'You should be out having fun at your age'

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Demonic_Duck
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22 Jul 2007, 11:05 am

Alicorn wrote:
If someone truly believes that all the enjoyment and happiness in their life is behind them and only misery is in front of them, then they should kill themselves.

Not necessarilly. That can simply be caused by depression, which is curable. The only sound reason for suicide is if you have considered carefully the facts and come to a logical conclusion that, to be blunt, "your life sucks". But feelings like that can pass, so you have to think carefully about it first. The other sound reason is terminal illness (but that kinda fits within the "your life sucks" category anyways).



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22 Jul 2007, 12:35 pm

Pugly wrote:
I always thought it strange when people assume their ideas of "fun" applies to everyone.

They say those with AS lack "theory of mind." But it astounds me how often everyone projects their expectations and desires onto others.


I agree. I always hated parties, so why go? I don't particularly enjoy getting drunk and it does nothing for my social skills (makes them worse, in fact), so why do it? I never liked dancing, so why dance? Why do team sports, when I find them boring, pointless and stressful? People seem indignant, scandalised that I don't share their idea of fun - and they say we don't do empathy.


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22 Jul 2007, 10:51 pm

I used to worry about "missing out on life," but I agree with you guys. If you don't enjoy parties, why force yourself to go? Unless you suddenly at some time in the future start enjoying parties, I doubt you'll have any regrets related to your introverted ways.



Alicorn
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22 Jul 2007, 11:15 pm

Demonic_Duck wrote:
Alicorn wrote:
If someone truly believes that all the enjoyment and happiness in their life is behind them and only misery is in front of them, then they should kill themselves.

Not necessarilly. That can simply be caused by depression...


Depression happens after the value judgement, not before.

A person first thinks about what lies ahead of them in life (which can be silly since no one can *know* the future). Then they come to conclusions about what events will occur or conditions will be present. Next they choose to attach a value judgement to these events or conditions. It is this value judgement that makes the thing good or bad and hence weather the peron will be happy or sad about things.

Certainly depression (or any emotional state) can cloud one's judgement regarding what will or will not happen in the future. But once again, even if I have the incorrect conclusion that DOOM is coming, I would still have to choose to attach the value judgement that DOOM is bad.

I continue to use the word choose because people can make a different choice regarding anything in their lives. Maybe I will die tomorrow, but it is only my belief that death is bad that would make death fearful. If I make a different choice then death is not so bad. How many parents wouldn't charge into death with a smile on their face and a song in their heart if they believe it would save their children? If their ghosts could be questioned would they not say their death was a good and happy thing becuase their children lived?

I have sleep apnea and my doctor often asks me if I am depressed and I tell him "no". This is not some act of denial this is me making a choice of how to interperate the way my body feels. Sure I may have a bad day and feel horrible and have a headace, but this is only 'bad' if I choose to believe it is bad. It can only make me feel sad if I choose to believe it should make me feel sad.

Unhappiness, pain, depression = pwnd.



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23 Jul 2007, 12:16 am

TheMachine1 wrote:
Needless to say I had close to zero ability to change anything.

Same here.

Sad indeed.

I've tried and nothing I do works. Then my parents say I don't even try.



sandra3
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23 Jul 2007, 12:26 am

my mom tells me the usual, " why are you such a grouch", " im older than you and have more energy", " you should have fun at your age". idk where she gets the grouch thing, but I have every right to feel a little depressed some time or not want to talk to her at all even though its only us two living together. I'm definitly not a crowd person ,but I do love to dance. My idea of fun is reading, music ,the pc, or sleeping for long periods. If it's not that I take myself out. She know of AS all these year since I was in school she's tried to understand me and fight to get help for me. Still she complains even after all the reading and studying of the problem.



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23 Jul 2007, 8:48 am

markaudette wrote:
And I reply to this person: "But I am having fun doing what I'm doing."


I wished I'd have thought to say that when I was younger.


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SpellBound
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23 Jul 2007, 10:34 am

Alicorn wrote:

Depression happens after the value judgement, not before.

A person first thinks about what lies ahead of them in life (which can be silly since no one can *know* the future). Then they come to conclusions about what events will occur or conditions will be present. Next they choose to attach a value judgement to these events or conditions. It is this value judgement that makes the thing good or bad and hence weather the peron will be happy or sad about things.


Alicorn, I have to call you out on this.

There are over 100 chemicals that run though and work in our brain. These chemicals have to be at (or close to) certain levels. If some of these chemicals get too high or too low an imbalance can occur.

For example, different types of schizophrenia are associated with an imbalance of dopamine (too much) and serotonin (poorly regulated) in certain areas of the brain. Same goes for depression – a chemical imbalance is often associated with the condition; we do know that certain medications that alter the levels of norepinephrine or serotonin can alleviate the symptoms of depression.

Is all depression a sign of a chemical imbalance? Of course not. Some are as you claim, but NOT all and it is very important to see that often, many times matter of fact, in more cases then not, it is a PHYSICAL (chemical) problem that causes the MENTAL (depression) issues.

Not always is it a “grim” view of the future the cause of depression, many times it goes beyond “feelings” or “impressions” and your statement of : “Depression happens after the value judgment, not before.” Is 100% false. In reality, MANY TIMES, “the value judgment” is impaired, misconceived or altered by the chemical imbalance first.

People do not "choose" a chemical imbalance. Your definition of depression is a very emotional one, using words like unhappiness and pain, I noticed in you profile that you were unclear or unsure as to your diagnosis, your emotional understanding of definition may be an indicator that you should think about.

With best wishes.



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23 Jul 2007, 10:54 am

For any that doubt it, SpellBound is 100% RIGHT! There have been times everything seemed to be going well for me and I STILL seemed suicidal! As for the times I was depressed with a reason, that is rarely due to a "value judgement". I is usually due to my simply feeling bad about myself, or my predicament. HECK, SOMETIMES it is because I have GOOD values!

Steve



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24 Jul 2007, 4:45 am

SteveK wrote:
For any that doubt it, SpellBound is 100% RIGHT! There have been times everything seemed to be going well for me and I STILL seemed suicidal! As for the times I was depressed with a reason, that is rarely due to a "value judgement". I is usually due to my simply feeling bad about myself, or my predicament. HECK, SOMETIMES it is because I have GOOD values!

Steve
I agree: although I've had a fair amount of reactive depression in my life, I also feel somewhat depressed most of the time and have been told by a number of medical professionals that it is caused by a chemical imbalance: either a lack of serotonin in the brain or that the serotonin I do have is chewed up too fast.


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24 Jul 2007, 1:47 pm

Demonic_Duck wrote:
You should be having fun at any age. But having fun doesn't mean conforming to other peoples' ideas of what "fun" means.

Whether "fun" for you means climbing trees, reading maths textbooks, playing computer games, going to parties, working, reading a good book, hiking... or anything else... just do it! As long as it ain't hurting anyone else, there's no harm in it. Different people have a different concept of "fun".


Thats how I see it. I hate it when people say that we should be out having "fun" when what they really mean is "Go to a party and get smashed." Now I'm not saying that theres anything wrong with that, but thats the way I see it when people talk about going out for fun.


People's view of what is fun differs from the next person. Personally, I don't feel like I'm missing out, because I allready do things that interest me. I prefer to stay home and relax, watch movies, play videogames, go for walks, or do anything that will help me come up with ideas for scripts.


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25 Jul 2007, 12:21 am

I don't think people mean to say you should be getting drunk, so much as experiment and enjoy being young. When high school- and college-aged, people explore who they are, look into different interests and so on, make what will probably be the best friends and contacts of their life, and so on--it seems people here know exactly what they like, and that's that. Though there may be advantages to being ASD, I don't see how we aren't missing out in being so closed-off.



Alicorn
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25 Jul 2007, 12:59 am

SpellBound wrote:
Not always is it a “grim” view of the future the cause of depression, many times it goes beyond “feelings” or “impressions” and your statement of : “Depression happens after the value judgment, not before.” Is 100% false. In reality, MANY TIMES, “the value judgment” is impaired, misconceived or altered by the chemical imbalance first.

People do not "choose" a chemical imbalance. Your definition of depression is a very emotional one


A chemical imbalance is not a choice any more than cancer is a choice (for the most part anyhow). What I do have a choice over is if I believe that cancer is bad. What I also have a choice over is if the states a chemical imbalance put me in are also good or bad. (On a side note there has never been established a clear "cause" for Clinical Depression, but I'll let the chem-thing slide.)

The concept I am trying to decribe here is a very subtle one, and easily missed. So I'll illustrate by example of what I'm talking about:

Let's pretend there is some pill that I can swallow that will give me suicidal thought for the next 4 hours. If I take this pill would it make me depressed? Maybe...

The suicidal thoughs by themselves are neither good nor bad, they simply are what they are. They are thoughts, they are impressions that exist inside a brain. A suicidal thought is only good or bad if a person ALSO attachs a value judement to it.

suicidal thought = neutral

suicidal thought + value judgement = good/bad

This is a very powerful point here. Remove the value judgement and the "good" or "bad" go away. Because I've swallowed this magical pill I may have no choice in having suicidal thoughts, but I do have the choice to believe if these thoughts are good, bad, or indifferent. On the same note I may have unfufilled sexual desires but that is only good or bad if I believe it is good or bad.

So I may still have suicidal thoughts or be seuxally frustrated, but it is my impressions of these things and not the things themselves that disturb me.

M. Aurelius wrote:
Get rid of the judgement, get rid of the 'I am hurt,' and you are rid of the hurt itself.


Certaily some poeple will need the crutch of an anti-depressent to help them though this, just like a man with a broken leg may need a crutch. But it is anti-depressents with Cognitive Behavioural Therapy has shown itself to be among the most effective means of combatting depression.

Guess what? CBT views of depression and emotions are similar to the ones I've expressed here so far. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_ ... al_therapy

Similar views are also shared by the Stoics and Socrates, and I'm sure I could drone on about 'first impressions' and 'prefered indifferants' and have pages full of more material (and spellcheck!), but I won't because it's almost 2am and I'm sure you have google.

SpellBound wrote:
I noticed in you profile that you were unclear or unsure as to your diagnosis, your emotional understanding of definition may be an indicator that you should think about.


While this may explain where my argument has come from, it does not make my argument more or less valid. Be it intentional or not, no shame-tactic will work on me.



SpellBound
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25 Jul 2007, 12:42 pm

Stoics and Socrates - as brilliant as they were, medically they were very far behind. The stoics and Socrates knew very little about blood paths, norepinephrine or serotonin. Their medical classifications of people consisted of sane and loony and nothing in between.

All I am saying is the body can lead the mind. As impossible as it may seem, not always does our mind truly control us, when it comes to depression and a slew of other mental disorders MANY times it is the body (chemistry) creating the circumstance. Not always, of course. Your statement that the "Depression happens after the value judgment, not before" is just not true in all cases.


While this may explain [i]where my argument has come from, it does not make my argument more or less valid. Be it intentional or not, no shame-tactic will work on me.[/i]

No shame tactic was intended, I do apologize if it came off that way. My husband has Asperger's and I have the habit of measuring others against him. Your emotion filled definition of depression was so opposite something he'd ever say or think, I just thought you'd like to know. Beyond that, and only pointing out more emotion, he'd not take my state as a shaming. Again, I apologize.



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25 Jul 2007, 9:20 pm

The operative word in the sentence is OUT. Half of the time, people who say it want you OUT of the house, OUT of the way. They dont particularly care wtf you end up doing or whether its fun.

And yes, beer is, if not a cure, then a treatment, because its a social de-inhibitor. If they could refine alchohol so it lacked the bad parts of drinking.. the liver damage, the lack of co-ordination etc.. so it was JUST a social de-inhibitor.. it would be the greatest medication for Aspies known to mankind.


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