Treatment of High Functioning Vs Lower Functioning on W.P

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cyberdad
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29 Sep 2020, 7:02 am

firemonkey wrote:
Cyberdad talks about most posters being 'intellectually high functioning' , but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good at coping with the day to day practicalities of life.


Sorry FM...I'm trying to understand



Steve1963
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29 Sep 2020, 7:03 am

firemonkey wrote:
Cyberdad talks about most posters being 'intellectually high functioning' , but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good at coping with the day to day practicalities of life.
I consider myself 'intellectually high functioning' but am hesitant to post about my real day to day experiences as I fear being told to 'suck it up' or 'just do it'.



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29 Sep 2020, 7:04 am

Teach51 wrote:
I have been PMed by certain people who complained of the invalidation of their difficulties so not so weird. I also asked for positive suggestions, not debating whether my thread is legitimate or not. This thread has nothing to do with NT's. I have myself witnessed people who have shared their difficulties and have been brushed off as being weak and defeatist by other members. I am asking how we can improve on that reception.


The confusion is because of the poll. It looks like you are wanting to know whether or not this is a problem for people, so I thought it was valid to express thoughts on that before addressing what we can do about it.

Now I understand your intent a bit better, I'll try and think up some ideas, though it's a tricky problem to address.
We can't really stop people from saying whatever they like on the fora, as long as it's within the rules, and I'm not sure whether people would be receptive to more extensive guidelines.
Perhaps, as Cyberdad suggested, more dedicated fora for those with certain struggles? There's already one for mental health comorbids, but nothing specifically for those diagnosed Level 2 or 3, or those with intellectual impairment.



Teach51
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29 Sep 2020, 7:09 am

cyberdad wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
Perhaps they didn't feel comfortable here? It's not supposed to be solely an Aspergers forum.

Do you have any ideas how WP could be more welcoming and supportive to lower fuctioning members?


We could create a sticky thread for folk who don't feel comfortable but then what would you call it?



In some other autism forums the context is much more support oriented and not focused predominantly on intellectual debate.

Imagine that an autistic person who is struggling, lonely, in need of reinforcement and validation turns to WP as a lifeline. They post that they feel a failure, can't hold down a job, have executive function issues, are depressed. They are looking for help beyond their own limited resources.
The response they receive from one or two posters is "try harder," I have seen that happen repeatedly here, and also I have witnessed a massive migration of many supportive members and those who felt they didn't receive support to other forums. Isn't it blatantly clear how membership has dwindled recently?


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Teach51
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29 Sep 2020, 7:13 am

I think the poll is a little redundant and not particularly clear I agree, I have asked the mods to delete it, sorry :D


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IsabellaLinton
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29 Sep 2020, 7:28 am

I have Level 2 Autism, and combined-type ADHD. I also suffered a stroke and I have Complex Trauma. My nonverbal IQ was in the fifth percentile. I've always found that this site caters primarily to people who have, or are assumed to have, Aspergers. I did share some of my life story here. It was a mixed bag of results. Anything I did or achieved positively was met with skepticism ("You can't possibly be Level 2 if you did that!") and areas where I struggled or expressed difficulty with self-regulation or emotional wellness were often misunderstood such that a few people used that information against me.

I've also noticed that the lower functioning members are often banned, whether it's a coincidence or not, or else they post infrequently seemingly because they aren't treated with the same level of respect. I've seen overt bullying against people who aren't as able as others, but I hope that trend is going to stop with the new moderation team.


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firemonkey
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29 Sep 2020, 7:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
Cyberdad talks about most posters being 'intellectually high functioning' , but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good at coping with the day to day practicalities of life.


Sorry FM...I'm trying to understand



Quote:
Abstract

Individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) exhibit significant impairments in adaptive functioning that impact on their ability to meet the demands of everyday life. A recurrent finding is that there is a pronounced discrepancy between level of cognitive ability and adaptive functioning, and this is particularly prominent among higher-ability individuals.



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30741482/



kraftiekortie
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29 Sep 2020, 7:40 am

I wouldn't have been diagnosed with Asperger's under any circumstances. In fact, I was diagnosed with "infantile autism" back in the 1960s. Infantile autism had no "Aspergian"-type subtype. Most people with that diagnosis would, at least, be considered for permanent institutionalization.

In some of the subfora here, intellectual debate is the norm. People use various techniques to highlight their own point of view, and to dismiss other points of view. It can get rather complex.

People on the "lower end" of the Spectrum might not have experience with this type of debate. And they might not have the ability to be subtle, which is sometimes necessary when presenting a point of view. Thus, people who are inclined towards dismissing others often dismiss and seek to "cancel" "low-functioning" people in debates, thereby making WrongPlanet not a pleasant Site for them.

People who are supposedly "low-functioning" tend to be easier to talk to when you are not feeling your best. They don't try to knock you down at every opportunity. And they have interesting viewpoints on things. I wish they were more prominent in this Site.



IsabellaLinton
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29 Sep 2020, 7:54 am

Good post, Korts. In my case (I think you know :) ) I can debate vociferously. I have a high intellectual IQ and I'm usually OK with subtlety in text. I also write well, which probably makes me seem higher functioning than I am. I think that confuses people, so I often have to remind people my executive and coping skills are weak. My primary difficulty is that I shut down or melt down from the emotional demands of interpersonal relationships, particularly in disagreements.

I've seen others "cancelled" or dismissed exactly as you describe, some for their spelling and sentence structure, some for their limited life experience or lack of confidence, and many for their perceived lack of effort to improve challenges such as sensory processing disorder, depression, anxiety, trauma, mood disorders or agoraphobia - to name a few. There was thinly-veiled ableism on this forum, and I'm still testing the waters to see if it's improved.


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firemonkey
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29 Sep 2020, 8:01 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I have Level 2 Autism, and combined-type ADHD. I also suffered a stroke and I have Complex Trauma. My nonverbal IQ was in the fifth percentile. I've always found that this site caters primarily to people who have, or are assumed to have, Aspergers. I did share some of my life story here. It was a mixed bag of results. Anything I did or achieved positively was met with skepticism ("You can't possibly be Level 2 if you did that!") and areas where I struggled or expressed difficulty with self-regulation or emotional wellness were often misunderstood such that a few people used that information against me.

I've also noticed that the lower functioning members are often banned, whether it's a coincidence or not, or else they post infrequently seemingly because they aren't treated with the same level of respect. I've seen overt bullying against people who aren't as able as others, but I hope that trend is going to stop with the new moderation team.


I think human nature being as it is there's a tendency to want to rank things . That's not always very helpful though if reduced to a singular high or low , ASD 1,2 or 3 description. Functioning is far complex and multi faceted than that .

The reality is x may function better than y at 1,3 and 5 while y functions better than x at 2,4 and 6 . Both need encouragement and support and not to be glibly, and ignorantly, told to 'suck it up' or 'try harder'



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29 Sep 2020, 8:15 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't have been diagnosed with Asperger's under any circumstances. In fact, I was diagnosed with "infantile autism" back in the 1960s. Infantile autism had no "Aspergian"-type subtype. Most people with that diagnosis would, at least, be considered for permanent institutionalization.

In some of the subfora here, intellectual debate is the norm. People use various techniques to highlight their own point of view, and to dismiss other points of view. It can get rather complex.

People on the "lower end" of the Spectrum might not have experience with this type of debate. And they might not have the ability to be subtle, which is sometimes necessary when presenting a point of view. Thus, people who are inclined towards dismissing others often dismiss and seek to "cancel" "low-functioning" people in debates, thereby making WrongPlanet not a pleasant Site for them.

People who are supposedly "low-functioning" tend to be easier to talk to when you are not feeling your best. They don't try to knock you down at every opportunity. And they have interesting viewpoints on things. I wish they were more prominent in this Site.


I wish they were too Kraftie and I agree with Issy that they are frequently banned or ostracized because of misinterpretation or communication challenges. So what is the solution?


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Teach51
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29 Sep 2020, 8:21 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Good post, Korts. In my case (I think you know :) ) I can debate vociferously. I have a high intellectual IQ and I'm usually OK with subtlety in text. I also write well, which probably makes me seem higher functioning than I am. I think that confuses people, so I often have to remind people my executive and coping skills are weak. My primary difficulty is that I shut down or melt down from the emotional demands of interpersonal relationships, particularly in disagreements.

I've seen others "cancelled" or dismissed exactly as you describe, some for their spelling and sentence structure, some for their limited life experience or lack of confidence, and many for their perceived lack of effort to improve challenges such as sensory processing disorder, depression, anxiety, trauma, mood disorders or agoraphobia - to name a few. There was thinly-veiled ableism on this forum, and I'm still testing the waters to see if it's improved.



I really feel the new moderators are trying very hard to 1) revive and refresh the old mods and 2) review the rules and listen objectively to genuine efforts to improve WP's retention statistics and make it a friendlier space for all levels of autism.


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IsabellaLinton
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29 Sep 2020, 8:21 am

firemonkey wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I have Level 2 Autism, and combined-type ADHD. I also suffered a stroke and I have Complex Trauma. My nonverbal IQ was in the fifth percentile. I've always found that this site caters primarily to people who have, or are assumed to have, Aspergers. I did share some of my life story here. It was a mixed bag of results. Anything I did or achieved positively was met with skepticism ("You can't possibly be Level 2 if you did that!") and areas where I struggled or expressed difficulty with self-regulation or emotional wellness were often misunderstood such that a few people used that information against me.

I've also noticed that the lower functioning members are often banned, whether it's a coincidence or not, or else they post infrequently seemingly because they aren't treated with the same level of respect. I've seen overt bullying against people who aren't as able as others, but I hope that trend is going to stop with the new moderation team.


I think human nature being as it is there's a tendency to want to rank things . That's not always very helpful though if reduced to a singular high or low , ASD 1,2 or 3 description. Functioning is far complex and multi faceted than that .

The reality is x may function better than y at 1,3 and 5 while y functions better than x at 2,4 and 6 . Both need encouragement and support and not to be glibly, and ignorantly, told to 'suck it up' or 'try harder'


100% ^

I only gave my level to illustrate a point, but I agree with you. Functioning is very complex and nuanced, especially given a person's co-morbid conditions, life circumstance, and support network.

Regardless of a person's diagnostic level (or lack thereof), we should all be shown compassion and respect.


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29 Sep 2020, 8:27 am

One solution....is to counter the ableism within the thread where it's occurring. Otherwise, the context is lost.

Gently contradict what the "ableist" is saying.

For example----say that "some people" can overcome a certain thing, but that others try very hard, but are not able to. Also mention that one cannot tell how a person "functions" via forum posts.

I don't believe many people who say "ableist" things mean to be "ableist." It's more possible that they haven't experienced some of the difficulties which a certain person might have experienced. Thus, I wouldn't dismiss a person saying "ableist" things as being an "ableist." I would educate such a person. Use dialogue rather than diatribe.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Sep 2020, 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Teach51
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29 Sep 2020, 8:28 am

How do we make the validation and support of struggling members the rule rather than the exception?

The members who invalidate and belittle the OP's state do it in such a way that they are not actually breaking the rules but do manage to break the OP's spirit.
I agree that it is more often than not unintentional when it occurs. I sincerely hope so.


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Last edited by Teach51 on 29 Sep 2020, 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

magz
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29 Sep 2020, 8:31 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't have been diagnosed with Asperger's under any circumstances. In fact, I was diagnosed with "infantile autism" back in the 1960s. Infantile autism had no "Aspergian"-type subtype. Most people with that diagnosis would, at least, be considered for permanent institutionalization.

In some of the subfora here, intellectual debate is the norm. People use various techniques to highlight their own point of view, and to dismiss other points of view. It can get rather complex.

People on the "lower end" of the Spectrum might not have experience with this type of debate. And they might not have the ability to be subtle, which is sometimes necessary when presenting a point of view. Thus, people who are inclined towards dismissing others often dismiss and seek to "cancel" "low-functioning" people in debates, thereby making WrongPlanet not a pleasant Site for them.

People who are supposedly "low-functioning" tend to be easier to talk to when you are not feeling your best. They don't try to knock you down at every opportunity. And they have interesting viewpoints on things. I wish they were more prominent in this Site.

It can be even more complex. Some of both the "lower functioning" and "higher functioning" enjoy intellectual debates but their social difficulties put them in trouble when doing it.
Then, human tendencies to form teams and "fight the bad guys" make it much, much worse.
It's so hard not to fall into that trap!


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