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KimJ
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29 Mar 2007, 8:37 pm

Hazelwudi, I clarified on page 2 what I mean by prey perspective. The hyperattentativeness to detail, defense mechanisms and the fear/anxiety that overwhelms autistics.
The latter description (environmentally acquired. . .) is certainly a factor in socialization but a separate discussion, it's a consequence of being born already different.
Rhino, you're still measuring your skills and style against NT style. Anyone notice how little real conflict goes on here, considering there are 10,000 members? Smaller boards see a lot more conflict and real, serious turf wars because of NT conversation rules. People seem to say what they mean and there aren't too many war of words, or bullying going on.

I have resorted to hand raising in group discussions because I don't like NT "give and take". I don't time it right either so I just raise my hand or finger. Nerdy and oldfashioned but it works.



nutbag
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29 Mar 2007, 9:46 pm

If I may make an analogy here: When I am with people (plural) I seem to have no autopilot. So many minor and non-logical interactions (not illogical, but stuff outside of logic) are happening that I must handle consciously. While most people have this "autopilot" of social interactaction, I do not. Therefore I must "hand fly the aircraft" and my cockpit workload is high.

When I am done with social interaction my conscious mind is worn out from effort. I did not get the joy of interaction because I was too hard at work.

I think a set of instinctual bases are lacking in me. This has made learning these behaviours more difficult - nothing built in to attach skills to! And my learning was conscious, I lacked automatic emulation. And now I must work to apply all I have learned consciously.

Nothing is automatic - because the built in automatic programs are not in me.


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Hazelwudi
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29 Mar 2007, 9:47 pm

KimJ wrote:
Hazelwudi, I clarified on page 2 what I mean by prey perspective. The hyperattentativeness to detail, defense mechanisms and the fear/anxiety that overwhelms autistics.


I know, and barring the attentiveness to details, I lack them. When you stop allowing other people's hangups to be made your problem, you stop using defense mechanisms in socialization. You also stop being afraid, because you honestly cease to give a damn what people think of you. If they like me, fine. If they don't, f**k 'em. I wasn't put on earth to constantly pat hands and reassure people as they whine over nothing and act like morons.



Rjaye
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30 Mar 2007, 12:58 am

nutbag wrote:
If I may make an analogy here: When I am with people (plural) I seem to have no autopilot. So many minor and non-logical interactions (not illogical, but stuff outside of logic) are happening that I must handle consciously. While most people have this "autopilot" of social interactaction, I do not. Therefore I must "hand fly the aircraft" and my cockpit workload is high.

When I am done with social interaction my conscious mind is worn out from effort. I did not get the joy of interaction because I was too hard at work.

I think a set of instinctual bases are lacking in me. This has made learning these behaviours more difficult - nothing built in to attach skills to! And my learning was conscious, I lacked automatic emulation. And now I must work to apply all I have learned consciously.

Nothing is automatic - because the built in automatic programs are not in me.


This describes what I do in social situations completely. I tried to explain this to my therapist, and he jumped to an experience in a blue collar tavern I had and how I was comfortable there. I reminded him he wasn't there, and as I had been raised in the tavern business, couldn't care less about these people in the bar thought as they are idiots generally, and focussed on my damn pulltabs. I wasn't trying to socialize with these people. I was there to get drunk. And gamble. I wasn't socializing.

But in a social situation--where I need to interact--it takes my entire focus and energy. When I worked, I was useless in the off time, as I was rejevenating. I can't understand how people with families, and volunteer time, etc., can do it and work. I know they do it, but there's part of me that's amazed. They are like energizer bunnies who must be mad.

Metta, Rjaye



kingjim
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30 Mar 2007, 4:28 am

KimJ wrote:
For the second time in World History, I agree with SteveK. And I was refering to a sort of mind reading. That is, Steve doesn't smile and ask Mary about her day. Mary tells everyone that Steve is unfriendly and doesn't care about her. Simplistic example but pretty much the course of how daily interactions get interpreted. The "majority" "knows" Steve would smile and initiate polite chit chat if he cared, he must not then. Except that the "majority" has no idea that Steve can't see Mary really well because of the loud plane overhead and he doesn't know why Mary is trying to look at his eyes. He may be worried that he forgot to brush his teeth too.
Our ideas of "what is nice?" are different too. While NTs may enjoy smiling and being smiled at, autistics may be confused by it. Autistics may think it's more pleasant to keep a straight face to keep from confusing the next person and expect the same done for them.
So, it's not a matter of not wanting to be nice or helpful, we just have different ideas of what nice or helpful means.

I'm also a purist when it comes to altruism. You do nice things for another, not for good karma. I understand how reciprocal altruism works and I believe that working that into a social group is probably how things get done. But it's very rare do I gift someone so that I get something in return. I usually do it because I think they'll feel good. It's a literal way of looking at gift-giving.


You sound EXACTLTY LIKE a friend of mine.. you could be that person..if not, you are in arizona right? so please say hi. I need to meet you.



nutbag
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30 Mar 2007, 12:21 pm

Great posts, folks. Let's keep it going. I think we are on to something here. Thanks to all who have added to this thread.


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30 Mar 2007, 12:42 pm

I have noticed these two things in my life as well.

I enjoy analysing things. It's what I do everyday to mundane objects and scientific thoughts and theorys. In fact you can say that I do it so much that I no longer have to think about what I'm anylyzing for the answer because I have used it so much. Almost "instinctual"? but those are for things like physics and studying art and the make up of objects.

But when it comes to social and human behaiver. I am bumbfounded that people can understand a person like it's second nature in a split second while for me it would take days or weeks of analysing someone to see why so and so did this or that. And then end up with the wrong answer.... :? And I would never understand why. I have come to either conclusion that "I over analyse" to "I'm just not equipt with the tools needed to understand the reason for social behaiver and what not."


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30 Mar 2007, 12:50 pm

Erilyn wrote:
Simple social interaction probably requires the highest amount of information processing the human brain ever performs in any given situation, which is why I think problems with social interaction is the one symptom that is almost universal across the ASD spectrum. And it could also be a reasonable explanation as to why our symptoms are so varied, since not everyone experiences sensitivities (or lack thereof) in the exact same areas.

I think the problem is not that we don’t WANT interaction, we either don’t know how to initiate it, how to deal with it, or how to recognize it in the first place because are brains aren’t telling us what to look for.


Social interaction probably involves the most primitive parts of the brain, perhaps the amygdala, which gives the NT a jolt of "happy" when they see another face and more "happy" when they converse. So they pay a lot of attention. We don't that get the same chemical jolt to pay attention. I have raised 2 kids on the spectrum and they don't pay attention in the way NT kids do.

You can learn to pay attention. I really started in the 9th grade and made a resolution to watch others in social interactions and have remained a student since that time. The teenage years are the worst since you are overcome with fear, but I as I have aged, I'm no longer afraid. Most of conversation is just banal pleasantries and I can deal with that. I'm not really interested in listening to the details of someone's divorce or surgery, but I can make the expected remarks and get past that. Now, I'm just rather bored.


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30 Mar 2007, 12:51 pm

nutbag wrote:
While creating a PM to a Wrong Planeteer a moment ago a thought came to me. The essence here is something that I had considered long ago and had classed people into tw types (which I will get to in a moment).

We all take that aspies are usually emotionally and socially limited. But what exactly is that?

I think the root of AS may be that we lack certain human instincts. Therefore some things that regular people do automatically (instinctually) we do manually (intellectually/consciously).

Where I had come with this long ago was in the realization that while most people live instinctually like animals, that I do not. How about you?

If I'd posted this yesterday: my funeral would be today.

Apart from that: I have always thought this, and I agree with you.

No further comment.



nutbag
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30 Mar 2007, 2:55 pm

Oh Asperion, I hope it will take more than that to set your funeral.

To a couple of recent posters (sorry I forgot your screen names, but boy am I aspie in the recognition department!): YES! What I have noticed is that in emo or social situations I do not automatically get it, therefore I analyze. And I analize a lot.


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AC
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01 Apr 2007, 8:26 am

I agree that our difference is mainly in missing instincts - the core being the social instinct, which is not a single thing but more of an 'instinctual bag of tricks' as Nutbag says.

Keep in mind that humanity in the form of 'hominids' is supposed to be millions of years old, but society (larger social groups) only starts in the fossil record about 50,000 yrs ago.

I think AS people are the remnants of the people who preceded social evolution (revolution?) people - so we only have the simpler instincts of a simpler animal.

Wm Golding wrote a novel - The Inheritors - in which he described a little band of prehistoric non-verbal people encountering a bigger band of loud talking/violent people entering their territory. I recommend it.



invivo
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01 Apr 2007, 8:35 am

possible root? genetic diversity, evolution, why do we expect the human species to remain always the same?



Hazelwudi
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01 Apr 2007, 1:22 pm

In my experience, virtually nobody gives a damn about anyone else at all, unless disaster striking that particular person would negatively impact the interests and goals of the observer. In such a case, the observer will care for that reason, and that reason only... self-interest.

What has always amazed me is how few people are willing to face this truth. In the end, talk as you might, listen as you might, live as you might, you are ultimately alone. At best, you are a majority of one in a coldly indifferent, self-obsessed world... and for as long as you live, you always will be.



mariiha
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01 Apr 2007, 4:16 pm

Hazelwudi wrote:
In my experience, virtually nobody gives a damn about anyone else at all, unless disaster striking that particular person would negatively impact the interests and goals of the observer. In such a case, the observer will care for that reason, and that reason only... self-interest.

What has always amazed me is how few people are willing to face this truth. In the end, talk as you might, listen as you might, live as you might, you are ultimately alone. At best, you are a majority of one in a coldly indifferent, self-obsessed world... and for as long as you live, you always will be.


curious, do you suppose we may be spiritually more evolved than the self proclaimed normal world where everyone seems to be into everyone else's business; where revenge, power trips and holding grudges seems to come natural to them?
sometimes i have thought i was at a lower plane, but when i see all the hatred and self cherishing going on, it makes me think a little differently.