Exposing Neurodiversity: Show Me the Proof

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ylevental
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22 Apr 2015, 11:06 am

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/23 ... n=5b49f1fe (Not for donations, for a preview)

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” – F. Scott Fitzgerald

For many years, I was a major neurodiversity advocate. I believed the old myths that Albert Einstein and Bill Gates were very similar to me, and that I would become one of them in the future. This was because I never got along well with people and wanted badly to make up for my social deficiencies. I believed this with no scientific evidence.

However, as my life changed, it seemed that I was actually lacking many characteristics that they had. Contrary to the popular belief that they failed school, they actually did very well in school, but took alternative routes of their own willingness. Additionally, Einstein had a strong work ethic and attention span up to his death, once saying, “Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.” Bill Gates was very excellent in marketing Microsoft to the masses. Eventually, my own life fell downwards to the point where I decided to search for treatment.

WrongPlanet and Autism Speaks are the two biggest sites for people and their loved ones on the spectrum. WrongPlanet has traditionally supported neurodiversity, yet many members have become discontent with only a small elite repeatedly featured on the front page, so site traffic is rapidly dropping. Autism Speaks may have some problems with portrayal of autistics, but many families that donate to them have profoundly impaired children that cannot take care of themselves. Their traffic shows no decline.

Some people that will be discussed: Pro-Neurodiversity advocates Alex Plank, John Robison, and Temple Grandin, and Anti-Neurodiversity advocates Jonathan Mitchell and Manuel Casanova. Much of the content will be taken from Mitchell's blog, Autism's Gadfly. Their varied life experiences will be compared and contrasted.



Sweetleaf
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22 Apr 2015, 11:13 am

I am a bit confused neurodiversity just acknowledges that different neurologies exist, being anti-neurodiversity doesn't really make sense....I mean what is your goal to make everyone have the same neurology? and you are opposed to the existence of varying neurologies. It doesn't suggest having an alternate neurology to neurotypical automatically would make someone a genius of any kind. All supporting neurodiversity means is you support the idea people of all different neurologies should be accepted for who they are...rather than trying to change the neurology or make them look normal on the outside via behavioral training...it is not opposed to treatment for unpleasant symptoms people want treatment for, or accommodations people may need.

And just fyi I am not almost perfectly functional, acting like autism is some wonderful thing without any downsides whatsoever....and I still have no problem with neurodiversity. IDK it looks like maybe you should go back and research and figure out what exactly it is you have a problem with....seems like you more have a problem with the claim autism=genius but that doesn't really have anything to do with neurodiversity.


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ylevental
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22 Apr 2015, 11:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am a bit confused neurodiversity just acknowledges that different neurologies exist, being anti-neurodiversity doesn't really make sense....I mean what is your goal to make everyone have the same neurology? and you are opposed to the existence of varying neurologies. It doesn't suggest having an alternate neurology to neurotypical automatically would make someone a genius of any kind. All supporting neurodiversity means is you support the idea people of all different neurologies should be accepted for who they are...rather than trying to change the neurology or make them look normal on the outside via behavioral training...it is not opposed to treatment for unpleasant symptoms people want treatment for, or accommodations people may need.

And just fyi I am not almost perfectly functional, acting like autism is some wonderful thing without any downsides whatsoever....and I still have no problem with neurodiversity. IDK it looks like maybe you should go back and research and figure out what exactly it is you have a problem with....seems like you more have a problem with the claim autism=genius but that doesn't really have anything to do with neurodiversity.


You seem to be reasonable. I guess that that's what it technically means but people tend to take the "different not disabled" idea to unusual and dangerous extremes with no proof. So I'm focusing more on the looser definition. I believe in differences, but people would expect me to do more than I was capable because I am "gifted" (but lazy), even before I found out about asperger's.

>seems like you more have a problem with the claim autism=genius but that doesn't really have anything to do with neurodiversity.

That's what I probably meant, which could be harmful propaganda too. Being on the spectrum, I sometimes don't word things properly. But I will take that into account.



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22 Apr 2015, 11:56 am

I have had similar frustration, with people thinking because I am intelligent I can somehow just compensate for everything else. I do also disagree with the notion that its simply a 'difference' there are a lot of aspects of it which can be disabling...of course the current society doesn't make it any easier, chances are with better support and less ostracism and stigma we might function better but I imagine there would still be a lot of difficulties. Studies show a positive social environment or positive environment in general(not everyone cares about having people in that environment) can reduce severity of most mental/neurological conditions...but it does not cure them, just allows people with them to function better because they don't have the added stress of being in a negative environment.


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The_Walrus
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22 Apr 2015, 12:29 pm

I'm also quite irritated by the constant frivolous autism diagnoses of celebrities.

However, I don't think that's the central tenet of neurodiversity. Does Gates' neurotypes seriously impact whetherr I, as an autistic person, should be accepted for what I am?



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22 Apr 2015, 1:07 pm

While I'm personally happy who I am as an aspie (regardless of your opinion), I have disaffiliated from the neurodiversity movement since becoming dissentient towards identity politics, social justice warriorism (SJW) and collectivist ideologies that perpetuate the deplorable evils of group-think which so many conformist "freethinkers" are so propensified towards. I've postulated for about two years that some of them are just too reluctant to acknowledge that they are aspergian supremacists who superciliously proclaim that their neurotypes are definitively superior (cognitively and intellectually) to neurotypicals and non-autistic neurodivergents (twice exceptionals, dyslexics, synesthetes) and I would equivocate this overly grandiose and irrationalized herd mentality to the objectives of second/third wave feminists. They further equate pro-cure autistics such as Jonathan Mitchell (as you have mentioned) to groups such as neo-nazis, ISIS, neo-confederates and the Klu Klux Klan. They often disparage scientifically reputable interventions such as ABA which unlike Facilitated Communication (other than the sporadic nonverbal cases like Amelia Baggs and Amy Sequenzia) can significantly enhance their lifetime prognosis if it's methodological process is administered properly.They also cite an unpropounded hypothesis that the long term utilization of ABA can result in the manifestation of PTSD and depersonalized states based on explicit anecdotes.

I've also noticed that some of them express haughty callousness to the individual rights (negative liberty) of parents who would try any intervention (whether it's ABA or alternative treatments) to cure or at least ameliorate their child's condition, which can be unmitigated by a framework of symptomatologies such as epilepsy, psychotic disorders, food intolerances, and gastrointestinal disorders which some deliberately discard as extraneous to their ASD. The notion that most aspergians and high functioning autists don't want to be curred should be approached with independent skepticism (not like the conformist "freethinkers") and they have no right shove their beliefs towards those who desire their own freedom of choice in terms of treatment. Unfortunately many ND's dismiss them as a traitors to the autistic community or even shills for the anti-vaccine movement or conspiracy theorists like John Best Junior (he views the movement as apologetics for the multinational pharmaceutical industry). There is exponential evidence that some within the neurodiversity movement are attempting to encompass serious psychological disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, schizoaffective psychosis, intermittent explosive disorder, selective mutism, dysnomia, OCD, depression and medical disorders like epilepsy, tourette's syndrome, sensory integrative dysfunction, dementia, strokes and even circadian rhythm sleep disorders into the neologism as non-pathologized "neurominorities." Social Justice warriors should not redefine conditions like this in order to extenuate them as hedonistic alternative lifestyles.


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22 Apr 2015, 1:43 pm

I'm confused. What is the OP trying here? To me it sounds like the OP assumed he was going to be a genius because of his neurology and then rested upon that assumption without putting work into himself. When that failed, he attacks the idea of neurodiversity because of the originally flawed premise of projecting diagnoses onto celebrities...?

The_Walrus wrote:
Does Gates' neurotypes seriously impact whetherr I, as an autistic person, should be accepted for what I am?


Exactly! That's the core tenet of neurodiversity, which is being glossed over in this examination. Acknowledgement of and acceptance for differing neurologies. That's all.

My suggestion for the OP would be to stop projecting his difficulties outward and focus on the therapy he mentions he is searching for.


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ylevental
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22 Apr 2015, 1:54 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I'm also quite irritated by the constant frivolous autism diagnoses of celebrities.

However, I don't think that's the central tenet of neurodiversity. Does Gates' neurotypes seriously impact whetherr I, as an autistic person, should be accepted for what I am?


Good reply. I guess part of the problem is my family is in STEM and they basically pushed me to follow them and used my special interests as an excuse. But at least in my case, I don't even have the skills to hold down a good job or any self-control or willpower. But this is a dangerous stereotype that should be destroyed that's too widespread. No stereotype is a good stereotype.

Again, the title is probably too extreme, but some Autistics definitely need help.



Last edited by ylevental on 22 Apr 2015, 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ylevental
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22 Apr 2015, 1:56 pm

TheRedPedant93 wrote:
While I'm personally happy who I am as an aspie (regardless of your opinion), I have disaffiliated from the neurodiversity movement since becoming dissentient towards identity politics, social justice warriorism (SJW) and collectivist ideologies that perpetuate the deplorable evils of group-think which so many conformist "freethinkers" are so propensified towards. I've postulated for about two years that some of them are just too reluctant to acknowledge that they are aspergian supremacists who superciliously proclaim that their neurotypes are definitively superior (cognitively and intellectually) to neurotypicals and non-autistic neurodivergents (twice exceptionals, dyslexics, synesthetes) and I would equivocate this overly grandiose and irrationalized herd mentality to the objectives of second/third wave feminists. They further equate pro-cure autistics such as Jonathan Mitchell (as you have mentioned) to groups such as neo-nazis, ISIS, neo-confederates and the Klu Klux Klan. They often disparage scientifically reputable interventions such as ABA which unlike Facilitated Communication (other than the sporadic nonverbal cases like Amelia Baggs and Amy Sequenzia) can significantly enhance their lifetime prognosis if it's methodological process is administered properly.They also cite an unpropounded hypothesis that the long term utilization of ABA can result in the manifestation of PTSD and depersonalized states based on explicit anecdotes.

I've also noticed that some of them express haughty callousness to the individual rights (negative liberty) of parents who would try any intervention (whether it's ABA or alternative treatments) to cure or at least ameliorate their child's condition, which can be unmitigated by a framework of symptomatologies such as epilepsy, psychotic disorders, food intolerances, and gastrointestinal disorders which some deliberately discard as extraneous to their ASD. The notion that most aspergians and high functioning autists don't want to be curred should be approached with independent skepticism (not like the conformist "freethinkers") and they have no right shove their beliefs towards those who desire their own freedom of choice in terms of treatment. Unfortunately many ND's dismiss them as a traitors to the autistic community or even shills for the anti-vaccine movement or conspiracy theorists like John Best Junior (he views the movement as apologetics for the multinational pharmaceutical industry). There is exponential evidence that some within the neurodiversity movement are attempting to encompass serious psychological disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, schizoaffective psychosis, intermittent explosive disorder, selective mutism, dysnomia, OCD, depression and medical disorders like epilepsy, tourette's syndrome, sensory integrative dysfunction, dementia, strokes and even circadian rhythm sleep disorders into the neologism as non-pathologized "neurominorities." Social Justice warriors should not redefine conditions like this in order to extenuate them as hedonistic alternative lifestyles.


What annoys me about SJWs the most is that "differences are good" but only if they are beneficial, and life doesn't always work that way.



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22 Apr 2015, 2:03 pm

Are you really only eleven?



ylevental
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22 Apr 2015, 2:18 pm

Girlwithaspergers wrote:
Are you really only eleven?


Aack... I'm actually 22, I don't know why it says I'm 11.

And I just want to add, I've faced no hostility here so far.



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22 Apr 2015, 2:35 pm

It would be nice if nuerodiversity was acknowledged enough outside of wrong planet and some blogs that researchers would actually scientifically poll autistics to see how we feel about ABA and curing Autism. The complete lack of understanding and misperception of Autism in the mainstream and the dominance of one Autism Advocacy group and it's views is exactly why the neurodiversity movement is needed. Do I like everything the nuerodiverity movement espouses? Of course not but fortunately or unfortunately it's the one we got. Sans scientific polling I can only go by 2 years of reading thousands of posts, blogs, and youtube comments and most neurodiversity people are not against treatments. Not liking ABA does not make one anti treatment.

In every movement you have your fanatics and ass-holes. In ours we have our supremacists. In many and from what I see including ours the A-holes and fanatics are the minority. In nearly all cases opponents of said movement will try and define the movement by it's fanatics and A-holes with varying degrees of success. In our case it seems opponents of neurodiversity have been so successful in defining us a lot of us define us in the ways opponents want to supremacist, trendy, excuse maker etc etc.

I did post a scientific study in another thread showing suicide ideation rates among Adults diagnosed with Aspergers is 10 times the general population. This is evidence that instead of feeling so great about ourselves, the opposite is true. I fail at being normal is the overwhelming complaint. You will see thread after thread with similar sentiment here. IMHO the overzealous when it does occur is an overreaction to discovering why one is different, or that is is ok to be not normal. So Bill Gates, Devo are nerds, weird and succeeded. That does not make them Autistic or make me or 99% of us anything like them. It means normal is not always right or always the right thing to look up to. And that is what makes neurodiversity a necessary concept. Now more then ever.

As for Jonathan Mitchell he should report all threats to the authorities.


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HDLMatchette
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09 Nov 2019, 8:44 pm

I really think you need to read something from a mother of an autistic with high support needs: http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2018 ... esand.html



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09 Nov 2019, 11:22 pm

Thank you, HDLMachette. I really did enjoy reading that thoughtful article.


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HDLMatchette
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10 Nov 2019, 2:01 pm

Welcome. I hope neurodiversity skeptics can read this too.