Defeatism, or "Learned Helplessness".

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firemonkey
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06 Dec 2019, 8:16 am

magz wrote:
I got intrigued by the "loci of control" concept.
I found this test: http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/LC.html
On a scale from 0 to 13 I scored 6 - I interpret it as "balanced" locus of control, external events and individual's efforts are roughly equally important.

However, I wonder if there is measurable variation in locus of control placement between different cultures.


7 whatever that means .


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magz
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06 Dec 2019, 8:21 am

firemonkey wrote:
magz wrote:
I got intrigued by the "loci of control" concept.
I found this test: http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/LC.html
On a scale from 0 to 13 I scored 6 - I interpret it as "balanced" locus of control, external events and individual's efforts are roughly equally important.

However, I wonder if there is measurable variation in locus of control placement between different cultures.

7 whatever that means .

Similar to mine, in the middle - a belief that life is affected by both external factors and personal efforts.


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Artaszen
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06 Dec 2019, 5:04 pm

First I should note I do this via a phone which won't let me cut & paste for replies.

Fnord I'm glad you brought the topic up. I've studied that study done on the dogs & I thought I knew what it meant as it pertains to humans but this is a new perspective. I'm grateful for it.
"Why should I reply to their questions when they are going to give me what they want me to have no matter what I say? It's a waste of my effort to reply but they think I am ignoring them if I say nothing and they get upset."
That reasoning & the resulting verbal shutdown got me diagnosed HFA High IQ in the 80's. I hadn't realized it was Defeatist in attitude. The diagnostitian did not say it was. He also wasn't the type to see it Programming or abusive to make the baby adapt to the feeding schedule instead of making a schedule adaptable to baby's feeding needs.

It might help the topic (a good one, IMHO) to know the human diagnostic term for "Learned Helplessness" in dogs. In people it's called "Resignation Syndrome". It's usually used only in severe cases of abuse.
"Defeatism" is a milder form I think. We don't usually stop trying to communicate when others repeatedly obstruct helps to us. We don't usually stop ADL's. It's significant when we do as part of an Autistic Shutdown. Maybe that's a point where Defeatism becomes Resignation Syndrome?
What I have to say on it is sad. It might be clinically significant but if the problem really is external no amount of therapy or medication will help. Somebody would have to show the victim the trolls, Nazi's, Bolsheviks, bullies, or Obstructionists are stopped.

In the experiment with the dogs nobody wrote if the dogs "rescued" were shown how the shocks happened & that they were stopped. Fortunately we can do that for people being victimized to death once the criminals are stopped. We can show them new laws & methods to prevent more abuse.



magz
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07 Dec 2019, 3:20 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resignation_syndrome
You couldn't have been diagnosed with it in 1980s because the term was coined in 1990s and it's still not in diagnositic manuals outside Sweden - and even there it applies only to a particular demographics (migrants).


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domineekee
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07 Dec 2019, 9:52 am

What is the best way to help others?

I moved in with a friend who didn't respond to any heavy or delusional conversation, he would just carry on browsing the web. If the conversation was light hearted or objective he would stop an engage immediately, this was immensely helpful. There was never any judgement or advise.



magz
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07 Dec 2019, 9:56 am

domineekee wrote:
What is the best way to help others?

I moved in with a friend who didn't respond to any heavy or delusional conversation, he would just carry on browsing the web. If the conversation was light hearted or objective he would stop an engage immediately, this was immensely helpful. There was never any judgement or advise.

Darn, you're right!
Just like my conversation with Kraftie, yesterday - about dried soup mixes.
These things can keep a person afloat!


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Rainbow_Belle
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08 Dec 2019, 1:52 am

There is no shame in giving up or quitting things.
If you are no good at something, do not enjoy doing something, it is better to spend time doing something else.



ouinon2
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08 Dec 2019, 1:58 am

Artaszen wrote:
What I have to say on it is sad. It might be clinically significant but if the problem really is external no amount of therapy or medication will help. Somebody would have to show the victim the trolls, Nazi's, Bolsheviks, bullies, or Obstructionists are stopped.

In the experiment with the dogs nobody wrote if the dogs "rescued" were shown how the shocks happened & that they were stopped. Fortunately we can do that for people being victimized to death once the criminals are stopped. We can show them new laws & methods to prevent more abuse.

It took me a while to digest what you referred to as the sadness of this.

Yes, if can see no sign of the situation having genuinely changed is it ever possible to recover from LH/to develop an internal as opposed to external locus of control etc?

Current political climate not exactly helpful in that respect.

They do say that physical exercise may help, because ( re ) affirms control over one's body at least, plus it tends to trigger production of endorphins and/or dopamine.

How to overcome LH enough to believe/have faith in that goal sufficiently to pursue it though? :? :( ...

Fnord, I've been aware of my own LH for a while, but that has not helped me overcome it, if anything it has added to my belief that I cannot change things/make a difference ... or not for very long/more than a couple of months anyway.



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08 Dec 2019, 8:09 am

I find that its just easier when my parents "clean up my mess" because they'll often initiate doing so anyway like how I got screwed up with QVC and my mom insisted on getting on the phone with them to correct the problem they created.

To add more context, what happened was I bought an item that I later found out was exceptionally overpriced and an older version of what I was looking for. After the fact my mom told me that QVC wasn't the same QVC anymore and their policies have changed but I didn't realize it until they lied to me about the return label being prepaid and I ended up having to pay almost $30 to send it back because I got put on the spot.



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08 Dec 2019, 11:07 am

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
There is no shame in giving up or quitting things. If you are no good at something, do not enjoy doing something, it is better to spend time doing something else.
It only makes sense to give up on something that everyone finds difficult or impossible, but to give up on something that practically anyone can do makes no sense at all. Furthermore, if something really is impossible for practically anyone, then there is no reason to complain about it.


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magz
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08 Dec 2019, 11:12 am

Fnord wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
There is no shame in giving up or quitting things. If you are no good at something, do not enjoy doing something, it is better to spend time doing something else.
It only makes sense to give up on something that everyone finds difficult or impossible, but to give up on something that practically anyone can do makes no sense at all. Furthermore, if something really is impossible for practically anyone, then there is no reason to complain about it.

I see it differently.
There is nothing wrong in giving up something unnecessary, no matter how easy "everyone" finds it.


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Fnord
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08 Dec 2019, 11:16 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
There is no shame in giving up or quitting things. If you are no good at something, do not enjoy doing something, it is better to spend time doing something else.
It only makes sense to give up on something that everyone finds difficult or impossible, but to give up on something that practically anyone can do makes no sense at all. Furthermore, if something really is impossible for practically anyone, then there is no reason to complain about it.
... There is nothing wrong in giving up something unnecessary, no matter how easy "everyone" finds it.
That also makes perfect sense.


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Rainbow_Belle
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09 Dec 2019, 3:06 am

I can not get a job because of Aspergers.
I can not drive a car because of Aspergers.
I can not make friends because of Aspergers.
Aspergers may lead to a life of failure, defeatism, learned helplessness and victim mentality.
I can not do ........ because of Aspergers.



magz
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09 Dec 2019, 3:41 am

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
I can not get a job because of Aspergers.
My boss has Asperger's.
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
I can not drive a car because of Aspergers.
A lot of WP members drive.
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
I can not make friends because of Aspergers.
ASD-friendly friendships is a big topic, Mona often mentions autistic-friendly social skills.
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Aspergers may lead to a life of failure, defeatism, learned helplessness and victim mentality.
It may or may not. Other conditions may lead to them, too.
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
I can not do ........ because of Aspergers.

You may not be able to get a job, drive a car or make friends, you may see yourself as a failure and linger in defeatism and learned helplessness but a belief of Asperger's as a sole source of it all is simply false.


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skibum
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09 Dec 2019, 9:12 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
... It’s not about going from 0 to 100, either. It helps to make small, manageable changes and to set small, manageable goals. This helps mental health problems from swinging out of control.

For example, if someone is thinking about getting a job, he or she could start looking on Indeed a little each day and think about what she would like to do instead of jumping right in and applying to every opening in the area. Also, limiting interviews to one a day might be smart...
Yes, small steps.

Set a future ultimate goal and ask yourself, "What do I need to do to make this happen?" Then set that as your goal and ask the same question. Repeat continuously until you arrive at the present and say "I'm ready" and begin the process, working back along the path of goals until you reach the ultimate one.
Small steps is key. Having a series of small, realistic, and achievable goals and being able to accomplish them one at a time is what will lead to the big accomplishments. Big accomplishments don't happen in isolation. They are build on small steps.


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