Now, I feel like there is less acceptance, and there is pressure to take the right combination of pills so you can just keep running with the pack.

(About the last statement, I really have no problems with medication, especially for those who need it. I am more talking about family doctors who will prescribe psychiatric medication at the slightest mention of emotional discomfort or about family members who would rather tell you to go get on medicine instead of really listening to your struggles and trying to help.)



qFox
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13 Sep 2014, 11:46 am

This is not just American culture, this is western culture in general. We are in generation Facebook, if you do not have a bunch of narcissistic selfies or images of yourself at parties you are an outcast. It's all about social status and moving up the social ladder, some people will even completely ignore you if they sense you will 'degrade' their social status by being with them. It's gotten to the point where now some job openings now even have a mandatory 'Facebook' field where they will check your history and if you do not own a Facebook account or they suspect you are an outcast they will refuse you the job.

In history and in other cultures you'll find that hard work, determination and loyalty are much more respected values. Hence why I am seriously considering moving to a country or small place when I finish my university degree where narcissism isn't so widely glorified.



AspieUtah
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13 Sep 2014, 11:54 am

Lieutenant_Barclay wrote:
...I feel like our current society is growing more and more hostile towards and less and less accepting of people who can't conform to a certain ideal for behavior. I feel like part of this is because we are very socially competitive....

Yep. The wider problem is that the service industry is one of the few remaining growing industries in the United States, and requires improved social skills to succeed as far as one can advance by asking "would you like fries with that" or "would you like to get 10 percent off your purchase by applying for a Gap credit card today?" As such, the largest part of the economy ignores or forces compliance from anyone who isn't a social butterfly to adapt or quit. Add to that economic influence the effect of socio-political marketing that expects everyone to have a favorite professionanl-sports team and political party (with all the trappings of the branded T-shirt wardrobe, bumper stickers and fandom). Otherwise, what kinds of conversations would socializing offer? The compounded result is a society that is rewarded to loathe individualism and original thought. Differences must be beat out of people. Conform. Comply. Do your job.


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Lieutenant_Barclay
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13 Sep 2014, 12:19 pm

qFox wrote:
In history and in other cultures you'll find that hard work, determination and loyalty are much more respected values. Hence why I am seriously considering moving to a country or small place when I finish my university degree where narcissism isn't so widely glorified.


I hope to find such a place. I dream of finding such a place.

AspieUtah wrote:
Yep. The wider problem is that the service industry is one of the few remaining growing industries in the United States, and requires improved social skills to succeed as far as one can advance by asking "would you like fries with that" or "would you like to get 10 percent off your purchase by applying for a Gap credit card today?" As such, the largest part of the economy ignores or forces compliance from anyone who isn't a social butterfly to adapt or quit. Add to that economic influence the effect of socio-political marketing that expects everyone to have a favorite professionanl-sports team and political party (with all the trappings of the branded T-shirt wardrobe, bumper stickers and fandom). Otherwise, what kinds of conversations would socializing offer? The compounded result is a society that is rewarded to loathe individualism and original thought. Differences must be beat out of people. Conform. Comply. Do your job.


Man, that makes so much sense. I worked behind a cash register for a short while and was forced to sell discount membership programs, with managers holding my sales numbers over my head and threatening my job. I went home utterly exhausted every night (or afternoon, because they wanted everyone to work randomly assigned night or day shifts). If people were nice, and you could sell by just telling people what you are offering, it wouldn't have been so bad. But, yeah...



Lieutenant_Barclay
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13 Sep 2014, 12:22 pm

qFox wrote:
and if you do not own a Facebook account or they suspect you are an outcast they will refuse you the job.


I don't have a Facebook account. Facebook can be a scary place. It feels like walking down the hall of my high school.



olympiadis
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13 Sep 2014, 2:45 pm

Lieutenant_Barclay wrote:
I have had this idea developing in my mind for a while, and I want to see if any of you agree or disagree, or what your thoughts are.

I feel like our current society is growing more and more hostile towards and less and less accepting of people who can't conform to a certain ideal for behavior. I feel like part of this is because we are very socially competitive. I feel like more and more people are believing that social skills are the most important thing a person can have to get by and succeed in life, and that social prestige is the greatest achievement one can have. I think that this environment that has less and less tolerance and understanding of people who struggle to fit the behavioral mold or who are less well equipped than others for games of persuasion and impression management could be part of the reason why so many people with Asperger's characteristics feel the need to get diagnosed, myself included.

It seems that in my grandparents time, people were more focused on things like character, virtue, and practical survival. When my grandparents discuss someone from their time (say, a relative) who had Asperger's-like traits, they will say things like, "he was a little 'different'", and then move on. There is a certain amount of pity there, which I wouldn't want, but there is also a sense of accepting the person and a sense of responsibility to help someone who is struggling. Now, I feel like there is less acceptance, and there is pressure to take the right combination of pills so you can just keep running with the pack.

(About the last statement, I really have no problems with medication, especially for those who need it. I am more talking about family doctors who will prescribe psychiatric medication at the slightest mention of emotional discomfort or about family members who would rather tell you to go get on medicine instead of really listening to your struggles and trying to help.)


You feel this way because it is all true. So what are you going to do with your idea?

qFox wrote:
This is not just American culture, this is western culture in general. We are in generation Facebook, if you do not have a bunch of narcissistic selfies or images of yourself at parties you are an outcast. It's all about social status and moving up the social ladder, some people will even completely ignore you if they sense you will 'degrade' their social status by being with them. It's gotten to the point where now some job openings now even have a mandatory 'Facebook' field where they will check your history and if you do not own a Facebook account or they suspect you are an outcast they will refuse you the job.


All true.



olympiadis
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13 Sep 2014, 2:49 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Lieutenant_Barclay wrote:
...I feel like our current society is growing more and more hostile towards and less and less accepting of people who can't conform to a certain ideal for behavior. I feel like part of this is because we are very socially competitive....

Yep. The wider problem is that the service industry is one of the few remaining growing industries in the United States, and requires improved social skills to succeed as far as one can advance by asking "would you like fries with that" or "would you like to get 10 percent off your purchase by applying for a Gap credit card today?" As such, the largest part of the economy ignores or forces compliance from anyone who isn't a social butterfly to adapt or quit. Add to that economic influence the effect of socio-political marketing that expects everyone to have a favorite professionanl-sports team and political party (with all the trappings of the branded T-shirt wardrobe, bumper stickers and fandom). Otherwise, what kinds of conversations would socializing offer? The compounded result is a society that is rewarded to loathe individualism and original thought. Differences must be beat out of people. Conform. Comply. Do your job.



Yes, but it's not just that there is only a dominant service industry evolving to be more social. There are still two main areas that make the economy run, but the contrast between the two are becoming greater and greater as time goes on. The bell curve isn't bell shaped anymore. It is trying to become an inverted bell.



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13 Sep 2014, 2:59 pm

A lot of people are "wannabe-socialites" these days(but think they're real ones) partially cause they sit around texting their friends back-and-forth constantly among other things. And they often act stuck-up as a result of it.



Charloz
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13 Sep 2014, 3:07 pm

Society is eugenicist. If you are not ?normal?, you have no purpose, no value. Your life has no value. Your whole entire existence is but a nuisance to those who fall under the norm, those who can disappear in a crowd cheered at. Those who stand out in it, mowed down.

It?s happening all over the world, in the Western world, in the Western hemisphere but also in Asia, the Far East and several other nations. You have to conform. Whoever doesn?t bends, breaks. They will spot the defectives and bang on them until they give up, effectively weeding out all those ?defective genes? from society. They cannot stand otherness, uniqueness. You need to have talents, though, skills. But if you are not ordinary enough they don?t want to see your value. They don?t want to see your talent. All they want is to ridicule you so that they can feel better about their own selves.

People nowadays are small minded, intolerant and bigoted. They are very tribal and hive-minded. And if you do not follow the general rule you soon find yourself standing alone. There are fringe movements, there are outsiders, there are loners. But most of us end up conforming to some degree and disappear in the cracks of life, never standing out. They beat the life out of you without ever laying a finger on you. With their expectations, their rules and their requirements. With their silents, their lack of compassion and understanding. They kill you, one silence at a time.



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13 Sep 2014, 4:16 pm

qFox wrote:
This is not just American culture, this is western culture in general. We are in generation Facebook, if you do not have a bunch of narcissistic selfies or images of yourself at parties you are an outcast. It's all about social status and moving up the social ladder, some people will even completely ignore you if they sense you will 'degrade' their social status by being with them. It's gotten to the point where now some job openings now even have a mandatory 'Facebook' field where they will check your history and if you do not own a Facebook account or they suspect you are an outcast they will refuse you the job.

In history and in other cultures you'll find that hard work, determination and loyalty are much more respected values. Hence why I am seriously considering moving to a country or small place when I finish my university degree where narcissism isn't so widely glorified.

I think you are looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. Things were much the same before Facebook.

Solution: stop seeking the company of superficial losers, like those who think being around you would "degrade their social standing". I guarantee you that there are more like minded people out there than you think. Trying joining specialist societies at university, for example.



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13 Sep 2014, 5:30 pm

Lieutenant_Barclay wrote:
(About the last statement, I really have no problems with medication, especially for those who need it. I am more talking about family doctors who will prescribe psychiatric medication at the slightest mention of emotional discomfort or about family members who would rather tell you to go get on medicine instead of really listening to your struggles and trying to help.)


The scary thing about it is is that most of those medication are use for conformance purposes, rather then for helping with the person health. It's like the reasons that woman wear makeup. Some of these psychotic drugs are nothing more then just pharmaceutical makeup.



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13 Sep 2014, 7:20 pm

In my opinion, we're something of an evolutionary response to the societal perils of corporate monopolies built on branded communication and falsified individualism; the process of people defining themselves strictly by external factors.


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13 Sep 2014, 7:43 pm

In response to the original post....

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel that those people needing the social status of which you speak are terribly insecure, putting GREAT value on material things----just like it was, back in the day (still, really), when having the biggest house, or fastest car, or whatever seemed to "show" people you are cool. It's just a fad. If one focuses on material things, like Facebook, Twitter, etc., then they don't have to focus on themselves----God only knows what they'd find, if they did----Facebook is much "safer" than exploring their inner selves.

I also think, sometimes, that people who are so intolerant are afraid of facing their own shortcomings. For instance, if one tries to discuss their Depression, the person to whom they're speaking might think: "Oh, God, I have that too!" This way, if they don't discuss someone else's "stuff", they don't have to think about / examine their "stuff".

Try not to let it get you down----I remember how difficult it was, though, at your age. Like someone else said, there are more of "your kind" of people out there than you think. Also, and I realize this won't help much now, but....

you have "age" to look forward to----I don't much give a damn what someone thinks of ME----I'm too old and too tired, for games of this sort. (wink)

Keep your chin up!! !





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13 Sep 2014, 8:07 pm

Spot-on observations in this thread.

The effects of what I would describe as dysfunctional hyper-social ( = hyper-hierarchical) society are global.

You can observe them in all places that are linked into the global financial system, which forms the substrate of nearly all living human cultures today. The hyper-social paradigm is being pushed into the last corners of the planet under banners such as "bringing banking to the unbanked".

The behavioural effects are emergent features of the resulting human economic system. They can't be attributed to any individual or to any group of individuals. What is true however, is that these emergent features spread mainly via neurotypical brain wirings. The individual neurotypical transmitters of the system features are not even consciously aware of their behaviour, and they don't even see the system (the box) that they operate in.

To understand today's world, whenever you read/hear social in mainstream media, you can substitute with social status differential or power hierarchy to get to the implied semantics.



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13 Sep 2014, 8:45 pm

jbw wrote:
Spot-on observations in this thread.

The effects of what I would describe as dysfunctional hyper-social ( = hyper-hierarchical) society are global.

You can observe them in all places that are linked into the global financial system, which forms the substrate of nearly all living human cultures today. The hyper-social paradigm is being pushed into the last corners of the planet under banners such as "bringing banking to the unbanked".



What hasn't been contaminated yet? maybe North Korea and/or Iran ? Some Amazon tribes?


jbw wrote:
behavioural effects are emergent features of the resulting human economic system. They can't be attributed to any individual or to any group of individuals. What is true however, is that these emergent features spread mainly via neurotypical brain wirings. The individual neurotypical transmitters of the system features are not even consciously aware of their behaviour, and they don't even see the system (the box) that they operate in.


Agreed.
I believe it was you who said before that the NTs are the most efficient copying machines in our society, or something to that effect.
They don't just contract and spread the virus, they demand the virus and stand in line to get it. Now that is what you call efficient.



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14 Sep 2014, 5:34 am

I can't speak for the whole world but in the USA I think we are more intolerant of differences this is especially true as far as hiring people. 9/11, School and office shootings,the explosion of lawsuits and political correctness and the bad economy, the rise in the need for social media skills is a horrible combination if you want to work and elsewhere.


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