The Autism Separatism Discussion Thread

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graywyvern
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31 Jul 2017, 1:00 pm

Given that we now understand autism incidence as mostly if not entirely genetic, despite your presentation your ideas are not simply arrogant nonsense. It is obvious that in the present society, being autistic does not mean either survival advantage or even an ordinary chance of reproduction, so if you want to find out what it means as a different form of human life, the first thing to do is to try to help other autistics. I think it is a non-negligible possibility that there will be many fewer of us in the future (if any), so what other kind of society we might have built instead will hardly be relevant. Calling it "better" doesn't help at all. Organizing politically, as difficult as it sounds, is the only way that leads forward. It's not possible anymore, as it might once have been, to hide.


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31 Jul 2017, 1:55 pm

neuroadvanced wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The original poster only made two posts on this thread and never returned to this thread he started. In fact those two posts are the only two posts he has ever made on WP.

So the OP is for practical purposes, a troll.


I'm not a troll at all. I'm an autistic person who wants to see the right advancements made. I want to help you all. I wanted to keep the discussion going before but I can barely stand reading this website. I honestly don't see how you all can spend so much time on here reading these posts. The self hate and misery on here is unbearable. I wanted to put some money into the cause of helping us all but we can't even agree on basic aspects of what autism is. This site will just make autistic people feel worse about themselves.

I'm of majority Nigerian descent (a "black" person). I'm sure it will be controversial to say this but I honestly see many parallels between being autistic in America today and the plight of black people in the historical past. I'm sure that if the internet existed in the 1960's, there would of been a website just like this one. "wrongrace.com" where black people got together and self loathed about being black just as you all do on here with having autism. Stop it. If we want to, we can move past where we are at right now. My ancestors (I know for a fact that i'm descended from slaves) overcame being chained to trees and treated like animals. To being segregated and denied equal education.
Yet, here I am 200 years later with a nice house, money, and a good life. Their perseverance has paid off. So can ours.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. I do understand that some of us are low functioning autistic people. It's because autism is not a fully developed thing yet. We have to suffer today, for the autistic people of the future. In the future autistic people won't have to go through what we face today. People might of got their hands blown off trying to invent grenades, but eventually they did it. There is no one way to be. Autism is not a disorder.


You cant even keep track of what you yourself are talking about.

In the OP you were not being the autistic equivalent of Martin Luther King. Quite the opposite. You were being the autistic equivalent of Hitler. You were claiming that autistics are "the next stage in evolution" (ie that autistics are the master race).

And youre not the first person on WP to suggest that. The old "autism/aspergers is the next step in evolution" meme crops up every few months here.



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31 Jul 2017, 3:42 pm

There has been documented cases of people in history with many autistic traits. If they were autistic and we have always been here and I do believe that is true it makes harder to claim Autistic is a positive evolution of human.

Un and underemployment of autistics have been estimated between 80% and 90%. So the "pity parties" while often whining are also often honest descriptions of the real world lives of most autistic people.

I wholeheartedly agree with what the OP said about the problem of disagreement about defining autism. It is the biggest or one of the problems we have.

Superior race or not this is last thing I worry about these days. Attempts to eliminate us through the new eugentics or early behavioral therapies designed to intercept or the deflect infant's brains natural wiring itself to be autistic.


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neuroadvanced
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31 Jul 2017, 5:11 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
You cant even keep track of what you yourself are talking about.

In the OP you were not being the autistic equivalent of Martin Luther King. Quite the opposite. You were being the autistic equivalent of Hitler. You were claiming that autistics are "the next stage in evolution" (ie that autistics are the master race).

And youre not the first person on WP to suggest that. The old "autism/aspergers is the next step in evolution" meme crops up every few months here.


To clarify, my feelings on this do echo a hitler-esque approach more so than a Martin Luther King one. If we do break away from NT's I believe we won't just be "separate but equal" but the Master Race of the planet. So that's that.

And regarding the talk of evolution being dictated by the need to be adapted to better survive, I disagree. Apes can survive just fine in the wild why did we need to evolve into what we are now to "survive". We could of just stayed apes. Simple organisms have existed for millions of years just fine. No need for this much complexity from a survival standpoint, in fact greater complexity seems to cause more problems. Simple organisms create a balance with each other. We cause mass extinctions and destroy the natural environment we need to survive. I think DNA will just mutate over time whether there is a need or not. It just happens. And autism is one of those mutations. Autism is not a disorder.



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31 Jul 2017, 8:28 pm

neuroadvanced wrote:
EzraS wrote:
neuroadvanced wrote:
I may have misjudged the ratio of high functioning to low functioning autistic people. I was under the impression that 70% of those on the spectrum live normal lives with some moderate difficulties, and just don't fit in with neurotypicals/socially outcast. What percentage of people are like EzraS? people who need a babysitter and can't live own their own.


What difficulties are you referring to?


My personal experience with Autism is this.

I don't make facial expressions. At all. I work part time at a retail customer service desk just to get out of the house and practice interacting with people. I get asked repeatedly throughout the day by customers "Why don't you smile?" "Why are you always making that same face?" "You should smile". I don't make the proper amount of eye contact, don't make the right movements/use body language when interacting with people, which leads to co workers not wanting to interact with me. Everyone at my store is close friends and hang out after work sometimes. But people barely talk to me and only when they have to as part of the job. I experience complete social isolation. I'm able to do NT work tasks and am able to survive in an NT environment but I do not do well socially at all. If I try to put in effort to get to know people and go out of my way to be friendly, it is not reciprocated. it's like there is no connection between me and other people.

When I got sick earlier this year and was out of work for a week, no one cared. No one asked me how I was feeling when I got back or expressed happiness that I was back. It was some virus that spread to a few other people in the store, and when others got sick my co workers talked about them "Person X is sick, oh no" "Is person X better?" "Have you spoke to person x? I might stop by their house this afternoon and see how they are doing". When the sick co workers came back to work, people expressed happiness. They walked in the door and people were like "Person X!! ! ! your back! with a smile" and ran up to them and gave them a hug "Glad to have you back" the manager told them. That is the difference between being an NT and having Autism when it comes to social relations. The social effects of autism I experience in depth and have studied extensively.

What saves me from a much worse life is that my real source of income comes in a way where I do not have to interact with people, or rely on good social relations. I did that by design, realizing my disadvantages at a young age. If it did, I would be totally screwed, perhaps unable to survive on my own. I daytrade stocks for a living and make good money doing it. I sit in my home office on my computer and place stock trades, no face to face interaction with anyone, no dependence on other people liking me or wanting me around. I make six figures a year doing that and work a part time retail job at night/weekends just to have normal job where I interact with people.

As far as sensory issues, no amount of bright lights, sounds, objects moving affects me. I don't "stim" or anything like that. But I make weird movements. People will say things like "Why are you sitting like that" "You walk like an alien" "the way you picked up that cup was so weird" "why are you standing so stiff like that". Customers will comment that that I look mean, look mad, act too serious. Besides that my senses are all normal. I just feel different from NT's, do not like NT's and the way they behave, don't fit in with them, talk about different kinds of things, and am generally outcast from other people.

Does that qualify me as high functioning?


Sure. Up until now you hadn't described how autism affects you. Up until now it seemed like you were describing autism in an unrealistic way. But how does what you have described make you a more advanced being? How would a society of people like you function better socially? And I just mean in basic day to day living.

Another thing is that I have mostly been around autistic people my whole life (a lot of whom are high functioning). Basically an autistic microcosm. It doesn't seem particularly better to me. To me it boils down to people are still people. Some are nice and some are mean. Some are quiet and some are loud. Some are polite and some are rude. Some are popular and others are not. Some are alpha types and some are beta types etc.



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31 Jul 2017, 8:47 pm

neuroadvanced wrote:
Are you all content to wither away and waste what we've been given?

Ah, another one who likes to speak, so matter-of-factly..... We haven't ALL wasted what we've been given. We've had several MDs, on this site, several PhDs, several engineers, all kinds of scientists, several clergymen, etc.----would you REALLY consider that a waste? I mean, at least those people are doing something, for OTHERS!! What does a Day Trader / Wal-Mart employee do, to advance the world?

neuroadvanced wrote:
Autism is not a disorder.

You're lumping ALL of a kind of people together, again----to ALOT of ASDers, Autism IS a disorder, because their brains / lives are not "in-order".

neuroadvanced wrote:
It's because Autism is still in the early stages of development, and thus there will be issues. As an analogy, let's say I am building a new rocket design. After I finalize my design I will have to do some preliminary testing before I move forward with production. The first rocket I build might blow up on the launch pad (you) because I got something wrong. It could take years to refine my design, and in the process building rockets that explode in the air instead of making it into space (low functioning autistic people) before I get it right.

This is a very, VERY uneducated thing to say. I would bet, almost anything, that my grandfather, who was born in the 1800s, was an Aspie----and, I feel certain that my aunt (his daughter), who would've been 101-years-old this year, had she lived, was an Aspie----and, there's been plenty MORE people "of old", about whom have been speculated, they were ASDers; so, Ezra's generation is, IMO, NOWHERE NEAR "the early stages of development", of ASD.

neuroadvanced wrote:
...and if we simply branch off and do our own thing, we will eventually become our own race.

This, and the statement in the OP, that speaks-of a "superior race", just blows-my-mind, that they were written / thought-of, by a black guy. You've had a double-whammy, so-to-speak----you're an ASDer, and know what it's like for people to be thinking of you, as "less-than", because of that; and, since you're black, and if you're living in the U.S, I would think the chances are GREAT, that you've had MANY people thinking of you, as "less-than", because of THAT----so, why-in-the-WORLD would you be wishing it on anybody else, and thinking of THEM (NTs), as "less than"!?!

There isn't ONLY sob-stories, here----we've had MANY wonderful, intelligent conversations----but, this is a place we CAN have a whine, if we want to, and NOT have to worry about feeling "less-than", because most everybody here, is in the same boat.

You are NOT, by far, the FIRST one to come here, saying you want to help us----maybe you are one, in the first ONE HUNDRED (and that's not, maybe, much of an exaggeration)----and, you are nowhere NEAR the first one to come here, saying we should have our own town / country / society / whatever----but, here's a thought..... How 'bout you don't OFFER help, until you are ASKED, for it? Also, just how do you think a town / country / whatever could be run by a bunch of people, who, for the most part, can barely SPEAK to others, to rally others, to make decisions, with others (ie, regarding laws, and so-forth)?

There are MANY people here, who are activists, advocates, supporters, etc.----so, we've got this, thanks.....





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RubyWings91
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31 Jul 2017, 8:51 pm

My view on people with Asperger's and Autism are not superior to neurotypical people. We are just different. It may not be as appealing as the "New Species" idea, but in my opinion, it is just as, if not more important.

Firstly, your view of evolution as a directional phenomenon with intentional steps is misguided. Evolution is driven by what is best for survival at a given time and it is simply the best of random mutations that survive. While it is true that some things seem to advance over time, features often develop in roundabout ways,regress to previous states, useless ones (like vestigial organs) or just disappear. It does not work out that just because something is better to have in general, it is evolved. That is one of the reasons why our natural history is littered with extinctions. Even today, you can find examples species with traits that are not beneficial to them in the long run but exist nonetheless because of some other driving factor. One set of examples would be in the plumage and displays of many male birds, which are costly for energy and resources or make them easier targets for predators. These features are necessary to them though because the females are attracted to them and the only way to ensure survival to the next generation is to obtain a mate. So these features are selected for, despite all the issues they cause. Evolution is a far more randomized process than you give it credit for in this description for your argument.

The nature of evolution means that a new, better form of human isn't going to automatically develop over time. Some would argue that our current state of living, at least in developed countries would cause the opposite effect, an evolutionary stagnation due to factors such as the increased ease of survival and the loss of genetic diversity through the mixing of genes from genetically distinct groups.

There is no denying that people on the spectrum are different from the neurotypical population. It is natural to want to think that this means we are genetically superior...it is human nature to think we are the best and everything different from us is less but that does not necessarily make it true.

It is ta fact that there are some areas where we might have advantages over the average person, often most visible in the mild cases, where people can still be functional members of society, contributing a wide range of new ideas using our unique forms of intellect that can move society forward.

But we must not forget the other side of that coin. There are things about us that can work to our advantage or disadvantage depending on the situation and still others that cause outright problems for us that neurotypical people can easily overcome. An example of the prior is the level of focus we have when concentrating. Our level of focus may allow us to concentrate on specific tasks better than the average person but we may become so engrossed in our task at hand that we may miss some outside factor that could be important to what we are doing, like being so focused on our work that when the person we're working for starts discussing important details, we tune them as we work on what is in front of us and miss what they say.

Then there are things that are outright disadvantageous. I can think of no better example of this than the meltdown. If you are on the spectrum and have never had one, consider yourself lucky. What causes it, what happens during it and the preventative behavior we will take up to keep them from happening are all examples of what makes this so bad. If we become too stressed, it can trigger these meltdowns. These stresses can be caused by sensory overload (another disadvantage we have over NTs), social stresses and other factors. Once engaged in a meltdown, we can lose the ability to act in a calm, thoughtful manner, we react with uncontrollable, sometimes self harming behaviors. Anyone who's been on here long enough has at least seen some of the treads about them. Then, to avoid this issue, we come up with avoidance behaviors that cut us off from things that the neurotypical population takes for granted.

But, the fact that we are different is good. We represent an important part of the much needed variety among people that is needed to move forward, both as a society and as a species. Variety is necessary for the flexibility that leads to change. In this, I agree that we should embrace who we are.



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31 Jul 2017, 9:08 pm

^^^ excellent post



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31 Jul 2017, 9:44 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Ah, another one who likes to speak, so matter-of-factly..... We haven't ALL wasted what we've been given. We've had several MDs, on this site, several PhDs, several engineers, all kinds of scientists, several clergymen, etc.----would you REALLY consider that a waste? I mean, at least those people are doing something, for OTHERS!! What does a Day Trader / Wal-Mart employee do, to advance the world?


Until we put together a group effort with leadership and defined goals, our individual sacrifices are in vain. Just like with us black people, until Rosa Parks didn't give up her seat, until Martin Luther King rallied us together and the civil rights movement took shape, the overall black population didn't make progress. Individual black people had done things here and there before but not until we became fully organized and broadly worked together towards our goal, the overall population didn't benefit. Definitive action is required, of which I've seen none. An autistic town where we can get together, live together, and study autism and a way forward would be definitive action. If we pool our money together and buy some land in Idaho or something, we can start the process of making this happen. We need an official land area designated for autistic people.

Campin_Cat wrote:
neuroadvanced wrote:
Autism is not a disorder.

You're lumping ALL of a kind of people together, again----to ALOT of ASDers, Autism IS a disorder, because their brains / lives are not "in-order".


ok. I stated earlier that I may have misjudged the amount of low functioning autistics relative to the total amount of autistic people. But surely there are many many high functioning autistics, and the lower functioning ones will still be taken care, are still part of us, and will be respected.

Campin_Cat wrote:
This is a very, VERY uneducated thing to say. I would bet, almost anything, that my grandfather, who was born in the 1800s, was an Aspie----and, I feel certain that my aunt (his daughter), who would've been 101-years-old this year, had she lived, was an Aspie----and, there's been plenty MORE people "of old", about whom have been speculated, they were ASDers; so, Ezra's generation is, IMO, NOWHERE NEAR "the early stages of development", of ASD.


Humans have existed for 200,000 years. Civilizations are only 6,000 years old. So it took 194,000 years for humans to organize a civilization. So lets throw out a number and say if Autism has been around for 4,000 years that would still qualify as "Early stages of development".

Campin_Cat wrote:
neuroadvanced wrote:
...and if we simply branch off and do our own thing, we will eventually become our own race.

This, and the statement in the OP, that speaks-of a "superior race", just blows-my-mind, that they were written / thought-of, by a black guy. You've had a double-whammy, so-to-speak----you're an ASDer, and know what it's like for people to be thinking of you, as "less-than", because of that; and, since you're black, and if you're living in the U.S, I would think the chances are GREAT, that you've had MANY people thinking of you, as "less-than", because of THAT----so, why-in-the-WORLD would you be wishing it on anybody else, and thinking of THEM (NTs), as "less than"!?!


Every group of people so far throughout human history claiming to be a "superior race" have been misguided. Until now. The "Aryan Race" concept hitler came up with was dumb. A race of fully developed autistic people would for the first time in human history FINALLY ACTUALLY BE a superior race of people. Which was bound to happen eventually. Autism was inevitable. The current design of humans has inherent flaws that cannot be rectified. So a fork off from current humans was needed. We need to ensure it survives and thrives, protect it.

What I should have said is that we autistic people will END UP being a superior race. We are not yet. And I don't think it would be right for us to treat NT's bad/harm them like certain groups have done to other people in the past. We should simply separate and doing our own thing and leave NT's be. They go their way and we go ours. No need to fight them.

Campin_Cat wrote:
There isn't ONLY sob-stories, here----we've had MANY wonderful, intelligent conversations----but, this is a place we CAN have a whine, if we want to, and NOT have to worry about feeling "less-than", because most everybody here, is in the same boat.

That's fine, but now it's time to move on from whining on a back corner of the internet and advance our new race forward. Too much time has been wasted with no progress. Enough is enough.


Campin_Cat wrote:
You are NOT, by far, the FIRST one to come here, saying you want to help us----maybe you are one, in the first ONE HUNDRED (and that's not, maybe, much of an exaggeration)----and, you are nowhere NEAR the first one to come here, saying we should have our own town / country / society / whatever----but, here's a thought..... How 'bout you don't OFFER help, until you are ASKED, for it? Also, just how do you think a town / country / whatever could be run by a bunch of people, who, for the most part, can barely SPEAK to others, to rally others, to make decisions, with others (ie, regarding laws, and so-forth)?


I'm tired of seeing no progress being made, So I decided to come here and light a fire. So far the responses have been tepid at best. Truly disheartening. I thought we had more guts then that. Good thing my black ancestors didn't take the lazy unmotivated approach you all are or else I would be drinking out of a "coloreds only" water fountain.

Campin_Cat wrote:
There are MANY people here, who are activists, advocates, supporters, etc.----so, we've got this, thanks.....


Doesn't seem like it, I came here within the first few days this website, this forum was created. I was one of the first visitors to this website. And since day one exactly 0 progress has been made. The autistic community is in no better shape today then when this site started. We need a government, we need leadership, something needs to be done. Because the way things are now isn't cutting it.



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31 Jul 2017, 10:27 pm

soloha wrote:
^^^ excellent post


thank you



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01 Aug 2017, 1:47 am

For a community - if that is the right choice of word, who prides itself on difference, we have a long way to go in accepting 'difference' in the truest meaning of the word.

The OP's arrogance is not too far away from the mindset that was so prevalent here some years back. Many who have been unkindly towards him, would perhaps be wise to reflect on how their own views have taken time to mature and evolve.



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01 Aug 2017, 6:05 am

neuroadvanced wrote:
Doesn't seem like it, I came here within the first few days this website, this forum was created. I was one of the first visitors to this website.

Alas you didn't actually create your account until last month so you're always going to be considered a troll, as that's how internet communities generally view new accounts that come in with grandiose opinions at odds with the general tone of that community. There's nothing you can do about that, a large part of this community simply isn't going to take you seriously.



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01 Aug 2017, 6:37 am

neuroadvanced wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
You cant even keep track of what you yourself are talking about.

In the OP you were not being the autistic equivalent of Martin Luther King. Quite the opposite. You were being the autistic equivalent of Hitler. You were claiming that autistics are "the next stage in evolution" (ie that autistics are the master race).

And youre not the first person on WP to suggest that. The old "autism/aspergers is the next step in evolution" meme crops up every few months here.


To clarify, my feelings on this do echo a hitler-esque approach more so than a Martin Luther King one. If we do break away from NT's I believe we won't just be "separate but equal" but the Master Race of the planet. So that's that.

And regarding the talk of evolution being dictated by the need to be adapted to better survive, I disagree. Apes can survive just fine in the wild why did we need to evolve into what we are now to "survive". We could of just stayed apes. Simple organisms have existed for millions of years just fine. No need for this much complexity from a survival standpoint, in fact greater complexity seems to cause more problems. Simple organisms create a balance with each other. We cause mass extinctions and destroy the natural environment we need to survive. I think DNA will just mutate over time whether there is a need or not. It just happens. And autism is one of those mutations. Autism is not a disorder.


Yes, DNA mutates all of the time at random. That is not the issue.
The issue is what comes after the mutating. What comes after is natural selection. Nature picks which changes are advantageous to causing more offspring to survive in the next generation. That part is NOT random. Please grasp that basic concept. Its a free country. Youre free to try to dethrone Darwin if you choose. But you need to understand Darwin before you make a bid to over throw him.

Several species of Asian, and African great apes are all on the verge of extinction because one African ape was so successful at multiplying its numbers, and destroying the habitats of the other apes. That ape being man. So obviously the fact that the other apes were "doing fine" doesn't matter. Natural selection is doing them in because it has deployed a competitor against them (us).

If autistics were indeed "the next step in evolution" then we would see natural selection doing its thing to make that happen. Autistics would have more offspring survive to reproductive age then do NTs. Where do you see THAT? Nowhere. In fact you see the opposite. Autistics have fewer offspring per capita than do NTs.



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01 Aug 2017, 6:50 am

OK, a quick word about Autism being the next stage of evolution...

You must remember that science is never settled. It never truly proves anything, it merely mounts evidence of various types in support of hypotheses until we consider them theories, and further still until we consider them laws. Any single piece of data to the contrary is enough to completely shatter the theory and require a new paradigm or model from which to operate.

The problem is that there is the assumption that Mild(or high-functioning) Autism is wholly Genetic. I'd like to see some citations for that. It appears that there is a genetic component, but this does not completely preclude any environmental factors. Even if it was genetic, that does not mean all changes to your DNA are good changes. Some are silent changes, some will kill you. Some may impart some benefit(Sickle Cell Anemia is cited for this, though it's a sucky trade-off. Sure, your chance of developing Malaria is smaller, but your not going to live nearly as long as someone without), but there tends to be give and take.

I personally reject the idea that we are superior in any way, shape or form. I believe that we are all created equal (as human beings - I know some people have a plethora of gifts that far surpass others, but that doesn't make them a better human being). I think that pursuing this line of thought, of an Autistic Master Race, can only make things worse for us and others. We all need to work together, which means we need to take the high road. We need to be ambassadors to NT, to let them know we are different, that we "come in peace", and to curry understanding for our DISORDER(it is a disorder, I'm sorry).



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01 Aug 2017, 7:48 am

What if, what if, I'm like this because I'm a special kind of being set apart from the rest, like a stranger in a strange land?