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grbiker
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12 Nov 2014, 12:38 pm

Thanks, androbot, for that succinct explanation of theory of mind. I have struggled to understand what is meant by theory of mind.

As I read your post, I could feel myself as I have been with other people that my sense of them as separate and unknowable is always in flux. Like I am just about to grasp it, then it slips away and I'm back to being confused and wondering why I don't get them and they don't get me. Frustration builds and then I get stressed, Repeat. I once was "shy" now I have social anxiety.



Last edited by grbiker on 12 Nov 2014, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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12 Nov 2014, 12:59 pm

I personally have not experienced that, but that is ridiculous....Plenty of people with autism have social anxiety, it can happen when you try to interact with people, have negative experiences and thus are anxious about interacting, doesn't get rid of the difficulties autism causes in interacting. Also though being 'just shy' and social anxiety are also not the same thing, Social Anxiety is its own disorder and it can be quite serious, being shy isn't really a disorder as far as I know...though shy people could certainly have it but its not a requirement.

Seems like lots of myths have been spread around in the incident you describe.


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12 Nov 2014, 1:06 pm

androbot01 wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
I like her, personally, but it doesn't occur to me that she had to get caught up in a wide range of emotions, for those roles.

For instance, I see all kinds of smileys, to the left of this field, as I type this. But, she's making pretty-plain faces, in these two pics -- a fish and a robot.

I think she has natural beauty and is low key, which I appreciate. I don't mean to express any disrespect.


I think that's fair. Her roles don't usually have a lot of dialogue either. Her voice is very soft and scratchy.


Yeah the thing with movies is I doubt one has to have great social skills or exceptional theory of mind to act in them....they need all kinds of different roles for movies and its very possible autistic people are better for some roles, especially if the character has autistic traits. Or maybe they need a quiet person that doesn't say much which many autistic people can do quite well. There are probably some roles someone with autism would have a hard time playing convincingly, but probably depends on the individual.

Also there is a musician called Shagrath who is the lead singer of Dimmu Borgir one of my favorite bands...but he also is in other bands and plays instruments that is just his main project. Anyways on stage he is rather assertive and comes off as quite outgoing, but I have seen him in interviews and he's actually a pretty quiet, mellow sort of person and even seemed kind of nervous and I think in one he mentioned how he has sort of a different persona on stage....his stage persona is Shagrath, but he himself is not shagrath if that makes sense cannot remember his real name though. I don't know that he's autistic, but kinda doubting he's neurotypical.


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friedmacguffins
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12 Nov 2014, 1:22 pm

There used to be a joke about someone playing the tree in the school play, but I believe I'm attracted to her introversion.

I've read alot of people saying it's helpful to raise public awareness, but I might feel apprehensive, about discussing this in front of paparazzi types.



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12 Nov 2014, 1:26 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I think celebrities tend to jump on all kinds of bandwagons to get media attention. They also have loads of $, which gives them access to loads of doctors, some of whom are unscrupulous and will agree with them about almost anything. I'm not saying some (or even any) of these celebrities don't really have ASD, I'm just giving some reasons why people doubt them.

BTW, I rarely make eye contact when speaking with someone, and I probably look a lot like Daryl Hannah does in that interview. Except that she smiles more. I tend to frown in concentration, which gives the impression that I hate the person with whom I'm speaking. Fun times.


Not so sure, I get the impression a lot of celebrities would like less attention...or rather they want their acting, singing or whatever to get attention but they'd much rather less attention in general like I doubt they enjoy having the media constantly stalking them and trying to spy on them in their personal life to put out some drama filled story about what is going on in their life. Like Amanda Bynes, I liked that show she had 'The Amanda Show' I think and think I saw her in some movie but I thought she was funny and liked her acting but then I hear a bunch of crap about her on the media because of stuff that's not even anyone's business. Then there is Britney spears I didn't really like most of her music though there's a couple songs that are tolerable, but she's still a human being and I thought it was disgusting how the media treated her when things started going a bit downhill for her.

So I guess my point is its probably not as glamorous and stress free as people think.....I mean lots of money would be nice, but imagine dealing with all the negative crap the media would say about you if you where famous regardless of if its even true. I mean part of the reason Syd Barret of Pink Floyd went crazy was because of harsh media criticism when he was just trying to create art, he was sensitive enough to really take it to heart and that is really sad.


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12 Nov 2014, 1:30 pm

androbot01 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It's absurd to think that autistic people, inherently, lack "theory of mind."

This basically means being aware of yourself , how you react to situations, how other people react to situations, and how people react to what you do.


Well, I'll have to go and find some sources but my understanding is that TOM refers to being aware of the other as a separate and unknowable quantity. People who lack this tend to think only in terms of their own experience. Which leads to confusion when others act unexpectedly.
I think this is a characteristic of autism. Though its absence (or presence) wouldn't preclude autism.


Hence why it can't really be said to have autism is to lack that...I am well aware others are seperate beings. Also though I think sometimes people confuse the fact that autistic people can experience the world differently, thus are going to have different experiences to speak from that people without autism won't understand....so they mistake the autistic person describing things how they have experienced as not knowing other people would have different experiences, while in their head missing that the autistic person had a different experience.

If that makes sense.


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12 Nov 2014, 1:49 pm

linatet wrote:
I'm guilty of the "this is not autism thing". Just read my signature :lol: but to be fair, I never impose it on anyone. I just ask people to be careful, many times they jump to conclusions way too quickly and without proper evidence and/or research.
Two common phenomenons. It's so common to read people diagnosing others like: "celebrity x has y, because they were socially awkward when younger and knows everything about b" I mean... Human beings are so diverse and our experience is so rich. We have to be aware of all kinds of people there are, and that many of us have things in common.
Second one- people diagnosing themselves, not to find answers or support, but to be named as different. Human beings tend to be eager to think they are special (another interesting discussion is if this is related to the society we live in or is somehow "intrinsec"), but not in a good way like: "everyone is unique and can contribute to the community", more like "look at how speeeecial I am, you normal human beings". Very trending "disorders" are like asperges, bipolar, sociopath. Come on..


Have you ever met anyone that you know for a fact has diagnosed them-self just to be named as different? And are you entirely sure you did the proper research and acquired the proper evidence to make the claim that such people exist? Let alone that they'd exist in any significant amount of numbers? Of course I am not saying none of these people exist, but how can you know for certain if you've ran into one? What if they lie about having felt different their whole life and wondering why and never admit its a lie? Human beings eager to see themselves as special is not the same thing as being eager to be different.

That said I say everyone is unique and its good to contribute to the community, however people can do the opposite of contribute and do so there is that. Sometimes people who don't contribute to the community accuse other people of not contributing. But yeah I know in my case of self diagnoses till I got it official it was more wondering what was so inherently different about me that people noticed and disliked me for. I even had accusations of 'trying to hard' or like people would think I was wearing black to 'look Goth' when I just liked the color and had no idea what Goth even was, then I come to find out most people who call people that don't know what it is either when I actually looked it up. Or apparently when I had long hair and it got in my eyes and I still liked dark colors I was trying to be 'emo' lol. Then I got into metal and started calling myself a metalhead because I was and am still truly passionate about it...Guess the point is there was never a 'trying to be different just to be special mindset in my head. Yet plenty of people have accused me of it.....I imagine there are people you've thought where claiming autism just to be special and different who really were not.


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12 Nov 2014, 1:57 pm

I've had to break down advanced maths for remedial students or explain complicated assemblies in the simplest possible terms.

Ask an NT person what they intend to do, how they intend to accomplish it, and most will not appear capable of independent reasoning.

There would have been no right or wrong answer. Like picking a point on a map and planning a route. To me, theory of mind is saying 'I am here.' This is where I came from. This is where I am going.

Very few people really know what they want, in five words or less, as the saying goes.

To use a fictional example, from "Fight Club," Tyler Durden makes them express a life goal, or reason to live, under pressure. I am not advocating the use of coercive force. Noone particularly has to share their hopes and dreams with me. But, most people would have no sense of purpose, if it came down to it.



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12 Nov 2014, 2:03 pm

fwiw, I like alot of the same stuff. If that's a look, and I'm expressing myself intentionally, so be it. What's wrong with trying.



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12 Nov 2014, 2:18 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
fwiw, I like alot of the same stuff. If that's a look, and I'm expressing myself intentionally, so be it. What's wrong with trying.


I guess there is nothing wrong with trying in general, but I get the impression they more mean I am trying too hard to be something I am not or something. Also though if one has to try to enjoy metal then they probably shouldn't call them-self a metalhead, If one doesn't like goth rock than they shouldn't call themselves a goth, unless they mean it in the other sense but I think it would be hard to represent gothic architecture through clothing for instance. Aside from that I find there is a crap load of over-lap in styles associated with certain sub-cultures....like the metalhead and punk vest the only difference is the punk vest has punk patches and the metal vest has metal patches.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 12 Nov 2014, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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12 Nov 2014, 2:52 pm

I don't think it's true that NT's are not capable of "advanced reasoning."



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12 Nov 2014, 4:18 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
fwiw, I like alot of the same stuff. If that's a look, and I'm expressing myself intentionally, so be it. What's wrong with trying.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I guess there is nothing wrong with trying in general, but I get the impression they more mean I am trying too hard to be something I am not or something. Also though if one has to try to enjoy metal then they probably shouldn't call them-self a metalhead, If one doesn't like goth rock than they shouldn't call themselves a goth, unless they mean it in the other sense but I think it would be hard to represent gothic architecture through clothing for instance. Aside from that I find there is a crap load of over-lap in styles associated with certain sub-cultures....like the metalhead and punk vest the only difference is the punk vest has punk patches and the metal vest has metal patches.

Are you doing it for personal enjoyment, or to win approval?

This is not a loaded question.

If you want to be appreciated for that, there are people who will like it, somewhere.

I personally agree that there's overlap. :thumleft:



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12 Nov 2014, 4:23 pm

Quote:
I don't think it's true that NT's are not capable of "advanced reasoning."

Are we talking about:
logistical problem
knowing your tastes and boundaries



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12 Nov 2014, 4:31 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It's absurd to think that autistic people, inherently, lack "theory of mind."

This basically means being aware of yourself , how you react to situations, how other people react to situations, and how people react to what you do.


Well, I'll have to go and find some sources but my understanding is that TOM refers to being aware of the other as a separate and unknowable quantity. People who lack this tend to think only in terms of their own experience. Which leads to confusion when others act unexpectedly.
I think this is a characteristic of autism. Though its absence (or presence) wouldn't preclude autism.


Hence why it can't really be said to have autism is to lack that...I am well aware others are seperate beings. Also though I think sometimes people confuse the fact that autistic people can experience the world differently, thus are going to have different experiences to speak from that people without autism won't understand....so they mistake the autistic person describing things how they have experienced as not knowing other people would have different experiences, while in their head missing that the autistic person had a different experience.

If that makes sense.


Do I understand correctly that you are saying that neurotypicals are as unaware of us as we are said to be of them?



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12 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
fwiw, I like alot of the same stuff. If that's a look, and I'm expressing myself intentionally, so be it. What's wrong with trying.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I guess there is nothing wrong with trying in general, but I get the impression they more mean I am trying too hard to be something I am not or something. Also though if one has to try to enjoy metal then they probably shouldn't call them-self a metalhead, If one doesn't like goth rock than they shouldn't call themselves a goth, unless they mean it in the other sense but I think it would be hard to represent gothic architecture through clothing for instance. Aside from that I find there is a crap load of over-lap in styles associated with certain sub-cultures....like the metalhead and punk vest the only difference is the punk vest has punk patches and the metal vest has metal patches.

Are you doing it for personal enjoyment, or to win approval?

This is not a loaded question.

If you want to be appreciated for that, there are people who will like it, somewhere.

I personally agree that there's overlap. :thumleft:


Personal enjoyment....also if I wear my metal vest or a metal t shirt its to show support of the music/bands. Also if I run into someone who likes a band on my shirt or whatever it makes for something to talk about. Of course I do not only listen to metal...I love psychdelic stuff to, and rock in general, so its not always a metal shirt. It is rather weird I like metal so much I'm a metalhead, but I like psychedelic rock just as much but don't know if there is a specific psychedelic rock sub-culture.


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