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Spiderpig
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07 Sep 2018, 5:45 pm

green0star wrote:
There's no need to compare apple to oranges.


There’s no need to call a perfectly sound comparison an apples-to-oranges one.

green0star wrote:
If one wants to wait for someone special what's wrong with that???


No more and no less than if someone wants to wait for any of the other things I mentioned, and infinitely many more conceivable ones. But I wasn’t arguing that there’s anything wrong with wanting to wait—I was arguing that there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to wait. I don’t want to wait; I’ve waited so far only because I had no other choice. Being told it’s always better to wait makes me want even less to keep waiting, in addition to making me want to throw up. No, before you say it, hiring a prostitute doesn’t count in my book, other than as a pathetic waste of money, even if I could afford it, which I can’t.

green0star wrote:
It doesn't have to be a means to justify "oh I'm gonna deprive myself of whatever because of this significance".


Maybe it doesn’t “have to be”, but it is.


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08 Sep 2018, 8:03 am

I re-read your earlier post (in full), as well as the one immediately above, and it sounds to me as though your problem is that you view sex as a one-way thing; it's telling that all of the pleasures you compared it to in the previous post are all solitary ones.

This is an understandable mistake, and one I made myself when I was a little younger; it's an especially easy mistake for an Aspie to make, and even more so given that this is the conception of sex sold to the masses in the media.

The trouble is that it's mistaken; the only circumstance in which sex is a one-way experience is in the case of the prostitute whom you rightly despise. I guarantee you that even if you do ever get sex, you won't be satisfied with the experience until it's about the woman AS WELL AS yourself. And no woman, other than a prostitute or one of pathologically low self-esteem will agree to have sex with you unless she feels that she is valued for her own sake rather than as an object to be used to boost YOUR self esteem.



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10 Sep 2018, 6:54 pm

Cloudflare, … splitting post, … etc.

Prometheus18 wrote:
I re-read your earlier post (in full), as well as the one immediately above, and it sounds to me as though your problem


Before embarking on the endeavor to find out what my problem is, did it occur to you that the fact that I, being more than half again your age, don’t want to keep putting off my first sexual experience in the name of anything, as opposed to being glad that, unlike you, I’ve kept my “purity” for all these years, is maybe not a problem?

Prometheus18 wrote:
is that you view sex as a one-way thing; it's telling that all of the pleasures you compared it to in the previous post are all solitary ones.


It’s telling, but not in the way you think. It means I have a hard time thinking up non-solitary activities, because being alone is basically the only state I know.

I don’t think this is relevant. Treasuring your virginity is still a fancy way to say you’re depriving yourself of some experiences. The fact that those are shared experiences only means you’re also depriving those who would otherwise be your sexual partners of a valuable experience, but I didn’t mention this because I fully accept you don’t owe anyone sex and I’d rather not open the can of worms about entitlement.


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Spiderpig
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10 Sep 2018, 6:56 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
This is an understandable mistake, and one I made myself when I was a little younger; it's an especially easy mistake for an Aspie to make, and even more so given that this is the conception of sex sold to the masses in the media.


Well, I’m much older than you. Even if I wasted most of my life so far and you made exceptionally good use of yours, you shouldn’t assume you’re ahead of me in everything, should you? I didn’t get any sexual experience myself, but I’ve spent longer thinking about these issues and reading and hearing what others have to say about them than you have been a postpubescent human. You don’t have to teach me that sex is something two or more people do together and not something a person (traditionally a man) does to another (traditionally a woman). I’ve been fully aware of this for a number of years big enough that it still feels like an eternity at your age. The thing is, it doesn’t change my conclusions.

Also, I have a brain, too. Don’t assume any disagreement with you means I’m a mindless slave to the media. It’s particularly funny in my case, since very few people here may have grown up more sheltered from the media, and from peer pressure, than me. If anything, I was more exposed to traditional ideas about marriage and virginity—but they didn’t bother me much back then, because sex was completely alien to me. Now I’m an adult, at least physically and (sort of) legally, and want to claim ownership of my body, and don’t take kindly to others insisting on telling me what I must or must not want and that I have a problem if I want something else. What I want is my business alone.


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Spiderpig
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10 Sep 2018, 6:58 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
The trouble is that it's mistaken; the only circumstance in which sex is a one-way experience is in the case of the prostitute whom you rightly despise.


Wrong—I don’t despise prostitutes. I admire most of them; I think they’re interesting and often very brave people. What I despise is the idea of hiring them, because their services are not what I want.

Prometheus18 wrote:
I guarantee you that even if you do ever get sex, you won't be satisfied with the experience until it's about the woman AS WELL AS yourself.


You can drop that until. The experiences I’ve wanted all along are about the woman as well. This doesn’t mean I have to wait for marriage, or for a committed relationship, however.

Prometheus18 wrote:
And no woman, other than a prostitute or one of pathologically low self-esteem will agree to have sex with you unless she feels that she is valued for her own sake rather than as an object to be used to boost YOUR self esteem.


That’s basically a pile of empty buzzwords to me. Firstly, I don’t give a s**t about self-esteem, probably because I’ve been endlessly tormented by my parents and psychologists demanding that I have a high self-esteem and chastising me for having it low. It worked just as wonderfully as you can expect and helped me waste obscene amounts of time that I could have used instead to focus on what matters: achievement. That’s what gives you a reason to have high self-esteem, if you absolutely must have it and show it.

Secondly, she’d be “using” me just as much as I “used” her. We’re assuming she actually wants to have sex with me and enjoys it, aren’t we?, because otherwise I have no business having sex with her at all.

You can’t value someone before you know them, so how much or how little we valued each other would have to be decided after we got to know each other, regardless of the way we did that.


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Prometheus18
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11 Sep 2018, 9:02 am

Quote:

Before embarking on the endeavor to find out what my problem is, did it occur to you that the fact that I, being more than half again your age, don’t want to keep putting off my first sexual experience in the name of anything, as opposed to being glad that, unlike you, I’ve kept my “purity” for all these years, is maybe not a problem?


The problem isn't that you want to lose your virginity; it's that (correct me if I'm wrong) you want to lose your virginity qua virginity: that is to say, it sounds as though you'd be willing to have sex with any woman - perhaps provided that she doesn't have elephantiasis - merely for the sake of losing your virginity. This implies that you have no regard for the person of the woman - and, perhaps more importantly, for your own person and values. It's the difference between a gourmet and a glutton. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, however.

Quote:
It’s telling, but not in the way you think. It means I have a hard time thinking up non-solitary activities, because being alone is basically the only state I know.


I assure you that this is true of me just as much as of you; I've never had any friends nor even BEEN ON a date. The difference is, I've never sought those things for their own sake: I've only ever wanted a friendship with someone I deeply valued and the same for a date. Not having ever met anyone I DEEPLY valued, I've avoided those things.

Quote:
and want to claim ownership of my body, and don’t take kindly to others insisting on telling me what I must or must not want and that I have a problem if I want something else. What I want is my business alone.



This is the fallacy of the deconstructionists. I've never told you or anyone else what they MUST want in relation to sex, and never will; I've only told them what they SHOULD want. I think to want sex with any bimbo who offers it is something neither you nor anyone else should want. You're free to ignore my opinion, however, and I wouldn't dream of imposing it on you even if I could.

Quote:
Wrong—I don’t despise prostitutes. I admire most of them; I think they’re interesting and often very brave people. What I despise is the idea of hiring them, because their services are not what I want.


This is partly what led me to conclude that you have a one-way view of sex. If you're desperate to lose your virginity and yet don't wish to do so with a prostitute (I'm not saying you should want to), then the only possible explanations are that you either want to save your virginity for someone you value - which you've told me isn't the case, or that you want the bragging rights of being able to say that a woman CHOSE to have sex with you, in which case the desire is to TAKE something from her, and only at most incidentally to GIVE something in return.

Quote:
It worked just as wonderfully as you can expect and helped me waste obscene amounts of time that I could have used instead to focus on what matters: achievement. That’s what gives you a reason to have high self-esteem, if you absolutely must have it and show it.



I agree entirely, but I don't see how having sex with a woman you despise - or are indifferent to - can be considered an achievement.

Quote:
Secondly, she’d be “using” me just as much as I “used” her. We’re assuming she actually wants to have sex with me and enjoys it, aren’t we?, because otherwise I have no business having sex with her at all.


This isn't a relationship between two HUMAN BEINGS, but between two animals, and no matter how much you tell yourself you're fine with that, your mind - one might say your spirit - will rebel.

Quote:

You can’t value someone before you know them, so how much or how little we valued each other would have to be decided after we got to know each other, regardless of the way we did that.



If you mean "know" in the sense of "be acquainted with", then what you're saying is vacuously true; if, as implied, you mean it in the biblical sense, then it's certainly not true.



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11 Sep 2018, 10:36 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
The problem isn't that you want to lose your virginity; it's that (correct me if I'm wrong) you want to lose your virginity qua virginity: that is to say, it sounds as though you'd be willing to have sex with any woman - perhaps provided that she doesn't have elephantiasis - merely for the sake of losing your virginity.


I don’t really care for the concept of virginity. You can give a fancy name to the lack of any other particular experience. I want to have sex. Since that involves losing my virginity, I want to lose it, but I could really do without those labels designed to make the lack of an experience look like a good thing. I think it’s a bad thing.


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Spiderpig
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11 Sep 2018, 10:38 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
This implies that you have no regard for the person of the woman


Wrong. I want to do it with a woman who wants to do it with me. I have every regard for pleasing her sexually, and maybe in other ways depending on how our relationship evolved. But as long as we were comfortable with each other, any way to get to know each other would be good—perhaps by having sex.


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Spiderpig
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11 Sep 2018, 10:39 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
- and, perhaps more importantly, for your own person and values.


My own person and values say it’d be a wonderful thing.

Prometheus18 wrote:
It's the difference between a gourmet and a glutton. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, however.


I don’t care about that difference. Sue me for being hungry.


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11 Sep 2018, 10:41 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I assure you that this is true of me just as much as of you; I've never had any friends nor even BEEN ON a date. The difference is, I've never sought those things for their own sake: I've only ever wanted a friendship with someone I deeply valued and the same for a date. Not having ever met anyone I DEEPLY valued, I've avoided those things.


Feel free to keep making up distinctions without differences if that makes you feel superior.

Prometheus18 wrote:
This is the fallacy of the deconstructionists. I've never told you or anyone else what they MUST want in relation to sex, and never will; I've only told them what they SHOULD want.


It’s the same for me. I want what I want; I don’t care what you think I should want.


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Spiderpig
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11 Sep 2018, 10:42 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I think to want sex with any bimbo who offers it is something neither you nor anyone else should want.


Sue me.

Prometheus18 wrote:
You're free to ignore my opinion, however, and I wouldn't dream of imposing it on you even if I could.


I hope so.

Prometheus18 wrote:
This is partly what led me to conclude that you have a one-way view of sex.


Conclude whatever you want.


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11 Sep 2018, 10:44 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
If you're desperate to lose your virginity


I’m desperate to have sex, sex and more sex, occasionally stopping to have sex. Sue me.

Prometheus18 wrote:
and yet don't wish to do so with a prostitute (I'm not saying you should want to),


In fact, in the unlikely event that a prostitute wanted to have a normal sexual relationship with me, I wouldn’t have a problem with the fact that she’s a prostitute. What I don’t want is to hire her.

Prometheus18 wrote:
then the only possible explanations are


Because you say so….


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11 Sep 2018, 10:46 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
that you either want to save your virginity for someone you value - which you've told me isn't the case, or that you want the bragging rights of being able to say that a woman CHOSE to have sex with you,


Excuse me, what I did with her would be a matter between her and me. I’d be more interested in being intimate and developing mutual trust with her than with any audience I might conceivably brag in front of. So no bragging, thank you very much. But you can bet I’d like a lot the fact that she freely chose to have sex with me.

Prometheus18 wrote:
in which case the desire is to TAKE something from her, and only at most incidentally to GIVE something in return.


It’s amazing the lengths you’ll go to so you can make something inherently beautiful look bad. I want to take pleasure and possibly other things in exchange for pleasure and possibly other things. Giving something in return is essential, not incidental. If not, ask her why she wants to have sex with me.


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11 Sep 2018, 10:51 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I agree entirely, but I don't see how having sex with a woman you despise - or are indifferent to - can be considered an achievement.


Because it wouldn’t be with a woman I despise or am indifferent to—that’s why.

Prometheus18 wrote:
This isn't a relationship between two HUMAN BEINGS, but between two animals,


Human beings are animals. And they don’t stop being human for having sex without your blessing.

Prometheus18 wrote:
and no matter how much you tell yourself you're fine with that, your mind - one might say your spirit - will rebel.


Bring it on.


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11 Sep 2018, 10:56 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
If you mean "know" in the sense of "be acquainted with", then what you're saying is vacuously true;


And therefore it’s true.

Prometheus18 wrote:
if, as implied, you mean it in the biblical sense, then it's certainly not true.


Wrong “implication”. I don’t use know as an obfuscated euphemism for have sex with. I say have sex with.


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12 Sep 2018, 4:28 am

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
I watched a video of a middle school health teacher once and the reason that they said people who haven’t been in a relationship, are virgins, etc. are humiliated and looked down upon is merely a result of normies being jealous.

That's a common thing to say but it's often wishful thinking to make the victims of bullying feel better about themselves. Yes, bullies can envy their victims. No, not all bullies envy their victims.
Another common and similar thing is that some people like telling teen girls who are bullied by teen boys that he does it because he likes her. In many cases that's not true. He bullies her because she's an easy victim or because peer-pressure, but some people think she'll feel better if they tell her it's because he is into her.

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
They have already lost that part of them, and they envy the people with enough strength and willpower to not give in to temptation. As a result, these people make fun of you, belittle you, and try to do everything in their power to sort of fall into that trap so they can feel better about themselves.

That may be true for some, especially some religious people. However not everyone thinks that you lose a part of yourself if you lose your virginity (and especially not every man). Also, some people who are virgins and not because they're religious and want to wait until marriage, are virgins because they can not attract anyone or are too shy to try.
As someone who lives in a much less religious place than the USA I can tell you that virgin shaming still exists if hardly anyone equates being a virgin to having much will power and if not giving in to temptation isn't the goal.

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
In the same talk, the teacher also mentioned how you will never regret not making a bad decision.

This is assuming that having sex unless you are married always is a bad decision.
In reality not only doing something can be a bad decision, but not doing something also can be.
Now of course no ones life is ruined because they decided against having sex in some situation. Having sex itself won't usually have a mayor positive impact on someones future. But gathering life experience can and this may or may not include sex.
And lastly, for some virgins it is not a decision but a lack of opportunity.

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
One isn’t going to look back later in life and say, “You know, I wish I had done more drugs when I was younger,” or “I wish I would have been in more short-term, shallow relationships with people just so I could lose my virginity.” Nobody says that.

I've not met people who regret the drug thing, but yes there are people who regret not doing the short-term relationship thing.
Because with experience can come confidence and skills. Some think they'd be better off now if they had gathered experience (Short term relationship can not only lead to sexual experience but also relationship experience, social skills, knowledge about what they themselves like in a partner, skills in attracting a partner etc., especially if one is socially isolated in more ways than just not having a relationship) instead of letting life pass them by.
They don't necessarily regret that they didn't have 50 such relationships but that they didn't even have 1 or 2.

StampySquiddyFan wrote:
It is a great thing to be a non-conformist because when you look back to your past, you won’t always have these sorts of regrets about your life. You didn’t take the risk now to try and fit in or to get high, but that makes your decision pay off so much more in the future. Never be ashamed of that.

Not making bad decisions is good. However, for some people it goes further than not taking risks and not getting drunk and having sex orgies with strangers instead of studying for exams. It is possible to regret not doing something and not only to regret doing something. What you regret depends on how many thing that harmed you, you did and on how many positive experiences you simply missed out.



Of course virgin shaming is bad and people shouldn't do it, but there's no use in only acknowledging a small part of the reason why virgin shaming takes place or why people remain virgins.