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Is autism becoming infantalised?

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cubedemon6073
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03 Sep 2020, 6:37 pm

KT67 wrote:
Twice.

My dyspraxia gets in the way of making graphs, reading graphs, making 3d shapes, predicting 3d shapes.

I'd need a heavily algebraic, averages and arithmetic based test/course in order to pass it.

Idk if it's changed but that's not what GCSE maths was either in my day or when I did the course again 5 years later. I think it was majorly about geometry and graphs?

I'm HFA but if dyspraxia was in terms of 'functioning' then I'd be 'low functioning dyspraxic'. Basically, very dyspraxic.


Do you have problems making analog clocks as well?

And, what kind of 3d shapes did you have to make?

I looked up dyspraxia. I may have that as well. It would explain why I have motor coordination problems and why on a cognitive test I had issues drawing an analog clock.



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03 Sep 2020, 7:45 pm

KT67 wrote:
Twice.

My dyspraxia gets in the way of making graphs, reading graphs, making 3d shapes, predicting 3d shapes.

I'd need a heavily algebraic, averages and arithmetic based test/course in order to pass it.

Idk if it's changed but that's not what GCSE maths was either in my day or when I did the course again 5 years later. I think it was majorly about geometry and graphs?

I'm HFA but if dyspraxia was in terms of 'functioning' then I'd be 'low functioning dyspraxic'. Basically, very dyspraxic.

I failed geometry twice as well. and i took algebra 3 times. (Didn't fail it ny of those times either.) idk my high school classes have been funky. And so far I'm struggling even more with trigonometry. I'm glad Id o online school so I can use google cause i couldn't recall 90% of the terms anyway. I hate geometry. i hate trigonometry even more. i'm like let's take pre-calc so i don't have to take trigonometry. first 3 units are trigonometry. :x


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03 Sep 2020, 11:21 pm

I've also could never learn algebra and learn to do geometry. I have always struggled doing big math problems too.


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04 Sep 2020, 2:29 am

At my 1st psych appointment here in Wiltshire the pdoc had me do some things with my hands. He then said I was quite dyspraxic.



KT67
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04 Sep 2020, 5:41 am

Nades wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Twice.

My dyspraxia gets in the way of making graphs, reading graphs, making 3d shapes, predicting 3d shapes.

I'd need a heavily algebraic, averages and arithmetic based test/course in order to pass it.

Idk if it's changed but that's not what GCSE maths was either in my day or when I did the course again 5 years later. I think it was majorly about geometry and graphs?

I'm HFA but if dyspraxia was in terms of 'functioning' then I'd be 'low functioning dyspraxic'. Basically, very dyspraxic.


It might be worth going over the last few years recent maths exams to see how they've changed. When I done the exam in 2006 I don't really remember much about graphs but remember putting a lot of my workings out on questions I had no idea what the answer was and somehow passing. Guessing the answers and partially knowing where to begin when working them out seems to really bump up the marks. That was a tactic the teachers said to use and I can't argue with the results on that day in 2006 and this is coming from a guy with the mental arithmetic age of an 8 year old last time I was IQ tested. The logic of maths I can understand, using a calculator I can understand, reading graphs I can understand but like you I had one issue that was I was beyond terrible at mental arithmetic and should have failed as a result but didn't.

I imagine the issue with graphs can be cancelled out in some other way if you tell the teacher about your issues. Some really do know all manners of sneaky tactics that they'll spill the beans with.


If you want to be seen as apolitical, it's a good idea to stop trying to force someone with social anxiety diagnosed by a doctor into work. My doctor doesn't think it's good for me, and I trust her over a stranger online who's obsessed with everyone working.

My values post-breakdown are very different to my values pre-breakdown. I don't care if I'm 'normal'. I care if my mental health stays stable. I care if my mum's physical health stays stable, which is why I'm worried about her going back to work on Monday & hope she takes every precaution.


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KT67
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04 Sep 2020, 5:43 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Twice.

My dyspraxia gets in the way of making graphs, reading graphs, making 3d shapes, predicting 3d shapes.

I'd need a heavily algebraic, averages and arithmetic based test/course in order to pass it.

Idk if it's changed but that's not what GCSE maths was either in my day or when I did the course again 5 years later. I think it was majorly about geometry and graphs?

I'm HFA but if dyspraxia was in terms of 'functioning' then I'd be 'low functioning dyspraxic'. Basically, very dyspraxic.


Do you have problems making analog clocks as well?

And, what kind of 3d shapes did you have to make?

I looked up dyspraxia. I may have that as well. It would explain why I have motor coordination problems and why on a cognitive test I had issues drawing an analog clock.


Yeah I have problems making and reading analog clocks.

Between that and my touch sensitivity, it's a good thing that mobile phones & computers really took off over the decades. Cos otherwise, I wouldn't be able to tell the time past 'o'clock' and 'half past'.


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Nades
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04 Sep 2020, 10:37 am

KT67 wrote:
Nades wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Twice.

My dyspraxia gets in the way of making graphs, reading graphs, making 3d shapes, predicting 3d shapes.

I'd need a heavily algebraic, averages and arithmetic based test/course in order to pass it.

Idk if it's changed but that's not what GCSE maths was either in my day or when I did the course again 5 years later. I think it was majorly about geometry and graphs?

I'm HFA but if dyspraxia was in terms of 'functioning' then I'd be 'low functioning dyspraxic'. Basically, very dyspraxic.


It might be worth going over the last few years recent maths exams to see how they've changed. When I done the exam in 2006 I don't really remember much about graphs but remember putting a lot of my workings out on questions I had no idea what the answer was and somehow passing. Guessing the answers and partially knowing where to begin when working them out seems to really bump up the marks. That was a tactic the teachers said to use and I can't argue with the results on that day in 2006 and this is coming from a guy with the mental arithmetic age of an 8 year old last time I was IQ tested. The logic of maths I can understand, using a calculator I can understand, reading graphs I can understand but like you I had one issue that was I was beyond terrible at mental arithmetic and should have failed as a result but didn't.

I imagine the issue with graphs can be cancelled out in some other way if you tell the teacher about your issues. Some really do know all manners of sneaky tactics that they'll spill the beans with.


If you want to be seen as apolitical, it's a good idea to stop trying to force someone with social anxiety diagnosed by a doctor into work. My doctor doesn't think it's good for me, and I trust her over a stranger online who's obsessed with everyone working.

My values post-breakdown are very different to my values pre-breakdown. I don't care if I'm 'normal'. I care if my mental health stays stable. I care if my mum's physical health stays stable, which is why I'm worried about her going back to work on Monday & hope she takes every precaution.


I'm not forcing anyone into work. I didn't say anything about mandatory lifelong jobs.



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04 Sep 2020, 10:45 am

OK well in my case it wouldn't be at all useful because the only reason I wanted/needed a maths GCSE was in order to get a job. Means to an end.

I'm unfit for work so I'm not going to waste my time on it.


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04 Sep 2020, 11:19 am

Nades wrote:
I imagine to most of you it's no mystery that Autism has some degree of a "childlike" stigma to it. Indeed, most of the social groups for people with autism are mostly focused on parents with autistic children. All the social media groups relating to autism I have joined are almost exclusively parent and child orientated and very little is for adults despite the fact most people with autism are over 18. I have managed to find out very good group for adults with autism in my area but that's so far it.

Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.

Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.

I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.

I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.

Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?


I fully agree, I absolutely have noticed this. I find a lot of the spectrum, parents of autistics and autistics alike, are more interested in forcing society to adapt to them or finding clever new ways to play the victim role so as to not be accountable for being a responsible adult.

I fully understand that life's challenges are much harder if you're on the autism spectrum (like me) but I truly feel some people are just not interested in facing those challenges. Maybe those reasons are justified, maybe I'm just a jerk, but I personally couldn't imagine living in my dad's basement until my 40s, despite him making it clear that, not only was it an option, but an expectation. What a miserable existence that would be!


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04 Sep 2020, 12:55 pm

My parents never shielded me. You don't get sent to boarding school if the intention is to shield you. Although my parents were fully aware of things like my poor coordination, stammering, the things my 1st school were concerned about; they didn't shield me. Indeed the dots weren't even joined together.

On the feedback from the 1st school I was assessed for the S word. When that was negative they didn't press the issue. If anything, based on the facts available, they both buried their heads in the sand.

A classic example of that was my experiencing a marked academic decline after I took O 'levels, due to my mental health deteriorating, and my father saying he'd get me something good if I got into Cambridge or Oxford uni. I was actually performing at a b- / c+ level.



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04 Sep 2020, 1:36 pm

People accuse my mum of overparenting but it's cos they don't know my story or hers. I'd rather not go into the two things I'm thinking about because they're quite personal.

My dad certainly doesn't over parent. He's a crap dad. He shouldn't have been a dad. His version of being a parent is to be a friend/playmate/little brother. Since I was a kid, I've been used to his tantrums in public places. And he turns to me every time he needs the slightest bit of help (has done since I was a teenager) but I can't turn to him for help & haven't ever been able to do so. People like that shouldn't become parents - it's a responsibility.

My mum's ideal would be if me, her husband, her dad and her all lived on the same property. Not to over parent me: I live with her now and do my own cooking and cleaning and pay rent. Just that her version of loving someone is to be close to them. My granddad doesn't want to leave his house and come live here, honestly there's not space til I move to the other house. But maybe once I move out & he gets older, he'll have no choice but to live with her. I'd like that cos I'd live near him and see him more often.

And in the far distant future, I'll move in with her again. And the amount of looking after her I do now will increase and the amount of looking after me she does will decrease. I already look after her a fair amount, esp after her chemo etc.

I can't think of anything worse for me than what I planned when I was masking: to move to a town away from her. I'd miss her so much. But my eventual plan is to move a few streets away and we already have the property I'm moving to.

I don't care anymore about what's 'normal' or 'grown up'. I care about what makes me happy and my family happy. The concept of a nuclear family is quite modern in terms of the course of human history. Did all the people who lived before it was invented live immature lives? What about people in cultures where it hasn't taken off yet?*

* Then again mum had an Indian NT, non disabled, Brahmin friend who had grown up with servants until she was 30 and she didn't know how to do her own laundry or cook a meal for herself when she moved out :roll: Now that's pathologizing people who don't need pathologizing ... Just cos her servants had always done everything for her...


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cubedemon6073
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04 Sep 2020, 10:55 pm

886 wrote:
Nades wrote:
I imagine to most of you it's no mystery that Autism has some degree of a "childlike" stigma to it. Indeed, most of the social groups for people with autism are mostly focused on parents with autistic children. All the social media groups relating to autism I have joined are almost exclusively parent and child orientated and very little is for adults despite the fact most people with autism are over 18. I have managed to find out very good group for adults with autism in my area but that's so far it.

Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.

Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.

I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.

I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.

Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?


I fully agree, I absolutely have noticed this. I find a lot of the spectrum, parents of autistics and autistics alike, are more interested in forcing society to adapt to them or finding clever new ways to play the victim role so as to not be accountable for being a responsible adult.

I fully understand that life's challenges are much harder if you're on the autism spectrum (like me) but I truly feel some people are just not interested in facing those challenges. Maybe those reasons are justified, maybe I'm just a jerk, but I personally couldn't imagine living in my dad's basement until my 40s, despite him making it clear that, not only was it an option, but an expectation. What a miserable existence that would be!


Take a look at my response to Nades.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=389994&start=192#p8599949



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05 Sep 2020, 3:00 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Nades wrote:
I imagine to most of you it's no mystery that Autism has some degree of a "childlike" stigma to it. Indeed, most of the social groups for people with autism are mostly focused on parents with autistic children. All the social media groups relating to autism I have joined are almost exclusively parent and child orientated and very little is for adults despite the fact most people with autism are over 18. I have managed to find out very good group for adults with autism in my area but that's so far it.

Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.

Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.

I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.

I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.

Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?


Here are the issues with what you say.

1. I don't know what country you live in but I come from the USA. I don't know if other societies says this or not. This is the same society that says be yourself and be true to who you are. So, it seems like a bunch of mixed messages.

2. Let me ask you this. First, Fnord was able to succeed in society and it was due to his DOD (dear old dad) method. Second, for every Fnord who succeeded with his DOD method what is the ratio of those who sunk even though the DOD was applied? How many of autistics were encouraged to succeed, encouraged to have the positive attitude, confidence and change "I can't" to "I can?" How many autistics had family members who believed in them and did everything they could to get them to succeed and be independent, functioning, contributing members of society? What is the ratio of those autistics who were able to be independent vs those who were not in spite of all the encouragement and methods done by various family?

3. Why is it that those with other disabilities like mental retardation gets a free pass? Do those who have intellectual disabilities have the same requirements by society that we autistics do? Why don't they have the same requirements as we do? Why are we expected to conform and contort ourselves no matter how much it affects us negatively yet those who have intellectual disabilities do not? We're seen as ret*d in society's eyes. So, why can't we get the same benefits as what society calls "ret*d" gets?

4. Has anyone looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The reality is for disabled folks in general is that there are more disabled people who are not in the labor force then employed and unemployed. By, the way when you hear about the unemployment rate you don't hear about the "not in the labor force" which means they don't have a job and they quit looking.

5. At what cost must a person continue to try to contort and conform to society's expectations? At what point does the expectations by society become a detriment to a person's mental and physical health and when does the person stand up for himself and say no. No to all of the expectations they can't meet. When is enough, enough?

6. Is it reasonable to expect aid, support and guidance from society to conform and contort ourselves to all of their requirements? Is it reasonable to expect that places like Voc Rehab can have increased funding so the staff can provide effective services to disabled people in an efficient manner? Can we expect services from disability orgs like Voc Rehab to provide services that are meaningful to specific disabilities like ASDs? Are the taxpayers willing to pay for this through their tax dollars?


As well as this, it's a very culturally specific 'grown up' that they're talking about. The most individualistic one. He's Welsh but it's all based around the American dream.

The whole 'you must leave home at 18' thing is only true online for me. When I look at family and friends around me, I don't see that. I see about a third of people who are NT, non-disabled and who live at home in their 20s and 30s, doing jobs after uni and paying rent but living with parents. I see nothing wrong with this.


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05 Sep 2020, 3:57 am

I have no problem telling the time with an analog clock. Drawing one is a lot more difficult though.



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05 Sep 2020, 9:41 am

KT67 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Nades wrote:
I imagine to most of you it's no mystery that Autism has some degree of a "childlike" stigma to it. Indeed, most of the social groups for people with autism are mostly focused on parents with autistic children. All the social media groups relating to autism I have joined are almost exclusively parent and child orientated and very little is for adults despite the fact most people with autism are over 18. I have managed to find out very good group for adults with autism in my area but that's so far it.

Another issue (at least in my eyes) that has been grating on me is this sudden increase in making public places autism friendly despite personally thinking it does more harm than good and is far too specific to work in practice. I think all it does is make the stigma worse by people wrongly assuming autistic people can only cope in society if society conforms to them. Not only does that concept slightly annoy me but I think long term it harms the people it's supposed to help by effectively trying to make a societal and social "bubble" for them to live in that's removed from the norm.

Over the years I have seen autistic adults who make me wonder just what they could have achieved if it wasn't for the never ending shielding from their parents (Some parents are FAR worse than others). It's almost like some of them have been stuck in an arrested development where they question their own ability every time they're confronted with a challenge despite them being perfectly capable deep down inside. Driving licences, part time work, intimacy with a partner, just...taking on a challenge or going outside their comfort zone a bit, a lot of those recommendations have been shot down by some autistic friends and I wonder why.

I'm not deluded however, I know full well not all people with Aspergers or autism in general can blend in seamlessly with society, autism is autism and it effects everyone different including myself but Iv'e always thought it's good to at least try.

I have no idea what anyone's ideas are on confronting "normie" society instead of hiding to a limited extent from it.

Has anyone else noticed or had the same thoughts as me on the subject?


Here are the issues with what you say.

1. I don't know what country you live in but I come from the USA. I don't know if other societies says this or not. This is the same society that says be yourself and be true to who you are. So, it seems like a bunch of mixed messages.

2. Let me ask you this. First, Fnord was able to succeed in society and it was due to his DOD (dear old dad) method. Second, for every Fnord who succeeded with his DOD method what is the ratio of those who sunk even though the DOD was applied? How many of autistics were encouraged to succeed, encouraged to have the positive attitude, confidence and change "I can't" to "I can?" How many autistics had family members who believed in them and did everything they could to get them to succeed and be independent, functioning, contributing members of society? What is the ratio of those autistics who were able to be independent vs those who were not in spite of all the encouragement and methods done by various family?

3. Why is it that those with other disabilities like mental retardation gets a free pass? Do those who have intellectual disabilities have the same requirements by society that we autistics do? Why don't they have the same requirements as we do? Why are we expected to conform and contort ourselves no matter how much it affects us negatively yet those who have intellectual disabilities do not? We're seen as ret*d in society's eyes. So, why can't we get the same benefits as what society calls "ret*d" gets?

4. Has anyone looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The reality is for disabled folks in general is that there are more disabled people who are not in the labor force then employed and unemployed. By, the way when you hear about the unemployment rate you don't hear about the "not in the labor force" which means they don't have a job and they quit looking.

5. At what cost must a person continue to try to contort and conform to society's expectations? At what point does the expectations by society become a detriment to a person's mental and physical health and when does the person stand up for himself and say no. No to all of the expectations they can't meet. When is enough, enough?

6. Is it reasonable to expect aid, support and guidance from society to conform and contort ourselves to all of their requirements? Is it reasonable to expect that places like Voc Rehab can have increased funding so the staff can provide effective services to disabled people in an efficient manner? Can we expect services from disability orgs like Voc Rehab to provide services that are meaningful to specific disabilities like ASDs? Are the taxpayers willing to pay for this through their tax dollars?


As well as this, it's a very culturally specific 'grown up' that they're talking about. The most individualistic one. He's Welsh but it's all based around the American dream.

The whole 'you must leave home at 18' thing is only true online for me. When I look at family and friends around me, I don't see that. I see about a third of people who are NT, non-disabled and who live at home in their 20s and 30s, doing jobs after uni and paying rent but living with parents. I see nothing wrong with this.


I'm not really into the American dream or condoning looking down on others who still live with their parents in the 20s, 30s, 40s and beyond. It just depends on why you're living with them. I still live at home with my mother. We split bills and both save a lot of money.

As for encouraging others to live the American dream, if they can then why not is my view on it. Yeah it'll be cool to see autistic people live the American dream, but to be fair and in all honesty, I have no idea what the America dream even is. Everyone has a different idea but I assume it's middle class, house and car. If that's it then in my eyes why not aim for it.



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05 Sep 2020, 1:38 pm

I agree then.

People should do what makes them happy as long as it's long term happiness. If someone's not going to be able to sustain - financially/physically/mentally - a lifestyle then it should be acknowledged as only a short term thing with a plan as to how to change it in the future.

What I see the American dream as is making as much money as fast as possible then settling into a lifestyle where you have the best wife you can get and well mannered children in the best house you can get, drive the best car you can get etc. Although specifically what I was referring to was the 'move out, get the best job and car possible' part of that.

I think if that's what someone actually genuinely happens to come upon through chasing their actual dreams then fair enough. But if not then they should really sit down and ask themselves 1 what's their long term dreams and 2 what kind of life they want to have while reaching that and 3 is it physically/mentally/financially sustainable or not.

Perfectionism was bad for me. I spent my teenage years and my young adult years (til my mid 20s) trying to be the very best at everything. Beating myself up mentally over small things which weren't real failures and over not 'passing' as normal/cool. I didn't stop to think 'what's my actual goals' just 'what does society admire the most' and 'what's the most normal?'. That's quite common in someone's youth and unhealthy, especially for aspies but even for NTs.


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