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Do LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud than Aspies?
1) Yes 28%  28%  [ 10 ]
2) No 50%  50%  [ 18 ]
3) Not sure 22%  22%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 36

Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 11:51 am

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
This is a platform of solidarity, not bitching and hidden hatred.


I apologize in advance for what I'm going to say, because it is not going to be pleasant for most users - but I have heard an opinion that Wrong Planet is more like a "safe space" or like a "mutual admiration society", than like a real support group. I've been told that on WP people are often not solution-oriented enough, and just validate each other instead of offering true advice and real solutions.

The person who told me about that also compared Wrong Planet with Reddit r/aspergers and said that on Reddit people are more likely to question your diagnosis, while on WP people cling to their self-diagnosis too much, and are eager to claim that everyone else must be an autist too. As you can see I also got labelled as an autist, against my will, immediately after starting to post on this forum. :lol:

PS:

I just wrote what another person told me, but I'm not saying that I fully agree with that opinion. Perhaps you can give it some thought and think about ways to improve Wrong Planet and make it an even better place.



Last edited by Xardas on 11 Mar 2017, 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 12:07 pm

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
Yes, my friend is NT. He picked it up when I tried to explain that I can't tell when people are joking.

As for differences, they are the more imperceivable differences such as how things make us feel or the gaps in NT reasoning. It's more of an experience but that doesn't mean you can't empathize. We take in stride with others but here we get to know if it's just us or a general problem. Yes, we are all human. We love being human! Being treated as human. Here, people are willing to explain things to you like you're five but still holding intelligent conversation. In real life, people expect us to already know. That feeling where you feel like a minority, you were like us in that moment. Except you can turn off the screen.


Good that you mentioned the gaps in NT reasoning. It's not just Aspies, NT people are also not perfect. But with mutual efforts and learning how to understand each other's ways of reasoning, we can be on the same wavelength.

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
As for your willingness to learn or rather understand, I appreciate that personally. It makes teaching a bit easier. I'm not trying to offend you. You know just as well as we all do that our identity opinions on this site have a very large range. Some people border on supremacy, and that makes it harder to reach out at times. I understand that you are not an arrogant prick trying to assert you know what is best for us, and that there are nice NTs just as they're are mean ones. I do not think that my friend cannot understand me, only that he may have to make a bit of an effort of times. I just worry about him not being able to tell whether it's the condition or I need a push in the right direction. It's already hard to understand the physical limits of someone you know intimately and emotional and mental aspects are neigh impossible. I feel a little upset with myself, because as soon as he said he knew, I tried to get him to explain to others so there was no miscommunication on my part. I have to teach others myself but the willingness to learn makes a world of difference.


Yes I agree that sometimes we NTs have to make a bit of an effort to understand you. As long as there is mutual respect and willingness to get along with each other, we can overcome any differences that are between us.



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11 Mar 2017, 12:10 pm

Xardas wrote:
How are you different from us? These differences are superficial. We are all human.

The outward differences of Asperger's is a result of different internal mental processes.

For example, I jumped when someone's pencil dropped while my NT friends doesn't react to it in any way. My NT friend's brain was able to process it as "Oh, a pencil dropped." and remain calm. Meanwhile my brain was like, "WHAT HAPPENED? WHAT WAS THAT? HELP!" and so I reacted differently.

Yes, we are all human, but in many cases, Asperger's causes differences that really need a specific kind of help to deal with, other wise it will hold back a person from suceeding. Even when other people are not discriminating.


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Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 12:21 pm

248RPA wrote:
Yes, we are all human, but in many cases, Asperger's causes differences that really need a specific kind of help to deal with, other wise it will hold back a person from suceeding. Even when other people are not discriminating.


OK, I can only agree with that.

248RPA wrote:
I jumped when someone's pencil dropped while my NT friends doesn't react to it in any way. My NT friend's brain was able to process it as "Oh, a pencil dropped." and remain calm. Meanwhile my brain was like, "WHAT HAPPENED? WHAT WAS THAT? HELP!" and so I reacted differently.


This is a convincing example.



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11 Mar 2017, 12:24 pm

Xardas wrote:
WP people cling to their self-diagnosis too much, and are eager to claim that everyone else must be an autist too. As you can see I also got labelled as an autist, against my will, immediately after starting to post on this forum. :lol:

I'm sorry that happened to you. Some people, especially Aspies, leap to conclusions without taking the time to know the entire situation.


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Desmilliondetoiles
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11 Mar 2017, 12:40 pm

I'll admit to an extent that we deviate from the average support group but support also comes from feeling that your feelings and experiences are validated and that you're okay. First step to seeking help is acceptance, and all that. The more angsty and validation texts may come from people who either don't have the resources to get a proper diagnosis or are petrified of the stigma. Some people try to take care of themselves behind closed doors. There's a stigma, no question.

Plainly, the hardest thing to do is to convince people that a dialogue is necessary. People come here to know what is normal as opposed to knowing how to cope (although you will find the few odd posts, especially in parenting, that attempt this). The fact the site exists is a start but I think the best way to approach it is to read up a bit on your own before asking serious questions to prove that your really want to learn so that your questions are better guided. We have plenty of references for NTs given that it's the general populace that produce media. Although, I'm sure there are some who'd be happy to see things or get better clarification from your perspective.

The site's founder had a documentary where an NT explained that she felt that everyone had a little Aspie in them. The actual Aspies were just more obvious. Yes, people are quick to diagnose but it is a safe space for some and when you invalidate their identity, they are sure to take offense. Imagine if someone told you you weren't Polish enough to be considered Polish? If you didn't act like what you preached. When you were annoyed about his imposed diagnosis on you, he demonstrated how he hates the idea that he would be stripped of the familiar. He shouldn't do that, and I do not know him in any familiar way as I am relatively new. Yet I understand he didn't have the words to explain what he was getting at. I could be completely wrong or bang on. He'll have to tell us. The only issue is it's harder to say so he may still not be able to get his point across.

I apologize for the delay. I'm ill.


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Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 1:19 pm

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
I apologize for the delay.


Oh there is no need to apologize :wink:, I don't expect you to be browsing the forum 24/7. You could respond to my post for example tomorrow, or even later. I would not mind. Of course in face-to-face discussions people are expected to reply immediately (without "awkward silence"), but very different standards apply to online discussions.

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
I'm ill.


Get well soon!

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
The site's founder had a documentary where an NT explained that she felt that everyone had a little Aspie in them. The actual Aspies were just more obvious.


I agree. And I can add, that every Aspie has a little NT in them too. But it is not so obvious either.

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
Yes, people are quick to diagnose but it is a safe space for some and when you invalidate their identity, they are sure to take offense. Imagine if someone told you you weren't Polish enough to be considered Polish? If you didn't act like what you preached. When you were annoyed about his imposed diagnosis on you, he demonstrated how he hates the idea that he would be stripped of the familiar. He shouldn't do that, and I do not know him in any familiar way as I am relatively new. Yet I understand he didn't have the words to explain what he was getting at. I could be completely wrong or bang on. He'll have to tell us. The only issue is it's harder to say so he may still not be able to get his point across.


OK, me and Naturalplastic have already explained this in private messages. And I don't take offense.

I also apologize if I wrote anything that could imply that I'm trying to forcibly invalidate your identity.



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11 Mar 2017, 1:27 pm

It's fine! I'm still settling in. I read everything as you being curious. I was just trying to explain that your tone seemed hostile (because you had questioned the lack of pride parades) and that could have led to the miscommunication-fueled conflict. I'm happy you guys made up.


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Copernicus
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11 Mar 2017, 5:14 pm

I'm afraid I'm replying to this rather late in the story, but here are my two cents. As someone who is on the spectrum and gay I have a bit of a cross over view on this issue.

Firstly gay (LGBTQI) pride is really a response to a society has regularly shamed people for their deviant sexual desires and practices and their deviant relationship to gender roles. Saying your proud and gay, or proud and LGBTQI, is kind of like saying you refuse to be ashamed anymore. Its also about saying you refuse to hide in the shadows anymore. This still is an ongoing struggle and in some countries it has barely even started.

To be frank I'd say that people on the spectrum have as much right as gay people to say that they refuse to be ashamed of, deny, or pathologise their way of experiencing the world and other people. I think this is a driving force behind the neurodiversity movement. After all its not so long ago that people on the spectrum were regularly institutionalised for life. Its also not long ago that being gay was illegal.

Many people on the spectrum have also likely experienced the stigma associated with mental health problems. After all quite a few of us experience multiple different psychiatric problems. Its kind of a double whammy really.

As far as LGBTQI culture goes, well that's pretty fragmented too. Its not really a global thing. Although there are gay male novels, gay male films and gay male artists, the majority of the gay scene (on or of line) is primarily driven by sex. Its not like there is some grand unifying culture that people hook into when they come out. And of course there are significant differences again if you consider the cultural self expression of Lesbians, trans people. But I have no expertise on those cultures, I can only really speak as an outsider. LGBTQI culture is kind of like a patch work quilt, not an organic whole.

Although there is not as much autistic culture, there are novels and biographies of autistics and art works by autistic artists and increasingly also theory about autism by autistic people. Admittedly there is a much smaller pool of cultural products and practices at the moment, but who knows where that will be in the future.



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11 Mar 2017, 5:41 pm

A few points.

Autistics are human but autism is defined as a PERVASIVE developmental disorder. Pervasive means anything but superficial differences.

Wrong Planet is not a true safe space. A forum with safe space elements would be more accurate. The site owner and founder Alex Plank accepts and wants NT's here. NT's are not guests, they are members or users just like autistic members. A true safe space allows no "outsiders" . That said there is a strong Autistics supporting each other purpose here.

I can not speak for other Autism sites but this site has a large group of older self diagnosed autistics and people that suspect they are autistic. They come from an era when their type of autism was not recognized. Today the vast majority of Autism research and supports go to child and teen autism so often clinicians that understand adult autism are unavailable and unaffordable.

Related to the last paragraph Autism has only been relativly recently been recognized and the idea of an autistic rights movement and autistics supporting each other is very new. Which means we are all still trying to figure this out. This leads to confusion and fundemental disagreement as to who is Autistic. That makes educating oneself about autism a diificult endeavor full of contradictory messages.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 11 Mar 2017, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Mar 2017, 6:12 pm

Jacoby wrote:
They have a real community and culture, we don't.


This! Right on the money.


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Copernicus
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11 Mar 2017, 6:32 pm

Xardas wrote:
I noticed that there are "Gay Pride Parades", but there are no any "Asperger Pride Parades".

I do understand why Aspies are not proud of being Aspies and therefore don't have parades.

But what I do not understand, is why is the LGBTQ community proud of being LGBTQ ???

Do you think that LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud of who they are than Aspies?


Hello Xardas,

I'm just wondering what motivated you to ask the above question in the first place? It really does seem like you are angry about something. Specially considering the discussion has ended up with a discussion of whether wrongplanet is a "safe space" or not.

Firstly regarding the aspergers subreddit: you seem to suggest that people there question other people's diagnoses. Frankly this doesn't seem like a good thing, since no one online really has a right to do that and most likely most likely most of us would not be qualified to do it offline either. On the other hand people do often describe themselves here and ask people's opinion about whether it would be worthwhile pursuing a diagnosis. My impression is that generally people respond very helpfully.

Secondly regarding the suggestion that wrongplanet is a "safe space": surely you can decide not to post here if you feel it is over moderated. If you are more comfortable with the subreddit why not post there? I mean if you really care about not being in a "safe space" 4chan is still around.

This leads me to wonder again what motivates your original question?



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11 Mar 2017, 7:26 pm

Quote:
Imagine if someone told you you weren't Polish enough to be considered Polish?


I know this is off topic but I can't resist the urge to comment.

I have Native American in me but only the blood but I am not Native American so I have been told I am not one. That doesn't offend me. I have some English in me, German, Scottish, Hungarian, etc. and I don't get offended if I were told I wasn't English or Scottish or German because I didn't have enough. It's the same as telling someone they don't have autism because they don't have enough of the symptoms or are not impaired enough by it. But there are gray areas like they have symptoms but not enough for a true diagnoses but their impairments are significant enough so they still get the diagnoses for the help they need.


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12 Mar 2017, 12:41 pm

Okay, now your posts are coming-across as angry, argumentative, combative, or something. I thought we were just having a conversation, here----an exchange of ideas / opinions----but, now it seems like you have some kind of agenda, or something; but, I'll go this round with you.....

Xardas and Campin_Cat wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Yes, I have also known a couple of gay people, who later determined they were actually straight (we also have a non-Trans person on this site, who used to be Trans). IMO, that means they weren't gay, to-begin-with----that, maybe, because they were only able to communicate with / relate to their own gender, they misconstrued it to mean that they were gay, or something. I don't think there's a definitive answer----I have heard more-than-one person say that they felt sexuality was a spectrum, as well, and I can see how that could be.

IMO you are making up various circumstances to explain this (like the idea that they were only able to communicate with their own gender - you have no evidence that it was the case). For some reason you don't want to believe that sexuality can be fluid. I prefer to go with Occam's razor and to assume that they used to be gay but their sexuality has changed.

What circumstanceS----I only listed ONE, and I was giving you my OPINION; hence, the usuage of the terms, "maybe" and "or something"----and, your use of the term "making-up" seems to indicate that you think I was trying to deceive you; but, again, I'm only voicing my opinion (which is what, INITIALLY, you seemed to be requesting). I don't have any evidence----and, IMO, none was needed----because, IMO, it was clear I was only giving my opinion.

As for sexuality being fluid: I DID say that there are those who believe sexuality is on a spectrum, and that I can see how that could be. Again, you seem angry, or like you have an agenda----like, you've already got your mind made-up about what things, ARE, or whatever, and you're not willing to see it any other way / any other side, to it.

As for the simplest answer is often correct (Occam's razor): "Correct" is subjective, is it not! Who's to say YOU are correct----how 'bout, if NEITHER of us is wrong, and that we're just different / think differently!!


Campin_Cat wrote:
As for people "growing out of Autism", I don't think that's possible----to me that would seem like the same as someone just suddenly morphing into the opposite gender. I think what happens, is that people develop "tricks" / work-arounds / whatever, that make them APPEAR that they've grown-out of Autism (they could probably even be tested and found NOT to be Autistic), but that doesn't mean, IMO, that they're "over it", have been cured, or whatever.

Autism is a spectrum and IMO moving along the spectrum to become more NT-like is possible.

Sure, it's possible----I can be NT-like----but, I was responding to a very matter-of-fact statement of yours:

"There are also people who 'grow out of autism'."

IMO, there was nothing in that statement to indicate "I think", "IMO", "maybe", etc. I feel one can't make statements like that, and then get seemingly defensive with the person, who responded with all that they had to work-with (IOW, IF you were not meaning to sound that way, then I can't be expected to read your mind----especially, when there's only the written word, with no voice inflection or facial expression to be read).

Again, it's coming-across like you have an agenda. Did you come here, thinking we needed to be taught a lesson----and that YOU, above all others, could accomplish that. We've experienced many, MANY people like that, here, and they don't fare, well, here, cuz nobody likes unsolicited advice.


Question is where do you want to draw the line between being "already NT" and "still autistic".

I, personally, have nothing to do with where the line is drawn----only in regard to where I want to draw it, for ME, and I am in agreement with my Aspie diagnosis----but, if there was some kind of movement to campaign for changes, to help others, I might participate in something like that, depending on the catalyst, etc. (I feel I'm doing that, by participating in this thread with others).

Quote:
Yes, Aspies are OFTEN considered retards, when we display social awkwardness, or are slow on the uptake of jokes or sarcasm, or whatever (afterall, "retarded" DOES mean "slow"----and, I'm certainly aware of my being slow). As for us being smarter than NTs, I don't think that's true, either----again, I think we APPEAR to be smarter because one of our greatest passions seems to be learning (but, as I have said often, IMO, "learned" is NOT the same as being "smart").[/b]

OK but this refers to being "socially retarded" rather than being "intellectually retarded".

Yes, the examples I gave, were of being "socially retarded"----but, those were just the two that I thought-of, off the-top-of-my-head, and it would've been too long, to go-through the list of the many other things.

If someone is not slow on the uptake of jokes or sarcasm, can such a person still be autistic?

Yes, I feel that they can be----I feel I'M pretty good with those things----cuz, like you said, that's just the social part of it, and "the social part of it" is not the ONLY thing that "defines" (for lack of a better word) an Aspie.

Because I know a person who understands jokes and sarcasm pretty well, but she used to be labelled as an Aspie. Maybe she just "grew out of it"? Understanding jokes and sarcasm is not something that can be learned.

I don't believe a person can grow-out of it; IMO, they just "present", better----and, IMO, understanding jokes and sarcasm CAN be learned. There is an ENDLESS amount of threads on this site, asking "What does this mean" (a phrase or the way in which the phrase was used, for instance). I'm thinking the way a person is raised (and others to which they're exposed), and experiences they've had and whether or not they've grown (learned) from those experiences, etc., determines how / when / how quickly an Aspie picks-up on things. A prime example, IMO, is when someone comes to this site, who has never been exposed to British people / British English, and doesn't understand what the British person is trying to convey----then, after awhile, they DO learn; but, that doesn't mean they're no longer an Aspie.

Also, IMO, there is, like, "generic" sarcasm, and then there's "cultural sarcasm", and then there's "idiosyncratic sarcasm", and there's "current sarcasm" vs "old-school sarcasm", etc., etc., etc.----and, maybe NOBODY, then, has a natural knack, for ALL sarcasm; but, IMO, most of us Aspies are naturally more slower, with it.







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12 Mar 2017, 12:53 pm

Xardas, can you write a summary of what you know or have researched about Asperger's? (I know that writing everything you know about it will probably be too long.) It seems like your understanding of Asperger's is different from our understanding, and it is causing some miscommunication.


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12 Mar 2017, 1:25 pm

I am sorry if another user has already broached this idea. At the 2015 IMFAR International Meeting for Autism Research conference, more than one researcher presented studies which showed that about 10 percent of autists have "sexual and gender differences" while 10 percent of LGBT (mostly female-to-male transgender, but not exclusively) are autistic.

It would seem, then, that there is a connection between both segments of the overall population. When Aspies For Freedom was active, its leaders adopted many of the LGBT symbology (rainbow spectrum) and speech.

Therefore, why aren't both sides of this overlapping community building more bridges?


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