Slowly starting to realize we don't feel empathy

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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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25 Nov 2017, 8:51 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
Like the OP, I would be interested to hear examples of autistics acting towards others in a truly empathetic manner.
I'm not convinced we can really do it, however much we feel as though we are empathetic.
I would love someone to demonstrate that we can.


Try reading the material I provided on the subject, at least one of them links to a study about autistic people and empathy. You could also do a Google search for neurological research on the subject, the information is out there if you care to look for it yourself. It has been demonstrated already.



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25 Nov 2017, 8:57 pm

I've definitely improved on my mind blindness, but I feel like it has only made me more paranoid. I mean I still have no idea what to expect of people, but I remind myself of this fact more frequently.

I think a few people in this thread have the wrong idea of what empathy really is, and how it differs from sympathy. I could probably fake it if I thought long and hard on one specific emotion, but that would be a lot of work for just one specific instance.


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cato4797
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25 Nov 2017, 9:00 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
Yeah. I've been slowly realising the same thing :(
Only took me a few decades to get there :roll:

My feeling is that there are ways you can give back to people, or if not to individual people then to society, even if they're not the usual ways people express empathy.

I'm thinking of how autists have contributed to advances in maths and science and information technology, or maybe provided healing through art and music, even if they had trouble relating to people on a personal level. Einstein would have to be the classic example.

There must be a reason why genetics throws out the occasional autistic. Maybe that's what those of us who are high functioning are for :?


I mean my main worry is how it impacts relationships with other people. I've read about how NT spouses are impacted and it's largely has to do with our inability to empathize. I can't do that to anyone knowing how I am without trying to fix it.



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25 Nov 2017, 9:07 pm

TheAP wrote:
Not true. Every autistic is different. Though I may not always be able to feel others' feelings viscerally (I don't know what the "normal" is like for that), I care about others and I try to help or encourage them when I can. I'm not really mind-blind, either; I am aware that others have thoughts and feelings, even if I don't know what they are. If I come across as self-centered, it's because I don't think people should be allowed to hurt me. And having no real friendships doesn't mean you don't feel empathy, but rather that you have trouble connecting with others because of social impairments. I had no truly close friends for a long time, but now I do. I bet you do care for others, even if you have trouble showing it. If you didn't, you wouldn't care about how you came across.


Ok, first of all I actually have quite a few friends. Second, I'm not talking about caring for other people. That's not empathy at all. Empathy is not being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and viscerally understand how they're feeling and what they're going through. You can care/sympathize with someone who you don't empathize with. They're not the same. I'm a very sympathetic person, as you seem to be as well.



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25 Nov 2017, 9:11 pm

Clakker wrote:
cato4797 wrote:
We are completely unable to empathize with other people. At all. I'm slowly beginning to truly realize. Every friendship or relationship/connection I have isn't real, its fake. We're like socially impaired sociopaths.

Even worse, because of our mind blindness, we're so unaware and so self-centered that most of us don't even realize the extent of the problem. When we're not coming off that way, its faked, and with no emotional commitment.

Prove me wrong. I want to be proven wrong, and I want to be shown if there's been some success in overcoming this...


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You’re catastrophizing. I’m thinking this is still about the girl you’ve been posting about.


While yes, that was the catalyst for much of this, it has made me take a second look at a lot of the relationships in my life. I have begun to see a pattern in this area that extends also to my friends and even to my family in this area. They were problems I noticed and was aware of before but not as acutely as I am now, and I've begun to take a more serious note of the problems that could be the basis for these issues.



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25 Nov 2017, 9:13 pm

TheAP wrote:
MrsPeel wrote:
Like the OP, I would be interested to hear examples of autistics acting towards others in a truly empathetic manner.
I'm not convinced we can really do it, however much we feel as though we are empathetic.
I would love someone to demonstrate that we can.

Well, yesterday a friend on another forum posted a thread saying he felt like he didn't have value. I replied to the thread reassuring him that he did have value and reminding him of the good things about himself.

If you're looking for an example other than myself, I have another friend who is undiagnosed but likely autistic, and when I tell him about my problems he is always supportive and caring. A more famous example is Temple Grandin, an autistic who advocates for livestock to be treated more humanely.


Like I said, that's more sympathy and not empathy.



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25 Nov 2017, 9:23 pm

Do you react when an animal yelps in pain? When a baby cries? If you see someone get injured? Seeing two people reunite at the airport? That is empathy. It may be more difficult for those of us with autism to define and express what we feel, but that doesn't mean no empathy. I am hyperempathetic, as I have also seen in other people here. I can sometimes come across as not having much sympathy because I never know the right thing to say if someone is upset, but I feel sympathy. I'm sure there are genuine sociopaths with no empathy here, the same as the general population, but not everyone. Having no empathy as a defining trait of autism is a myth perpetuated by non-autistic psychologists who only look at the outside.



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25 Nov 2017, 9:35 pm

cato4797 wrote:
I mean my main worry is how it impacts relationships with other people. I've read about how NT spouses are impacted and it's largely has to do with our inability to empathize. I can't do that to anyone knowing how I am without trying to fix it.


Yes, I'm struggling with the something simailar, since I fully realised the effect my ASD has on my kids.
Although in my case I know I can feel people's pain, it's just the external actions or voicing of empathy that escape me.



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25 Nov 2017, 10:15 pm

I don't feel empathy, I think it.
And that's not wrong or lesser. In fact it means I have to make the conscious choice to be empathetic, so I think it at least shows I care.

I can't think sympathy, I can only feel it, sometimes.
Sympathy is extremely rare for me and I find it hard to cope with, presumably because I lack the practice. It makes me feel helpless and intensely connected to the other person.

We are all different.



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25 Nov 2017, 10:36 pm

We = you. You do not speak for everyone. If you have problems with empathy, that is speaking for you. Lots of other Autistics do not have this problem and it is not part of the diagnosis.

Please stop spreading this stereotype and do not use "we" when you write about yourself.


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26 Nov 2017, 12:45 am

cato4797 wrote:
TheAP wrote:
MrsPeel wrote:
Like the OP, I would be interested to hear examples of autistics acting towards others in a truly empathetic manner.
I'm not convinced we can really do it, however much we feel as though we are empathetic.
I would love someone to demonstrate that we can.

Well, yesterday a friend on another forum posted a thread saying he felt like he didn't have value. I replied to the thread reassuring him that he did have value and reminding him of the good things about himself.

If you're looking for an example other than myself, I have another friend who is undiagnosed but likely autistic, and when I tell him about my problems he is always supportive and caring. A more famous example is Temple Grandin, an autistic who advocates for livestock to be treated more humanely.


Like I said, that's more sympathy and not empathy.

Not even sympathy - sometimes it can just be cognitive ethics, producing the same behaviour. I can't prove you wrong, as I have no empathy either. I see that quote about responding apparently empathetically as one of ethics. I function in this way. I have philosophically decided, though over ten years of research, that this is the correct way to behave. Thus, I am following my ethics when I respond in a kindly way toward others. I don't feel anything for them, and I was always under the impression that empathy was an emotion.
racheypie666 wrote:
I don't feel empathy, I think it.
And that's not wrong or lesser. In fact it means I have to make the conscious choice to be empathetic, so I think it at least shows I care.

Yep, me too. I see this again as ethics. I can understand these things cognitively, and have chosen to respond in a kind manner. I cannot feel the emotions involved. I'm not sure if I think that's "lesser" or not. Most of the time I suppose I do see this as lesser, because it involves an inability. The inability to feel the emotions.
starcats wrote:
Do you react when an animal yelps in pain? When a baby cries? If you see someone get injured? Seeing two people reunite at the airport? That is empathy. It may be more difficult for those of us with autism to define and express what we feel, but that doesn't mean no empathy. I am hyperempathetic, as I have also seen in other people here. I can sometimes come across as not having much sympathy because I never know the right thing to say if someone is upset, but I feel sympathy. I'm sure there are genuine sociopaths with no empathy here, the same as the general population, but not everyone. Having no empathy as a defining trait of autism is a myth perpetuated by non-autistic psychologists who only look at the outside.

Firstly simply having no empathy does not make someone a sociopath. This is only one facet of that condition and it is very different to someone who simply does not understand empathy.
Secondly, those circumstances you describe can be understood without empathy or sympathy. The animal yelping or the baby crying indicates a problem - likely, also indicating that that animal or baby is experiencing some form of suffering. If someone was to believe philosophically that relieving the suffering of other to be ethically correct, they would respond cognitively to help alleviate suffering, because that is part of their ethics. There doesn't have to be any feelings involved.
As for psychologists, it is said that alexithymia is significantly higher in autistics than the general population and that can create this effect. Ergo, they see a lack of empathy more in autistic people and make that connection.


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26 Nov 2017, 1:00 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Speak for yourself. It's OK to say "I don't feel empathy" if that is your truth, that's fine. Don't say "we".

Some of us are capable of empathy and emotional connection with others. If you are not, that's your thing. I'm not a sociopath, so I don't appreciate being lumped in with them.


This.

I am so f*****g sick of hearing society saying how we lack empathy, now even Aspies are saying it!

I have strong empathy. And anyway, NTs only seem to feel empathy for those that experience the same thing as them, hence why Aspies get so misunderstood by them.

God I am sick and tired of hearing about this f*****g lack of empathy BS. I nearly threw my phone across the room when I saw this garbage thread.

The more I see s**t like this, the more I want to delete my WP account.


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26 Nov 2017, 1:06 am

Quote:
. And empathy is one of those words that no one seems to agree on how to define, but to me it just means caring about someone's feelings


So even the NTs who have bullied you or me have actually cared about our feelings? :?


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26 Nov 2017, 1:08 am

Do you wanna be proven wrong? Very well. Examples are too varied, and do not define anyone's actions but my own. Or yours to anyone else's. Or anyone else's towards another. That's my answer; everyone is different.
In my case, this isn't much of an issue. I'm not one of the alexithymiac autistics, and it's more about maturity issue for me.
Yet I have some fulfillments, and had fulfilled another else's -- internally and externally. Even if it's tricky and inconsistent, I do care and I found some ways to act on it.
And, I won't speak for anyone nor tell the story of what I did.

But here's the thing: Empathy is a two way thing. And we're the minority.
Do you think that empathy is a one-sided thing exclusive for allistics could only fulfill and expect?
Do you think an NT would tend to know how to emphasize autistics given with what they react and expect to those who do things differently, or unaware that another party is different? Not just between neurologies, but also between humans with different backgrounds and upbringing. Do try and consider this.

If it's about body language, tone, and appropriateness, consider the factors of culture and social rules.
If it's about actions, consider the upbringing, maturity, the circumstances, and awareness of it.
If it's about feelings, consider one's experiences -- their own stories, their perception, their conditions, their past experiences, whatnot.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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26 Nov 2017, 1:10 am

Joe90 wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Speak for yourself. It's OK to say "I don't feel empathy" if that is your truth, that's fine. Don't say "we".

Some of us are capable of empathy and emotional connection with others. If you are not, that's your thing. I'm not a sociopath, so I don't appreciate being lumped in with them.


This.

I am so f*****g sick of hearing society saying how we lack empathy, now even Aspies are saying it!

I have strong empathy. And anyway, NTs only seem to feel empathy for those that experience the same thing as them, hence why Aspies get so misunderstood by them.

God I am sick and tired of hearing about this f*****g lack of empathy BS. I nearly threw my phone across the room when I saw this garbage thread.

The more I see s**t like this, the more I want to delete my WP account.


Coming here since the election has been especially frustrating. There seem to be more trolls and also just generally people seem to feel free now to say awful things that they would have kept to themselves before, because bigotry and awfulness have become normalized. I think they call it the Trump Effect.

Earlier today I was participating in a thread where people were trying to argue that sex trafficking children is not inherently abusive, especially if the child "consents" to it. 8O

That just seems to be how it is around here now.



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26 Nov 2017, 1:21 am

the_phoenix wrote:
Speak for yourself.
I feel empathy.


So do I, and so do many of the members here.

OP I wonder if you are a young male in your 20s? That group tends to provide some of our least empathetic members, but I think it is more of an immaturity thing than anything to do with ASD, and there are some significant exceptions in that age group who do show considerable empathy here, though they seem to be a minority in that group.

The least empathetic NTs I know are young males too, so it may be a gender plus and immaturity thing that improves later on with more experience of life. Our older males here generally show quite a lot of empathy, and Aunt Blabby is a star!