Sleep Cycle

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I have been tracking and analyzing my sleep cycle for the past 6 months using a Fitbit. I will make the following observations:

A current website says:

Usually sleepers pass through four stages: 1, 2, 3, and REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. These stages progress cyclically from 1 through REM then begin again with stage 1. A complete sleep cycle takes an average of 90 to 110 minutes, with each stage lasting between 5 to 15 minutes. The first sleep cycles each night have relatively short REM sleeps and long periods of deep sleep but later in the night, REM periods lengthen and deep sleep time decreases.

Source: Stages of Sleep and Sleep Cycles

Another website says:

In healthy adults, sleep typically begins with NREM sleep. The pattern of clear rhythmic alpha activity associated with wakefulness gives way to N1, the first stage of sleep, which is defined by a low-voltage, mixed-frequency pattern. The transition from wakefulness to N1 occurs seconds to minutes after the start of the slow eye movements seen when a person first begins to nod off. This first period of N1 typically lasts just one to seven minutes. The second stage, or N2, which is signaled by sleep spindles and/or K complexes in the EEG recording, comes next and generally lasts 10 to 25 minutes. As N2 sleep progresses, there is a gradual appearance of the high-voltage, slow-wave activity characteristic of N3, the third stage of NREM sleep. This stage, which generally lasts 20 to 40 minutes, is referred to as "slow-wave," "delta," or "deep" sleep. As NREM sleep progresses, the brain becomes less responsive to external stimuli, and it becomes increasingly difficult to awaken an individual from sleep.

Following the N3 stage of sleep, a series of body movements usually signals an "ascent" to lighter NREM sleep stages. Typically, a 5- to 10-minute period of N2 precedes the initial REM sleep episode. REM sleep comprises about 20 to 25 percent of total sleep in typical healthy adults.

NREM sleep and REM sleep continue to alternate through the night in a cyclical fashion. Most slow-wave NREM sleep occurs in the first part of the night; REM sleep episodes, the first of which may last only one to five minutes, generally become longer through the night. During a typical night, N3 sleep occupies less time in the second cycle than the first and may disappear altogether from later cycles. The average length of the first NREM-REM sleep cycle is between 70 and 100 minutes; the average length of the second and later cycles is about 90 to 120 minutes. The reason for such a specific cycling pattern of NREM and REM sleep across the night is unknown. Some scientists speculate that specific sequences of NREM and REM sleep optimize both physical and mental recuperation as well as some aspects of memory consolidation that occur during sleep, but this has not been confirmed.

Source: Natural Patterns of Sleep

So my main observation is that I do not have a typical sleep cycle. It definitely is not a 90-110 minute sleep cycle transitioning through the various stages of sleep. Is this an Aspie thing? I don't know! Is this due to the fact that I experienced a near death event at a very early age that lead to "REM intrusion"? Again I don't know. [people with near death experiences are more likely to have a sleep-wake system where the boundaries between sleep and wakefulness are not as clearly regulated, and the REM (rapid eye movement) state of sleep can intrude into normal wakeful consciousness. Examples of this REM intrusion include waking up and feeling that you cannot move, having sudden muscle weakness in your legs, and hearing sounds just before falling asleep or just after waking up that other people can’t hear.]

So what do I observe? First of all, I transition into deep sleep very quickly. Generally I lay down, close my eyes and I transition almost directly into Deep Sleep N3 stage. For example, last night I was in Deep Sleep for 102 minutes during the first 150 minutes of my sleep. After that I began experiencing REM sleep and my Deep Sleep state did not reoccur. My total REM sleep was 64 minutes. Deep sleep repairs my body. If I have a cold or injury, my Deep sleep goes up. REM sleep helps me recover my mind. It vents stress energy, consolidates memory and resets my mind each day.

This is not a singular occurrence. It is my normal sleep cycle. For example on Friday night, I had 85 minutes of Deep Sleep within the first 120 minutes after which I began to experience some REM cycles. During the rest of the night I experienced 103 minutes of REM.

One website claimed that individuals that do not have typical sleep cycles experience severe problems from lack of proper sleep. No, that is wrong. I sleep well and am very refreshed in the morning.

Another anomaly is that I experience significant Deep Sleep and REM sleep even though I am 70 years old. In most individuals these two stages radically decline in old age.

Anyone tracking your sleep - what do you see? Does your sleep cycle match a typical sleep cycle?

Last edited by jimmy m on 21 Aug 2019, 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'll have to try that......

I have a terrible and irregular sleep cycle. I would like to get one of these fitbit trackers but they seem to be fairly expensive. (I had two official sleep studies done and concluded they they were both bogus insurance scams of no actual value.)

I have clear episodes through the day of what I call "REM while awake." Never been able to find that experience described accurately anywhere.

Interesting stuff. What kind of a sensor do you need to do this kind of monitoring?

I'm not sure that the % of REM sleep falls appreciably with age. According to this meta-analysis it's only a very slight drop and it goes back up again in old age.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1978369/

There is a condition called REM Intrusion. It is a blurring between REM state and the wide awake state. During the REM phase of sleep, the muscles in the body usually enter a state of temporary paralysis. In a person with RBD (REM sleep behavior disorder), this paralysis is incomplete or even completely absent, so the person "acts out" their dreams, sometimes in dramatic or violent ways. There is a higher probability of experiencing REM Intrusion in individuals that experience near death events.

But there is another state that no one has described. I will refer to it as "REM splitting". I can split my mind in two - one in the REM state and the other in the Awake state. The REM state is extremely fast. This state can happen when I am in REM during sleep, but it can also happen when I am wide awake. In the latter case, I put my body on autopilot and let the REM state run wild. It is quite a gift.

I use a Fitbit Versa but there are several types of Fitbits that perform sleep monitoring. Such as the Fitbit Charge 3, Fitbit Inspire HR, Fitbit Alta HR



This observation comes from several articles on the internet. For example:

Along with the physical changes that occur as we get older, changes to our sleep patterns are a part of the normal aging process. As people age they tend to have a harder time falling asleep and more trouble staying asleep than when they were younger. It is a common misconception that sleep needs decline with age. In fact, research demonstrates that our sleep needs remain constant throughout adulthood. So, what's keeping seniors awake? Changes in the patterns of our sleep - what specialists call "sleep architecture" - occur as we age and this may contribute to sleep problems. Sleep occurs in multiple stages including dreamless periods of light and deep sleep, and occasional periods of active dreaming (REM sleep). The sleep cycle is repeated several times during the night and although total sleep time tends to remain constant, older people spend more time in the lighter stages of sleep than in deep sleep.

Many older adults, though certainly not all, also report being less satisfied with sleep and more tired during the day. Studies on the sleep habits of older Americans show an increase in the time it takes to fall asleep (sleep latency), an overall decline in REM sleep, and an increase in sleep fragmentation (waking up during the night) with age. The prevalence of sleep disorders also tends to increase with age. However, research suggests that much of the sleep disturbance among the elderly can be attributed to physical and psychiatric illnesses and the medications used to treat them.

The prevalence of insomnia is also higher among older adults. According to NSF's 2003 Sleep in America poll, 44% of older persons experience one or more of the nighttime symptoms of insomnia at least a few nights per week or more. Insomnia may be chronic (lasting over one month) or acute (lasting a few days or weeks) and is often times related to an underlying cause such as a medical or psychiatric condition.

Source: Aging and Sleep

I have had problems with sleeping too much all my life.
Its a real pain in the bum.

I think i have a condition called idiopathic hypersomnia, which means i sleep more than most people and don't find it hard to get to sleep, although i don't think i generally get quality sleep. I sleep 12 hours a day. Which really sucks.

I have previously had sleep studies which show that i do suffer from sleep apnea to some extent, but which is likely caused by neurological problems and anxiety than anything else. as well as having a smaller than normal airway.

I did try a CPAP machine once for a week trial, but it didn't improve my sleep and it caused eczema around where the mask was. Which isn't a particularly flattering look.

So. i guess i just got to put up with it all. Real pain, as it means that i sleep more.
Also i suffer from sensory overload, if exposed to too much sensory info i have to have a nap.
A bit like a baby.... "all that excitement, no wonder he needs a little nap"...

but never mind. I may get a fit bit
problem with that one is that i suffer from eczema and i can't wear it for long without getting eczema
perhaps worth trying though

interesting topic

I had sleep apnea before. It kept my wife away all night long. The constant loud snoring. It was because I was obese. I had gastric bypass stomach surgery and dropped 120 pounds and the sleep apnea went away.



I had a similar problem with the Fitbit. I started to develop a rash. So I decided to wear it only at bedtime. The problem went away.

Thanks, actually what I meant by "sensor" was the thing that actually picks up the eye movements and sends the info to the processor, which judging by the other things you've since said here seems to be a mask of some kind. And it seems the mask isn't very comfortable for some folks. I'm toying with the idea of having a go myself so I'm wondering about how much bother it would be to get some data out of it.

Interesting that it suggests medical and psychiatric conditions, and the medications people take to treat them, often account for the loss of sleep quality with age. That would neatly explain my own experience, as I have no such ailments as far as I know, and so don't use medications routinely, and I haven't seen any decline in the quality or quantity of my sleep over the past few decades. Looks like you're bucking the trend too, for some reason.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/d ... ith-sleep/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705609

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4246141/

Here are some articles I read a few months ago regarding sleep patterns for autistic individuals. I may have posted them before, but I can't remember where.

Apparently, autistic people have distinct results in clinical sleep testing. Results generally find late onset sleep (latency) and less restorative sleep in stages 4 and 5 for those on the spectrum. It's theorised that our minds stay hyper-alert and don't rest well because of sensory issues, anxiety, and the fact we make many cognitive associations / connected thoughts while trying to fall sleep.

In my own clinical sleep studies (two), I had the exact pattern described in the second article even though I had yet to be identified as autistic at that time. My test results showed that I don't even reach Delta Wave (Stage 5) sleep, meaning I don't ever get a truly restorative rest. I also have apnea, but I can't do the CPAP because it causes me to have sensory meltdowns which are more damaging than the apnea itself.

There is no facemask. It is just like wearing a watch. According to Fitbit:

Sleep stages are traditionally measured in a lab using an electroencephalogram to detect brain activity along with other systems to monitor eye and muscle activity. While this method is the gold standard for measuring sleep stages, your device can estimate your sleep stages in a more comfortable, convenient way.

Fitbit estimates your sleep stages using a combination of your movement and heart-rate patterns. When you haven’t moved for about an hour, your tracker or watch assumes that you’re asleep. Additional data—such as the length of time your movements are indicative of sleep behavior (such as rolling over, etc.)—help confirm that you’re asleep. While you’re sleeping, your device tracks the beat-to-beat changes in your heart rate, known as heart rate variability (HRV), which fluctuate as you transition between light sleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep stages. When you sync your device in the morning, we use your movement and heart rate patterns to estimate your sleep cycles from the previous night.

Source: What should I know about sleep stages?

Last edited by jimmy m on 22 Aug 2019, 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

It can happen during prolonged sleep deprivation. Are you an insomniac?

That is really a bummer. Because Stage 5 (REM sleep) helps relieve anxiety from daily stress.

There are other approaches to dealing with Sleep Apnea other than a CPAP machine. For example:

Upper Airway Stimulation (UAS) Therapy

Some people with obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA [Obstructive Sleep Apnea], are unable to use continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) therapy, the most commonly prescribed OSA treatment, despite best efforts. Now there’s a new, clinically proven therapy for some people with moderate to severe OSA who are unable to use CPAP.

This is a new therapy that works inside your body, and with your natural breathing process, to treat moderate to severe sleep apnea. This therapy might be right for you if:

* You have been diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea
* You can’t use or don’t get relief from CPAP

The system consists of three components: a small generator, a breathing sensor lead, and a stimulation lead—all controlled by the small handheld Inspire sleep remote. Simply turn the therapy on at night before bed, and off in the morning when you wake up. When activated, Inspire therapy continuously monitors your breathing patterns during sleep and delivers mild stimulation to key airway muscles, which keeps the airway open. Your UAS therapy doctor will also evaluate your airway anatomy and overall health status to determine if Inspire therapy is right for you.

Source: SLEEP APNEA TREATMENT OPTIONS

Interesting set of links. In the first one:
Half of children who have autism have trouble falling or staying asleep, which may make their symptoms worse. Theoretical causes are abnormal circadian rhythm, lack of hormone melatonin, medication side effects, too much stimulation at bedtime or medical disorders ranging from anxiety and epilepsy to restless legs syndrome and gastrointestinal problems.

I have used melatonin when I went on long trips passing through multiple time zones and it worked well for me. But the last time I took this hormone was well over 20 years ago. For those Aspies that experience problems with sleeping have you tried melatonin?

In the 1990s, Australian psychologist Amanda Richdale found that 44 to 83 percent of children on the spectrum have some kind of difficulty with slumber, based on parent reports. Since then, a growing number of studies using increasingly sophisticated objective methods — including video recordings and FitBit-like wristwatches that track movements during sleep — have confirmed the high prevalence of sleep disruptions in this population.

What they’ve found is that children on the spectrum most commonly struggle with insomnia that delays the onset of sleep.

...an intriguing finding that children with autism might have less rapid-eye movement (REM) sleep has added to general concerns that a lack of proper slumber may worsen cognitive functioning in people with the disorder. The REM phase, when most dreaming occurs, is thought to be key for memory and learning.

In the case of one child, the sleep abnormalities were localized to sleep apnea. The girl underwent surgery to remove her tonsils. Sleep apnea, a condition in which breathing repeatedly stops for seconds at a time throughout the night, triggering unconscious ‘micro-arousals’ as the sleeper briefly gasps awake. The breathing disruptions can result from a physical blockage of the upper airway by soft tissues, such as the tonsils and adenoids, or from a brain glitch. Partial airway closures can also cause shallow breathing, or hypopnea, which also can interrupt sleep.

The results The girl has been sleeping more deeply and is able to make it through the days with less crying. She is less manic, with more stable levels of energy, her mother says. For another autistic girl from Tennessee, after the child had surgery to remove her tonsils and adenoids, she became more alert, affectionate and interactive, and her habit of spinning in circles resolved.

That is an interesting approach. I never had my tonsils removed. If you are an Aspie and have sleep apnea, do you still have your tonsils?

[Tonsillectomies aren't just for kids. Adults can need them, too. Chronic throat infection is the most common reason adults have their tonsils out. Other reasons you might have your tonsils removed as an adult include: Obstructive sleep apnea (if a blockage of your upper airway is caused by swollen tonsils), Bad breath, or halitosis, that doesn't go away (if caused by a collection of pus and debris in your tonsil area), Cancer. Source: Can an Adult Need a Tonsillectomy?]

In a study by O’Hara, 40 percent of the children with autism had sleep apnea. This is much higher than the general population.

^
I use melatonin sometimes - a relatively high dose helps once in a while but does nothing during my worst or even moderate bouts of insomnia.