Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT) and Aspbergers->related?

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Yes, there is the question of if ADHD and ASD are related. They seem to share abnormalities in chromosome 16. Then there is SCT and where does this grouping of people fit in all this. The following are more detailed characteristics for SCT and ADHD. Much of the information was gleamed from here -> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1474811 As you can see the they are very different.


SCT

lethargic
confused
quiet
passive
withdrawn
working memory deficit
disorganized -sloppy -lack of planning
bored -underaroused
forgetful
careless mistakes -lack of attention to detail
difficulty with sustained focus
self conscious
shy withdrawn
weaker lingusitic skills -stonger spatial skills
slow processing speeds
the primary neural circuit is frontal–parietal


Hyperactive ADHD

hyperactive motor
overactive verbally
distractable
intrustive
impulsive, lack of inhibition
emotional
disruptive-aggressive
insufficently self conscious
alienates other children
much better response to stimulants
the primary neural circuit affected is frontal–striata

Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT) may be a subgrouping of inattentive ADHD. SCT doesn't share many of the common characteristics of ADHD, in fact the behaviours are often the polar opposite. Any comments about a possible relationship for the disorder to the Autism spectrum?

By the way I'm new to the board and a Special Ed teacher. I believe I have SCT and will actually be seeing a Dr. about this in 2 weeks to get my first possible diagnosis.

I've come hear to learn about the Autism Spectrum. I working closely with a grade 9 Autistic boy. He would be higher functioning and so far so good. We have done a lot of planning and trying to figure out how he ticks. He has had some major rages in the past.

I haven't heard of SCT before.

SCT... No, I haven't heard of it, either. I did a little Googling, though, and it sounds like SCT is a newly defined and more severe subtype of inattentive ADHD, with more pronounced lethargy, daydreaming, mental confusion, and forgetfulness.

Here's a Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo

So, since SCT is an ADHD subtype, the better discussion question might be: What is the connection between Autism spectrum disorders and ADHD? And, when ADHD and ASDs combine, what type is the ADHD most likely to be?

I have professionally-diagnosed Asperger Syndrome; I strongly suspect inattentive ADHD but have not been diagnosed. So that combination is true for me.

A special ed teacher, huh? I imagine some of us will be along to beg you not to be like (or to please be like) Spec. Ed. teachers we've known and loved/hated!

9th grade and HFA... wow. High school is probably the hardest time of your life, and autism makes it harder. He's probably got a lot of talent, though--Autie brains are just like that, with really irregular scores between abilities, and the higher scores representing talents that most NTs (neuro-typicals) don't have. Now, if he can just use those high scores to compensate for the low scores...!

Re. meltdowns: This guy really has my sympathy; I know what he's going through because I had horrid temper tantrums into my late teen years.

This is what it's like: Sometimes life seems out of control, and you hide/run/crawl away and cry for ages, and then you have a headache; and sometimes you're even frustrated enough to break things or hit things, and then you're sorry later you broke them, and your hands hurt and your head hurts where you bashed them against things.

I hope he learns to control/predict those things soon, because it really make life miserable when you're afraid you can't even control or trust yourself when things get too loud/messy/smelly/unpredictable/etc.

Anyway, welcome to the board--feel free to ask us whatever you like. There are people of all ages and income levels here, and quite a lot of countries are represented.

Last edited by Callista on 02 Nov 2006, 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo for a brief discription. Laymans discriptions often used for the disorder is spacey..foggy. I just did an incredible amount of daydreaming as a kid. With SCT there is a real processing deficit. Info doesn't get in as quickly and there can be mental confusion. Also memory retrival problems. Does that sound like ADHD or possibly more like ASD?

I'm old enough to have never seen Spec ed in school. I would have been in such a class. I failed a grade and had a very hard time until I found art. I can relate to your feelings about teachers. I got really bummed out when I went back to school in my first teaching round...lots of bad memories. Failed my first two teaching rounds two!! But I slugged it out. Sometimes it just takes me a lot longer to pick up skills that others pick more easily. You get why I picked the tortoise for my name?

It sounds more like ADHD than ASD--much more.

People on the spectrum do process things differently; but if the information going in gets through our senses properly, I don't think we process them any more slowly than people who aren't on the spectrum. Sometimes, in areas of expertise or by using alternative ways of thinking (visual, for example), we can process them faster. It's really only in the area of socializing that people with ASDs are predictably slow in processing information; or else are incorrect, forgetful, or unable to process it at all. (Notice how that sounds, just a little, like ADHD in a very specific area?)

I would not be surprised if inattentive ADHD or even CBT is a common comorbid to ASDs, though... A lot of Aspies are first misdiagnosed as ADHD, and it seems a lot of Aspies have ADHD. Also, a lot of people with ADHD have social problems.

I don't have any statistics on that, though.

Correlations between ADHD and the autism spectrum:
--Social problems are common
--Sensory processing is different from normal
--Areas of special talent, high IQs, and a high level of creativity are more common than in the rest of the population.
--Easily distracted, originating either internally (ASDs) or externally (ADHD)
--Easily bothered by things that don't usually bother others: Flourescent lights, scratchy clothing, noises, etc.

Seems that there might be some overlap.

I'm a spec ed teacher too, and I see this everyday. In my school district we don't "code" SCT, but it's very apparent in some of our students. It's most common in ADHD-coded kids. These kids will "space out" and look almost like they're drugged. They have a very hard time regaining focus, and not only do they seem mentally "numb" and unaware, they can sometimes be physically numb and unaware too - in a sense they are "depressed," although it is in regards to their cognitive processes and not mood. One of the worst cases of this I saw was last Monday - the student, a 5th grader, basically acted as though in a persistant stupor. There were indicators that his cognitive functions - reading, comprehesion, critical thinking - were impaired only in that they were very "sluggish" and that he was very easily distracted. Otherwise, he was capable and high functioning. He was coded ADHD.

I don't think you're going to see SCT in AS kids like you might with ADHD. Often times AS and other high functioning autistics has "spells" where they zone out, usually due to being overwhelmed, or they are very unstimulated by an activity and their thought processess wander off. Autistics, like ADHD kids, are highly sensitve to their environment, and that factors into how effective their cognitive processes are working at any given time. I know that when I was a kid, I sometimes had trouble being mentally alert and "with it," but I had numbers of stresses at school and home I couldn't cope with. As an adult, I tend to be like this when I'm tired and haven't been eating well. However, for myself, this was never a persistant problem, and I see that patern in my AS kids too, which is why I do not equate this "occasional" spacing out with SCT, per se, but tot he complication of other, transistory factors like fatigue, hunger, stress, disinterest, etc.

So overall I have yet to see a kid with an ASD that exhibits persistant SCT-like symptoms the way I see it in the ADHD-coded kids or other kids (usu. emotional distrubed, esp reactive detachment disorder; ODD; bipolar). I did have one students last year, very young student that came in coded with AS, but it was apparent to me this wasn't close to be correct. She was very expressive, social and talkative, except when you asked her to do her classwork. Then *bam!* she'd zone out. Everytime. Nothing engaged her. Basically, any acitivty that made her really use her cognitive processes would trigger this. She'd yawn a lot, appear very unresponsive, she'd even have a hard time keeping a crayon or pencil in her hand. I eventually got her re-evaluated and they changed her coding and IEP.

I seem to have both Asperger's and SCT

I'm very foggy.

Are ASD folks good planners? It just occured to me that ASDers may also live in the moment. That is to be reactionary to their enviornment, especially with regards to the social enviornment.

Yep..


confused
withdrawn
working memory deficit
forgetful
slow processing speeds

...I definately have the slower processing speeds. LOL

There's a difference between SCT and inattentive-type ADHD, isn't there, though? I'm not hyperactive, but I fit inattentive ADHD perfectly. My mind goes very fast and in a hundred different directions rather than being forgetful and slow. I do have trouble with working memory, planning, and keeping a list of things in my mind.

When I think about something, it triggers a hundred associations within seconds... I can be way off topic before a person finishes a sentence.

But I don't think I process things nearly as thoroughly as someone with a slower "processing speed" might; because I make associations "horizontally", to other topics, rather than "vertically", deeper into the same topic.

Those of you who fit the "SCT" definition--does that last paragraph describe how you think, or am I off course?

I think that I have SCT, but not ADD. I think that I was "always" prone to daydreaming, spacey, lethargic and sluggish. Even when hyperactive or hyperkinetic/stimming. I like to do many thing slowly, it is a "pleasant routine". SCT is almost unknown in my country, but appears to be a serious problem for me. I maybe can't imagine living without it so much

I am scholastically talented, but do not think about future job and have problems with complex projects on the studies. I like simple works, which rather can be done well by someone with intellectual disability and are rather boring for "normal" people. I ave serious mental problems.

Locked due to necro posting.

Hello.

My psychologist didn't give a crap doing a neurological examination despite me trying her to make one. So she only made one for neurotypical. I admit I had been without SSRI making myself a bit depressed which could cause a practical IQ decrease. Also literally hand't been able to sleep also likely lowering it.

My new doc is criticising that psychologist now 4 years after for not doing any neurological test. The thing the psychologist managed to figure out without only doing neurotypical test was Sluggish cognitive tempo and perservative behaviour.Before that I've asked for Methylphenidate for about 10 years because Bupropion which affect dopamine was helpful for focus and social (and possibly general) anhedonia. I had to stop due to allergy. I then tried Methylphenidate myself for 5 days (I only had that much) with great improvement. I asked her a bit sardonic, if someone is having "sluggish cognitive tempo" what could people profiting on being given at such a state? she just shook it off like nothing. That I happened to have an IQ score with a 40 points discrepancy she didn't even mention bother to tell me so I had to do some research myself. I also brought up that to her, she just shook that off as well treating me as neurotypical. I've made ADD tests on the internet. Those long ones with 60 questions or so and came out with like ADD but who the f**k listens to one when you tell the docs or even psychologists about them?

80 Practical IQ (take into account the thing about being depressed and lack of sleep thank you) and 120 Verbal IQ and I couldn't have gotten more if I didn't considered those question so damn stupid I gave them the correct answer and not the one that was giving me points.

However even if not taking sleepdeprivation and depression into account in my case it I concluded by some reserach that I either "have" Non Verbal Learning Disorder (a specific type of Asperger but is still called Asperger so not to cause too much splitting for those lazy sods doing these sorts of things).

Either that or I am suffering from Cerebral Pares.

I also always been daydreaming, understimulated only able do to thing which interested me like videogames and programming and I got prominent in both. I managed to keep above above average grade at high school despite sacrificing sleep,exercise and diet for keep on doing those few things I only could do without losing interest (can't stand repetitions like those in mathbooks, they're to easy in the beginning and then I miss out the important parts and the booom comes a question which I totally mess upp with. I also also tends to zone out often when disinterested (which is often)

I come to think of one letter here saying something about having high "practical IQ, spatiovisual and so on but lower Verbal IQ and sluggish cognitive temp" but as it seems for me my strength is in the verbal area (or was if I haven't rusted totally).

So basically my life has been, special interest which has taken priority before meeting with other people (which I regret somewhat nowadays but still that was what gave me something), sluggish cognitive tempo probably possibly until interested in something. I also did some focustest, a military one and scored 60% above average and could possibly have gone higher. It was something about keeping a crosshair in a circle and answering on simple math question at the same time. Not that funny but something that might have held my interest.

My new doc strongly suspects ADD and probably will refer me to a psychologist at age 34. I've been in contact with psychiatry since the age of 17 and the first diagnose I got was Schizophrenia simplex. That was after suffering from a severe depression for 4 years. So the first thing the asshatlady gave me was high dose risperidone instead of SSRI despite me asking for it explicitly. I only got SSRI 2 years after that when I meat a doc with at least half a brain and I improved immensly however it didn't last long and now I am basically dysthymic and apathic.

Before SSRI I also had aggressive outburst much due to severe anxiety which no one seemed to care much about, hitting walls and so on knowing it would not help but still did it and like someone wrote in the thread sort of regretted afterward. That sound a bit more like Aspie than ADD. And there's a few doc also suspecting Aspie in my case and also other Aspies and even laymen.

So probably Aspie (Non Verbal Diagnose) and ADD (or at least sluggish cognitive tempo) but what seems like hyperfocus seems to indicate ADD.

I wrote this here because docs are hurried these days and the more I talk about things to them the more they seem likely to misdiagnose me. It might have something to do with their prestige as well which is pathetic that they must put their ego above the health of the patient especially when the patient socioeconomical situation is s**t compared to their own. So this is my life, I thought that If I had gotten methylphenidate (or similiar) and possibly (some understanding and maybe even helpgroups despite being a misantrophe) I could have been somewhere not broke, without any friends, no education except the one I learnt on the internet and losing interests everyday. As I said now I am 34, missed out too much and cant even imagine I ever have anything resembling a life and even then I'll definitely walk around with severe bitterness due to this.

Thanks for reading.

I just like to add I added Tianeptine mainly for depression but I think it might have improved cognition. The cognition decrement could also have been reduced by SSRI. I Think I am not alone of getting that effect by drugs lowering norepinephrine and dopamine. Also it had a good effect on anxiety. There's speculation about the real mechanism of the drug. Some say it works the opposite of SSRI however it's also used as adjunction in a study with success. Other data claims it makes something with NMDA/AMPA receptor and therefore manipulating glutamate. And at higher doses it acts on opioid-receptors. It also seems to be able to help restore libido reduced by SSRI/SNRI drugs.

The bad initial effect was profound physical laziness. I stopped excersise. Also music appreciation took a hit.
I think i've developed a tolerance and I increased my dose after a while and now I am without it. I can't order it and my doc will of course not help me even though it's able to get it on license then as (coaxil).

Some say the think it may work slightly for ADD but I suppose if one is not abusing it I imagine it being milder on the system than psycho stimulants. Someone at a forum described it as an anti-antistimulant which was quite nifty written.

I supposed noone have been as unlucky as myself when it comes to getting denial of denial that probably could have at least worked somewhat but if someone happens to be in a similiar situation (allergy towards bupropion and stupidly denied what would the most obvious alternative methylphenidate for 10+ years) I thought I would share.