"Low Functioning" NVLD

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Unless this person has other neurological impairments which have somehow been overlooked, this case (and my own...read my previous posts on WP and you'll see what I mean) is NVLD at it's very worst IMO.





http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/oah/dds ... 8.0084.pdf


If we're just basing this on Samuel B's highest IQ test results ALONE (VIQ-116/PIQ-81) his cognitive capacity and level of functioning should NOT be significantly worse than most other NLD-ers who have been far more successful in school, work and life in general.


I say this because the highest IQ scores you ever obtain are SUPPOSEDLY the most accurate indicator of your true intellectual potential.


So....what is the difference between NLD-ers like myself and Samuel B. (who seem to be all-but non-existent within normal or better IQ ranges) and NLD-ers who have been infinitely more successful in life?

The IQ scores AND patterns of the former are not substantially different from those of the latter.

In fact....I have obtained significantly higher IQ scores (professionally administred ones....I don't bother with online IQ tests) than many of my fellow NLD-ers who have been light years more successful.


Anybody have any insight into this?.....because i'm simply tapped out.


I have spent years, online and elsewhere, researching the brain and everything that could possibly go wrong with it.


All this and I have no better answers in regards to my own neuropsychological problems than I did when I began this "quest".


So....as always....i'm wondering if anyone out there has answers which have thus far eluded me.

Isn't it ... isn't this question just saying,
If I'm so smart and intelligent, then why don't people like me?
or
How long do I have to study alone in the library
How many books to I have to read
To learn how to be Popular and Successful like So-and-so?
or
If Mr.John Smith, CEO of TonsObux, INC has the same diagnosis as me,
why don't I have everything like he has?

Then the answer is do what he does and get what he got.
Easier said than done, but obviously not impossible if you have the same diagnosis.

OR MAYBE the other guy didn't need to work so hard,
maybe he got lucky, won the lottery, or was helped by family or something.

It seems like what you're implying here is that there's quite a bit of "free will" involved in this.

Well.....based upon my own self-observations for forty years now...I have very strong doubts about that.


I don't believe I "choose" find math (beyond simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division) utterly incomprehensible.

I don't believe I "choose" to be baffled by any mechanical task more difficult than screwing in a lightbulb.

I don't believe I "choose" the profound memory impairments which I certainly seem to have.

I could go on all night and if you've read some of my posts related to all this....I do describe my learning/memory deficits in alot more detail.


If you haven't read them and you wish to....let me know and i'll send you links to these posts.


All this and I scored 143 (full scale.....my VIQ was 155 and my PIQ was 111) on the most recent WAIS I took. This test was professionally-administred by a licensed neuropsychologist....it wasn't out of the cyber cracker jack box.


I'm afraid the brain may be far more complicated you seem to think it is. * Unsucessful* person X may have the same exact diagnosis as *sucessful* person Y .

But does this mean that person X is DEFINITELY able to be as sucessful as person Y simply by making every effort to "do what he did"?


Well...not necessarily considering we have not yet achieved omniscience when it comes to our knowledge of the brain.

Person X might have received a misdiagnosis for one thing. Or they could have serious neuropsychological impairments which simply don't manifest themselves on standard neuropsychological tests.

Case/s in point:


http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472


Even the most advanced neuroimaging tools like SPECT and fMRI scans might miss certain severe neurological deficits.


So until we know ALOT more about the brain...I believe (and I say this with all due respect) it's bit presumptous and irrational to believe everyone with some sort of neuropsychological disorder can *succeed" simply because many, or even most, who share the *unsucessful* person's DX do.


BTW...the social deficits that often come with NVLD/AS are the very least of my worries. I have them.....in abundance. I only wish they were extent my problems.

Because IQ has nothing to do with success. I have an average IQ and I still have the same difficulties you have. I can't do math (dyscalculia). I can't even change a light bulb, never mind other mechanical tasks. I did at one point know how to repair computers but that bit of knowledge has gone.

Success has to do with how you were raised, what education you had and what opportunities came your way.
I had a lot of opportunities that I was to scared to take, so when the latest opportunities came my way I jumped at them. They may not seem that big of a deal to some people but now my life is slowly getting better.
Success is also measured on just how committed you are and what lengths you would go to. I can't really talk for you, because I don't know what your life has been like. I'm just giving you my theory on this whole situation.

For years I have tried to force myself to do things that were beyond my mental capability, then when I 'd sit down and draw it was something that I barely had to think about. We're all different. Some people are good at math, some at writing and others at more artistic things. We may or may not be good at all those things.

Oh by the way, I relate a lot to how Samuel was like at school, apart from the only subject I excelled at was Art and possibly learning another language.

I wonder if what really matters is the degree of the sensory, perceptual, memory and attention problems that interfere with things like doing math calculations or mechanical things more complicated than screwing in a lightbulb. A high IQ is nearly irrelevant, because it just allows you to generalize and make inferences about certain sorts of abstract problems. To apply it to any real-world skill, you need basic real-world concepts to apply it to (like how basic devices work, for example). If you lack a reliable base of information about lightbulbs or human facial expressions and gestures, you can have over 150 IQ and still consistently over- or under-generalize. Also, many of these skills (particularly social ones) take place at a high speed. Compensating using high IQ only works when there is a great deal of time to think about the problem. Does this make sense?

All the things you mentioned can certainly play a role, but only memory and perceptual problems seem to in my case. I have no significant issues with attention/concentration. Nor do I have any major sensory problems. I would think if you're INTELLIGENT enough (forget IQ scores themselves)....average at least...you could eventually figure out how basic devices work. I frankly don't know if I could ever figure out how to change my own tires.

You won't know until you try.

I have tried to do countless things even easier than changing a tire and I epic fail everytime. I have trouble MOPPING FLOORS corrrectly!! ! My visual-spatial skills are just that bad.

At least you are good at visual art.....I can't even draw a decent stick figure. My fine motor skills are so bad that I can barely even sign my own name.


At least you once knew how to repair computers irrespective of whether you've since forgotten. I could NEVER envision myself learning the slightest thing about computer repair.

About the only thing I can do with computers is add a link to my posts and I only recently learned how to do that!! !

Oh sure....I could probably LEARN how to operate powerpoint or adobe photoshop. But I would forget much, if not all, of what I learned in a matter of hours, if not minutes.

I'm telling you....my memory is like sieve. EVERYTHING falls out of it except for a few isolated particles of information.


My life is a living hell and it always has been. Only my intact and obviously very strong self-preservation instinct prevents me from killing myself.

While it may seem like it.....i'm not really complaining or "whining" here. I'm simply trying to describe my reality the best way I know how.

I can kind of relate to your problems, only mildy. I have had some memory problems. I remember I was so bad at that computer course that I spend my nights re-reading howstuffworks.com just so I could pass a test. It's also taken me 6 months to read a starmap. I still get confused which is north/south/east/west. And lately, I've been jumping up and down like Donald Duck because I can't view the Moon through a telescope.

It sounds like you have some severe dyspraxia. I would say ADD for the memory problems but you said you haven't got concentration problems. Your brain is probably underdeveloped in parts and overdeveloped in other areas.
Good luck with the neurologist. Keep us posted, or even PM me. I'd be interested in knowing what's going on in that brain of yours.

It's possible to have perceptual issues and not realize it. Not all "sensory issues" are about hypersensitivity or other more commonly talked about things. And if you have always been a certain way it can be hard to understand how others see them. There are things I only know about myself after learning others don't see them that way.

Also, IQ is not the only measure of ability. I know an autistic woman with an IQ of 67 who has multiple university degrees. My IQ is higher than hers and I burned out of college every single time I tried. And I know another autistic woman with an IQ in the high fifties who runs rings around me in terms of self-care skills. What is likely is that you have difficulties that are not adequately measured by IQ tests, combined with some other people having opportunities you have not had. For difficulties not measured in IQ tests for example, I have taken a test of life skills that gives a score that more accurately reflects my skills, an IQ test simply doesn't measure those skills for me because it's the wrong test for that. (Not that my current IQ is all that high.)

Horus, don't shortchange yourself. You're not only saying you can't change your own tires, you're also implying that you're dumb. You don't talk like you're dumb, and you don't test dumb, either.

If it makes you feel any better, I have tested at 153 IQ twice, am an A student, am 20 years old, and earlier this year I had no clue how a coffeemaker worked, or that you couldn't run water over the mechanism for a blender. (My thought process: it's not plugged in now so I won't get electrocuted, and the water will either come back out and evaporate, so why would there be a problem later?) ::facepalm:: If you explain to me how stuff works, I'm smart enough to understand it, but I've yet to figure even the smallest mechanical thing out on my own. On the other hand, I do have problems with perception, attention, and working memory, so that might be why. If you don't have to deal with those things, fantastic! It sounds like you have enough on your plate already, without having to deal with that, too.

OK, perhaps it was presumptuous to assume my experience applied here. And yeah, my whole laundry list of possible causes isn't going to apply to everyone, thankfully! In a way though, thinking IQ is irrelevant can be kind of comforting. After all, if anyone with at least an average IQ could figure out how a coffeemaker worked or whatever, then the fact that I can't do that means that I'm just not trying hard enough. Either that, or the IQ tests are wrong and I'm really just stupid. To the extent you can just "reason it out," there is an element of choice. Like you, I don't think anyone <i>chooses</i> not to be able to do these sorts of things. So I don't think this is something everyone can just "reason out."

Horus, you said you've gotten professional IQ testing. Have you gotten any further neuropsych evaluation? If you did, was the person who did it able to refer you to anyone who could help you?

My latest IQ was 58, and I was passing Criminal Justice subjects when I could make it through the entire term; I kept on leaving due to the feelings I felt at that time, that are now recognized as a part of sensory processing disorder.

If you have a subscale or two that's high (a couple of my performance ones are), it can really take up the slack from the others that are low. This is in my experience, anyway.

However, I'm not successful in the usual ways (which I don't particularly care about), so never mind me.

To add,

They never brought up my cognitive ability when I applied for services....

Lso as I brought up in the other thread it's a known fact that in autism and related conditions, IQ has very little to do with life skills below IQ 70 and nothing at all to do with them above IQ 70. Your IQ is way into the range where it makes zero difference as to life skills.

I don't know what you're looking for but that's the way it works for people in these neurological categories. As I said in the other thread my earliest IQ was higher than yours and my life skills are far worse than yours. That's just the way it goes for people in our general neurological vicinity. You are unlikely to ever find more reason than that given even the researchers don't understand it. There's no magical trait that will make it all make sense, at least not right now. You're in the same boat as lots of other people and your IQ is no different than theirs.

In fact there are almost no conditions where IQ determines life skills. Most conditions that affect your life skills do it all on their own without IQ. Whether it's CP, autism, NLD, whatever. And the Verbal/Performance difference may be one way NLD is noticed, but it doesn't determine degree of NLD. (My subscores currently range from near bottom to slightly above average, but my performance/verbal split is currently very small in favor of performance -- and both my best and worst scores are in performance. So I'm in a situation where my subscore split doesn't even have a name like NLD.)

I've have five neuropsych evals in my life. None of the psychologists who administred them seemed to think my deficits were all that severe. In fact....they seem to think i've exaggerated them. I really can't agree with that...but whatever.


Case in point....here's my personality assessment from the neuropsych eval I had in 2001.

"Findings on objective and projective measures are considered to be a valid indicator of his personality profile. Findings suggest that he responds honestly and openly, but shows a strong tendancy to exaggerate his psychological turmoil (<so now we have "objective" measures to reflect an individual's psychic pain? ) and discomfort. Results reveal that Horus is experiencing mild to moderate anxiety and endorses that his hands shake and tremble, he feels terrified, nervous, scared, and is unable to relax. Test results indicate that he is experiencing a severe amount of depression and has thoughts of harming himself, but without intent. Horus' concept of himself is not well developed and is probably rather distorted. His self image tends to be based largely on imaginary rather than real experience (I have no idea what they're referring to here either...Horus) which likely contorts his perception and probably disrupts his personal relationships. Misconstrued notions of himself may interfere with logical decision making and problem solving abilities, creating a high probability for experiencing difficulties relating to others. Additionally, he tends to be lacking in flexibility, making his perspective difficult to alter. More specifically, he shows a tendency to judge himself unfavorably which is likely a precursor to feelings of hopelessness and may give rise to episodes of depression. He seems to show a tendency to be conservative in close interpersonal situations, especially those involving intimacy. Thus, he appears to be cautious about building or maintaining close emotional ties with others, likely as a means of counterbalancing his feelings of insecurity and discomfort in his relationships. He tends to anticipate disapproving interactions among people and may be less disclosive and more guarded in social settings. Thus, he might be regarded by others as being more distant and aloof. He tends to think others' lives are more satisfying than his own and that he is generally not understood by them. As a result, he seems to regard himself less favorably when he compares himself to others."

Just to make sure we're on the same page, what's your definition of "life skills"? In SOME ways, I am (or I WAS until I starting experiencing profound levels of depression again over the past year. My depression wasn't all that bad for the past ten years and now I can barely manage to get out of bed let alone anything else.) capable of living independently providing I have the financial means to do so. I did have some income from 2000-2009 and I was living in my own small apartment which I shared with a girlfriend for five of those years. I was able to cook for myself, shop, pay bills, drive, do laundry, etc.....But in other extremely critical ways...I am one of the most self-destructive and self-neglectful people I know. I don't do drugs or drink...but beyond that i've always neglected my physical health to an unspeakable degree. Even during periods of little depression, I don't eat right, I smoke heavily and I never exercise. I often don't brush my teeth for weeks on end or shower. As shameful and disgusting as all this is to admit, it's who I am. I just don't seem to have ANY motivation to do much of anything which doesn't involve pure "escapism". All the mundane tasks of daily existence seem wholly intolerable to me. Nothing about me makes any sense. I don't understand why I was able to cook, shop, pay bills, wash clothes, etc....but seemingly unable to take care of my basic health needs. Needless to say....the latter is far more within one's own interests than the former. Depression does nothing but exacerbate all of these things exponentially. My level of avolition and anhedonia is so extreme now I often don't eat anything for days on end. All this considered.....my learning/memory problems might actually be the least of my worries since I might not LIVE much longer thanks to an utter neglect of my physical health. I've often felt I may have "Simple Schizophrenia" since many of these things seem like common features of that disorder.

I have been DX-ed with schizotypal personality disorder on four out of the five neuropsych evals I had. Oddly enough, I was Dx-ed with Borderline Personality Disorder (far less common in males) on the first neuropsych eval I ever took at 23. Some psychologists consider schizotypal PD to be a mild form of schizophrenia. I don't exhibit any of the "positive" symptoms of schizophrenia like hallucinations, delusions, catatonic behavior, etc....

For all intents and purposes though....the negative signs are all there. My emotional responses are usually blunt, shallow, flat and empty. My speech is often impoverished in words and meanings. My interpersonal rapport is very poor and I feel no warmth towards anyone....even my immediate family. I have always been isolated/withdrawn, but apathy and avolition are constant companions. Such loss of interest supposedly extends to the daily details of self-care in those suffering from Simple Schizophrenia (aka..."Simple Deteriorative Disorder") so that would apply to me too.

Peculiarities of grooming, behavior, lapses in hygiene, overinvestment in odd ideas are associated features and I exhibit these too. And once again.....I am HYPER-AWARE of all these inexpressibly dysfunctional behaviors and yet I do NOTHING to change them. It's as if a monstrous degree of nihilism exists at the core of my being. I've been on countless meds over the years and none of them seemed to effect me in any appreciable way.... positive or negative. In short....i've got issues which seem to make those of the average Aspie/Autie/NLD-er pale in comparison. Now you may no longer wonder why I want to see a neurologist. I'm such a dysfunctional person that it's hard to imagine NO "red flags" emerging on an EEG, FMRI, etc....

Your life skills don't sound all that bad when you have the "little depression".