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Edna3362
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08 Nov 2020, 2:44 am

Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Let's see...

Meltdown = Distress + Trigger
Tantrum = Distress + Trigger

Meltdown - Distress = Shutdown?Exhaustion?
Tantrum - Distress = Wanting/Bargain...

Meltdown - Trigger = ?Anxiety?Overwhelm?
Tantrum - Trigger = NONE?Craving?



Hmmm... :lol: :lol:

Don't think so as far as I'm concerned Meltdown = Tantrum
and like the ones kids throw to try to manipulate there parents aren't true tantrums. AFter all they are faking it. Idk about the whole meltdown shutdown connection it idk enough about shutdowns. Meltdown - trigger wouldnt' be anxiety or overwhelmed because that si the trigger??

Does this mean... 'Tantrums' are also 'intentionally' are done alone? In secret? Too?

Without any other human presences to attract attention and manipulate? :lol:
Without any explicit or implicit messages to be received by any other party?



The nature of anxiety itself;
While it can be a trigger by itself, but also the anticipation of supposedly and yet to exist unwanted trigger.


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08 Nov 2020, 2:54 am

KT67 wrote:
I hate the way certain NTs have used this word.

It means something specific.

It is physically painful for those experiencing it.

It is not just a tantrum.

They need to stop using our word like that.


Yes.
I agree.
Death to all allistics. Bwahahahahahaha! :twisted: :mrgreen:



Pieplup
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08 Nov 2020, 3:10 am

Edna3362 wrote:
Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Let's see...

Meltdown = Distress + Trigger
Tantrum = Distress + Trigger

Meltdown - Distress = Shutdown?Exhaustion?
Tantrum - Distress = Wanting/Bargain...

Meltdown - Trigger = ?Anxiety?Overwhelm?
Tantrum - Trigger = NONE?Craving?



Hmmm... :lol: :lol:

Don't think so as far as I'm concerned Meltdown = Tantrum
and like the ones kids throw to try to manipulate there parents aren't true tantrums. AFter all they are faking it. Idk about the whole meltdown shutdown connection it idk enough about shutdowns. Meltdown - trigger wouldnt' be anxiety or overwhelmed because that si the trigger??

Does this mean... 'Tantrums' are also 'intentionally' are done alone? In secret? Too?

Without any other human presences to attract attention and manipulate? :lol:
Without any explicit or implicit messages to be received by any other party?



The nature of anxiety itself;
While it can be a trigger by itself, but also the anticipation of supposedly and yet to exist unwanted trigger.

i'm confused. The anticipation of the meltdown would be the trigger ? I don't know if it's the anxiety itself that's the trigger. I think it more has to do with the stress. I can't remember having a meltdown where i was alone. But I see no reason why the none fake tantrums wouldn't happen when no ones around but as I've never personally had a meltdown while i was entirely alone. And most toddlers are supervised I can't say for sure. I think also for me specifically unless something unusual happened i'd never meltdown if i was alone because when i meltdown My main instinct is to go away from other people and be alone. It really depends on the context. As far as the fake tantrums there'd be no reason for them to happen alone as it'd be to manipulate someone.


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Edna3362
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08 Nov 2020, 3:52 am

Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Let's see...

Meltdown = Distress + Trigger
Tantrum = Distress + Trigger

Meltdown - Distress = Shutdown?Exhaustion?
Tantrum - Distress = Wanting/Bargain...

Meltdown - Trigger = ?Anxiety?Overwhelm?
Tantrum - Trigger = NONE?Craving?



Hmmm... :lol: :lol:

Don't think so as far as I'm concerned Meltdown = Tantrum
and like the ones kids throw to try to manipulate there parents aren't true tantrums. AFter all they are faking it. Idk about the whole meltdown shutdown connection it idk enough about shutdowns. Meltdown - trigger wouldnt' be anxiety or overwhelmed because that si the trigger??

Does this mean... 'Tantrums' are also 'intentionally' are done alone? In secret? Too?

Without any other human presences to attract attention and manipulate? :lol:
Without any explicit or implicit messages to be received by any other party?



The nature of anxiety itself;
While it can be a trigger by itself, but also the anticipation of supposedly and yet to exist unwanted trigger.

i'm confused. The anticipation of the meltdown would be the trigger ? I don't know if it's the anxiety itself that's the trigger. I think it more has to do with the stress. I can't remember having a meltdown where i was alone. But I see no reason why the none fake tantrums wouldn't happen when no ones around but as I've never personally had a meltdown while i was entirely alone. And most toddlers are supervised I can't say for sure. I think also for me specifically unless something unusual happened i'd never meltdown if i was alone because when i meltdown My main instinct is to go away from other people and be alone. It really depends on the context. As far as the fake tantrums there'd be no reason for them to happen alone as it'd be to manipulate someone.

It says a lot in your account.
Contrasting in my own account; most of my 'tantrums' are done alone.

Because I have the power to walk behind my parents' backs and impose privacy...
Because I was sick of 'tantruming' and helplessly getting unwanted attention.

Them not knowing what I want and me getting it without their knowledge.
That includes my inabilities, my needs as an autistic even.
Let alone the idea of making everyone cave in my desires.

Very unlike most autistic accounts -- not all autistics as children had the same means to react this way...
All they know is that I'm moody and not yet necessarily helpless.



Yes, overly anticipating everything is a trigger and can cause stress that leads to meltdown.
And yes, that includes the prospect of ever having a meltdown can be a trigger by itself or at least a contributing factor.

Also... People are not the only 'triggers' or cause of meltdowns.
It's just a, if not the very common major contributer because people themselves are more unpredictable and more active...
And cause more stress than dealing with the otherwise passive environment or self alone.



... And yes, my biggest trigger is my own body and mind's vulnerability, than the environment alone or others.
My biggest frustrations lies with myself than anything else, and thankfully it doesn't involve self loathing.

I'd likely have a meltdown over a headache/illness/sickness or itch/irritant or my own clumsiness and inabilities to control -- alone or otherwise -- than an intense environment, or crowd full of chatter on top of that or failing expectations of not getting what I want from others.

Which says a lot in my account...


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KT67
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08 Nov 2020, 5:04 am

Toddler tantrums tend to be the manipulative type.

They are perfectly fine for a child who has no other outlet and who has only just learnt to talk.

Adults shouldn't be throwing them though. If it's based on emotion alone and you're not mentally ill, calm down, take some time to be upset alone, then come into the discussion calmly.

Anticipate that you might not get your way and that is OK.

Autistic adults should avoid meltdowns where possible but they're not 100% under our control. I avoid them by not deliberately going places which will affect my senses negatively. I had very few meltdowns last year. Just like some people (myself included) ought to avoid alcohol.

Adults have meltdowns and it is entirely age appropriate.


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08 Nov 2020, 6:02 am

KT67 wrote:
Toddler tantrums tend to be the manipulative type.

They are perfectly fine for a child who has no other outlet and who has only just learnt to talk.

Adults shouldn't be throwing them though. If it's based on emotion alone and you're not mentally ill, calm down, take some time to be upset alone, then come into the discussion calmly.

Anticipate that you might not get your way and that is OK.

Autistic adults should avoid meltdowns where possible but they're not 100% under our control. I avoid them by not deliberately going places which will affect my senses negatively. I had very few meltdowns last year. Just like some people (myself included) ought to avoid alcohol.

Adults have meltdowns and it is entirely age appropriate.
Firstly, Autistic people aren't mentally ill. You seem to be incredibly biased on the topic. It's completely wrong to say that and also hurts autistic people because it implies it can be cured. Secondly that temper tantrum thing is just not true. I'd also like to point out that you can hold off meltdowns. So You have a choice. Secondly also there's this thing where you kinda grow out of meltdowns.
p.s. Edna There seems to be some miscommunication going on all I'm saying is the anticipation itself isn't the trigger it's the distress.


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08 Nov 2020, 6:23 am

No, I'm saying that tantrums are different to meltdowns and both autistic people and allistic people without mental illnesses (some of us have mental illnesses on both sides of that divide) who are adults should be mature enough not to have tantrums.

Meltdowns can be avoided by not going places with excess lighting and other sensory stimulous.

However sometimes those sensory stimuli can be a surprise. For eg I went to a play with no lighting and people started getting out their phones and taking pictures with the flash on.

I had to leave.

I notice that nowadays programs on Netflix are warning photosensitive viewers. That never used to happen in the past.

Tantrums = mommy I want a toy/public I want the White House
Meltdowns = please god let this stinging pain in my eyes stop! I have my darkest glasses on and it's still getting through!


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08 Nov 2020, 6:29 am

KT67 wrote:
No, I'm saying that tantrums are different to meltdowns and both autistic people and allistic people without mental illnesses (some of us have mental illnesses on both sides of that divide) who are adults should be mature enough not to have tantrums.

Meltdowns can be avoided by not going places with excess lighting and other sensory stimulous.

However sometimes those sensory stimuli can be a surprise. For eg I went to a play with no lighting and people started getting out their phones and taking pictures with the flash on.

I had to leave.

I notice that nowadays programs on Netflix are warning photosensitive viewers. That never used to happen in the past.

Tantrums = mommy I want a toy/public I want the White House
Meltdowns = please god let this stinging pain in my eyes stop! I have my darkest glasses on and it's still getting through!

Your letting bias cloud your view that's not what tantrums are.


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Edna3362
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08 Nov 2020, 7:07 am

Pieplup wrote:

p.s. Edna There seems to be some miscommunication going on all I'm saying is the anticipation itself isn't the trigger it's the distress.

Oki. We shall try again.


Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Let's see...

Meltdown = Distress + Trigger
Tantrum = Distress + Trigger

Meltdown - Distress = Shutdown?Exhaustion?
Tantrum - Distress = Wanting/Bargain...

Meltdown - Trigger = ?Anxiety?Overwhelm?
Tantrum - Trigger = NONE?Craving?



Hmmm... :lol: :lol:

Don't think so as far as I'm concerned Meltdown = Tantrum
and like the ones kids throw to try to manipulate there parents aren't true tantrums. AFter all they are faking it. Idk about the whole meltdown shutdown connection it idk enough about shutdowns. Meltdown - trigger wouldnt' be anxiety or overwhelmed because that si the trigger??

If Meltdown = Tantrums...
Then meltdowns are never done alone, because tantrums are never done alone?
Assuming all meltdowns always have the outward behaviors of tantrums?

Do all meltdowns even have outward behaviors?

Meltdown minus trigger; assuming this meant external trigger.
So where did the distress came from? :lol: It's not exclusive to the environment or interactions, nor involving any other parties.

So, who to manipulate when alone? And with no apparent reasons on top of that?



Connection between a meltdown and a shutdown;
Same thing fundamentally, yet different emotional and then behavioral outcomes.

Both involuntary, both overwhelming, both confusing and losing one's adaptive skills.

The former is violent, loud and hot; it can look fight and flight.
The latter is internalized, silent and unmoving, it can appear flight and freeze... Unless someone likes to interpret non-response and retreat as 'fight'. :roll:

If you meant 'outgrow' meltdowns, it would likely meant prevent the raging emotions and behaviors of meltdowns by shutting down.
As opposed to 'outgrow' by developing higher stress tolerance and learning stress management levels of avoiding meltdowns and shutdowns in the first place, which not all autistics could regardless of 'functioning levels'.

Shutting down is not any better to an autistic, but it is better for anyone else's sake.
Also it IS a more mature reaction to stress and overstimulation.

Maybe I'll figure or find the main difference, which is which likely to go on instead of another.


Twisting the sense of logic a bit further...

If Meltdowns = Tantrums...
Then shutdowns are also tantrums?
Assuming people interprets non-response and spacing out as acting out?


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08 Nov 2020, 9:13 am

Meltdown definitions:

From Merriam-Webster:

"(Entry 1 of 2) 1 : the accidental melting of the core of a nuclear reactor. 2 : a rapid or disastrous decline or collapse. 3 : a breakdown of self-control (as from fatigue or overstimulation)"

From Oxford Dictionary:

"A disastrous event, especially a rapid fall in share prices.
‘the 1987 stock market meltdown’

1. informal An outburst of severe emotional distress; a nervous breakdown.

2. An accident in a nuclear reactor in which the fuel overheats and melts the reactor core or shielding.

‘I was 21 years old and it was three days after the partial meltdown of the reactor core.’"

I don't see how a word in general use, with other definitions, can belong specifically to one group. Also, language is fluid. Words can take on multiple meanings and can be used in a slang sense or as hyperbole. If a person says they had a "meltdown" in casual conversation, they aren't necessarily going to check if it fits the more specific definition of an autistic meltdown.

If a person tries to tell someone that their meltdown is just a tantrum, that's different, but I wouldn't say the problem is that the word "meltdown" doesn't belong to NTs, but rather that they are not properly understanding what's happening the person having the meltdown.



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08 Nov 2020, 10:43 am

I will try to shed some light on this sensitive topic from a third-party's perspective...First of all, WE MUST BE CAREFUL WITH WORDS, because they have CONNOTATIONS or hidden meanings...Allow me to share with you all a fun example: In mainstream media, BEAUTIFUL really means tall and blond; CUTE really means pretty and short; GORGEOUS really means pretty and old, SEXY really means pretty and easy...and the list goes on and on...Because of these hidden and sometimes NEGATIVE connotations associated with a word, one must be very careful NOT to use TANTRUM and MELTDOWN interchangeably, especially when discussing AUTISM...It's like stating that CHILDISH and CHILDLIKE are synonymous...Far from the truth (Please look-up in dictionary)...Having said all of the above, please allow me to clarify the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown...A tantrum is typically associated with a toddler's immature behavior, understandably so as they have yet to learn to express their discontent in a proper, civil manner...A tantrum, however, is not exclusive to children...I once witnessed a teenager at a middle school who threw a fit at the discipline office, because she was referred there for a dress-code violation...Suffice to say, she got her way by calling her attorney-father who threatened to suit the school district...This, to me, is an example of a tantrum wherein the ILL-INTENT in the form of MANIPULATION is clear...And although i have NOT witnessed an adult's tantrum, i suspect that most cases of road-rage, especially those involving the use of a firearm, are adult-tantrums, definitely INTENTIONAL...Contrary to a MELTDOWN which is NOT DELIBERATE...How do i know this with certainty?...Sadly, i have witnessed my beloved (Aspie) husband's meltdowns...In a period of abrupt changes, frequent misunderstandings leading to conflict, and an uncertain future, my poor husband experienced a series of meltdowns to the breaking point...At one time, his body trembled uncontrollably...At other time, he was unable to open his eye lids...At other time, he space-out and forcefully collapsed to the ground, apparently losing concieousness, similar to a seizure...Above, i specified, "to the breaking-point", because he experienced an episode of psychosis, wherein he apparently lost touch with reality for what i estimate to have been 4 hours...I am beyond happy to report to you all here that it has been close to two years without any such incidents...Marriage has been very beneficial health-wise for him...If you have read this far, thank you...You are now better able to appreciate the clear difference between a tantrum and a meltdown...A MELTDOWN IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE CONTROLLED AND THEREFORE THERE IS NO ILL-INTENT, NO FORM OF MANIPULATION...And last but not least, any human being can experience a breakdown at a certain point in their life due to extreme emotional distress...I suppose--and i do not know for sure, because i did not go to medical school--breakdowns differ in that these last much longer...To the extent that the patient may end-up in a psychiatric clinic for months or years...I sincerely hope that i have contributed to this sensitive topic in a non-biased and meaningful way...Forever in love with my beloved husband who just happens to be the most handsome Aspie... :heart: :heart: :heart:



Last edited by Clueless2017 on 08 Nov 2020, 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Nov 2020, 12:29 pm

NTs often use the term 'meltdowns' to mean crying or breaking down. I remember an NT colleague at a previous job sat and cried because she got too stressed at work, and the next day she was telling everyone that she had a meltdown yesterday.


Tantrums aren't the only expression of communication a toddler can do. Every time I enter a supermarket there is always at least one toddler crying loudly, and it's not always because they want a toy or candy that they can't have. Sometimes the cry means "I am bored or overwhelmed in this place, so I'm just going to misbehave for my parents, for no particular reason". Sometimes toddlers can get grizzly if they are in a low mood, and can just totally melt down without actually wanting anything.


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08 Nov 2020, 1:22 pm

Joe90 wrote:
NTs often use the term 'meltdowns' to mean crying or breaking down. I remember an NT colleague at a previous job sat and cried because she got too stressed at work, and the next day she was telling everyone that she had a meltdown yesterday.


Tantrums aren't the only expression of communication a toddler can do. Every time I enter a supermarket there is always at least one toddler crying loudly, and it's not always because they want a toy or candy that they can't have. Sometimes the cry means "I am bored or overwhelmed in this place, so I'm just going to misbehave for my parents, for no particular reason". Sometimes toddlers can get grizzly if they are in a low mood, and can just totally melt down without actually wanting anything.

... ... ...
NT, here, totally agrees with you...A baby crying could mean he or she is hungry, or that her stomach hurts...This is not to be confused with a tantrum which is manipulative in nature...And a meltdown in the case of an NT is nowhere close to the way an Autistic would experience it...We should definitely make this distinction...Thank you for your insight :heart: :heart: :heart:



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08 Nov 2020, 1:36 pm

Clueless2017 wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
NTs often use the term 'meltdowns' to mean crying or breaking down. I remember an NT colleague at a previous job sat and cried because she got too stressed at work, and the next day she was telling everyone that she had a meltdown yesterday.


Tantrums aren't the only expression of communication a toddler can do. Every time I enter a supermarket there is always at least one toddler crying loudly, and it's not always because they want a toy or candy that they can't have. Sometimes the cry means "I am bored or overwhelmed in this place, so I'm just going to misbehave for my parents, for no particular reason". Sometimes toddlers can get grizzly if they are in a low mood, and can just totally melt down without actually wanting anything.

... ... ...
NT, here, totally agrees with you...A baby crying could mean he or she is hungry, or that her stomach hurts...This is not to be confused with a tantrum which is manipulative in nature...And a meltdown in the case of an NT is nowhere close to the way an Autistic would experience it...We should definitely make this distinction...Thank you for your insight :heart: :heart: :heart:


Clueless2017, so glad you're still around! :) :) :heart:

Sometimes toddlers carry on crying even after they have got what they wanted. When I was a teenager and my (NT) cousin was 3 I was in the supermarket with him and my aunt, and he kept being naughty so his mum said "right, you're not having any candy!" He threw himself on the floor and cried. In the end his mum did buy him some candy, but it didn't stop his crying. It seemed that he got himself into that bad-tempered sort of mood even though he had got what he was crying for in the first place. His mum even said, "you've got your candy, so what do you want?" But he wouldn't say, he just kept whining and crying at nothing.
It's what we call "the terrible two's", which can typically occur around 1-4 years old. Some children grow out of it by age 4 but others don't until they reach 5 or 6. It's not so normal for a child over 7 to still be in the terrible two's phase, but children with developmental disorders such as autism, ADHD, learning difficulties or Fragile-X can still be in the terrible two's phase (I'm not talking about autism meltdowns, just general tantrumish behaviour). Or children that aren't brought up properly or are suffering a physical illness like cancer. But that's different.


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08 Nov 2020, 2:07 pm

My personal opinion; no tangents or dissecting thoughts and all...


I could've care less even if it's called demonic possession. :lol:
Because damn words and wording, and that's just the English bit of labeling behaviors.

My native terms had an even more confusing distinction over the act of crying over things, or conveying distress


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08 Nov 2020, 2:16 pm

Pieplup wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Let's see...

Meltdown = Distress + Trigger
Tantrum = Distress + Trigger

Meltdown - Distress = Shutdown?Exhaustion?
Tantrum - Distress = Wanting/Bargain...

Meltdown - Trigger = ?Anxiety?Overwhelm?
Tantrum - Trigger = NONE?Craving?



Hmmm... :lol: :lol:

Don't think so as far as I'm concerned Meltdown = Tantrum
and like the ones kids throw to try to manipulate there parents aren't true tantrums. AFter all they are faking it. Idk about the whole meltdown shutdown connection it idk enough about shutdowns. Meltdown - trigger wouldnt' be anxiety or overwhelmed because that si the trigger??


A very young child's tantrum may well be a meltdown. They'll be fixated, overwhelmed, struggling/unable to communicate and unable to see past the current situation. Sounds like the situation that results in a meltdown.

A child who's old enough to understand that a tantrum can exert pressure and potentially serve as a bargaining chip isn't really melting down, they're just choosing to act that way.


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