Have people said "you don't try hard enough"?

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Pteranomom
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26 Apr 2022, 11:13 am

All the darn time, but mostly I think that's because I have this one entitled jerk I have to deal with. You can go above and beyond for some people and it still will never be enough.



Rexi
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26 Apr 2022, 11:50 am

Rexi wrote:
Jayo wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
That sounds like a good question to ask?

Are the responses you get useful?


Ehh...not really. :( At least they don't get aggressive. They'd typically just mutter some "by now" statement, e.g. "well, you would have gotten the hang of (insert NT-centric activity bias) BY NOW".
And then I'd come back with "So how do you attribute that to lack of effort?"
And then silence for a few seconds, and again some other mealy-mouthed, uninformed response.

Oh my god, happens a lot to me. Exactly like that. They get aggressive, whisper behind my back and have like a mood change towards me that's constant.

To be more explicit, I actually had the following happen, for curiosity's sake:
They eventually accept that I can't do it, but then they say, well then why doesnt she leave the spot for someone who can do it. But they dont understand what it means to actually want to change and work towards it, and that its a slow process, the process towards change. It doesnt happen overnight, but doesnt mean its impossible or like people don't intend to do it. Mom says they dont have patience and keep dropping people before they have a chance to get used to it, and it doesnt only happen to people like me. So in a way theyre hurting their own chances at the same time, or they think that if they keep on searching theyll find exactly the person who knows how to do everything the way they want it. But its not like that, and companies shouldnt look at it from a point of view of humans being expending resources, like unimportant. They should look at it from a bigger image POV, how can we fix our issue and fix this persons issues as well as fixing societys issue with employment. 3 wins in one hit, can we be that productive and responsible? Does the way we as a company function fix things or creates them, or further propels them towards someone who one day will?


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CrazyEspy
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26 Apr 2022, 1:09 pm

Jayo wrote:
klanka wrote:

If you feel like you have tried, and someone says you haven't, they could simply be messing with you.


Yeah, I completely agree with this!! If some streetwise bullies who have acute ToM sense that you're sensitive about your struggles and being invalidated in spite of them, they will lie or exaggerate to make you feel crappy. Sure, it's not the same as having a school bully punch you in the shoulder or shove you into a locker, but these adult bullies who pull this crap make you feel just as full of consternation and angst :x :evil:

In those cases, it's best to follow-up with a question that puts THEM on the spot: "How did you conclude that I wasn't trying hard enough? By what objective measure?"


It's same sort of psychological game behind telling someone that they are this or that when clearly they are not. It doesn't matter what the person accusing the other has to say or how ridiculous it is as long as this person has perceived social power over the other, the person isn't going to be able to do anything to defend themselves and every attempt to will just make them look worse. It's just a classic social hierarchy head game and the best move is not to play.



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26 Apr 2022, 6:19 pm

CrazyEspy wrote:
Jayo wrote:
klanka wrote:

If you feel like you have tried, and someone says you haven't, they could simply be messing with you.


Yeah, I completely agree with this!! If some streetwise bullies who have acute ToM sense that you're sensitive about your struggles and being invalidated in spite of them, they will lie or exaggerate to make you feel crappy. Sure, it's not the same as having a school bully punch you in the shoulder or shove you into a locker, but these adult bullies who pull this crap make you feel just as full of consternation and angst :x :evil:

In those cases, it's best to follow-up with a question that puts THEM on the spot: "How did you conclude that I wasn't trying hard enough? By what objective measure?"


It's same sort of psychological game behind telling someone that they are this or that when clearly they are not. It doesn't matter what the person accusing the other has to say or how ridiculous it is as long as this person has perceived social power over the other, the person isn't going to be able to do anything to defend themselves and every attempt to will just make them look worse. It's just a classic social hierarchy head game and the best move is not to play.


Yeah, why play stupid games that are rigged for someone else to win!! All you can do in that case is go more in "stealth mode", find some dirt on them or something embarrassing to spread around, or find some creative way to get revenge, as long as it's not illegal...

While the behaviour you describe is more associated with the teens, I realize that it can persist into one's twenties and at supposedly mature institutions like university.
8O



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26 Apr 2022, 6:24 pm

Anomaly_76 wrote:
LOL - I get the opposite -- people say I try too hard sometimes. However, I have gotten quite tired and loathsome of the seemingly ageless "You just have to deal with it" "You just have to get in the habit" "You just have to train your brain" I so oft get from a certain family member.


That sounds more than a tad familiar!!

Well, I think the "don't try so hard" line is from those who can't fathom why we expend more mental effort on certain functions - it just doesn't make sense to them, but they don't realize that telling us this would encourage us to make more mistakes - they're thinking from a strictly NT point of view.

I'll give an analogy of a driver who has a mild space-time processing issue, if such a condition exists. Like, it doesn't prevent him from driving, but he feels the need to be extra cautious at times. So when he's waiting to turn left or something and waiting for an opening, he may frustrate others behind him who think "why is he over-thinking this, he's trying too hard, a 'normal' person could see that it was good to go..." - you get the idea.



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26 Apr 2022, 6:31 pm

Rexi wrote:
Rexi wrote:
Jayo wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
That sounds like a good question to ask?

Are the responses you get useful?


Ehh...not really. :( At least they don't get aggressive. They'd typically just mutter some "by now" statement, e.g. "well, you would have gotten the hang of (insert NT-centric activity bias) BY NOW".
And then I'd come back with "So how do you attribute that to lack of effort?"
And then silence for a few seconds, and again some other mealy-mouthed, uninformed response.

Oh my god, happens a lot to me. Exactly like that. They get aggressive, whisper behind my back and have like a mood change towards me that's constant.

To be more explicit, I actually had the following happen, for curiosity's sake:
They eventually accept that I can't do it, but then they say, well then why doesnt she leave the spot for someone who can do it. But they dont understand what it means to actually want to change and work towards it, and that its a slow process, the process towards change. It doesnt happen overnight, but doesnt mean its impossible or like people don't intend to do it. Mom says they dont have patience and keep dropping people before they have a chance to get used to it, and it doesnt only happen to people like me. So in a way theyre hurting their own chances at the same time, or they think that if they keep on searching theyll find exactly the person who knows how to do everything the way they want it. But its not like that, and companies shouldnt look at it from a point of view of humans being expending resources, like unimportant. They should look at it from a bigger image POV, how can we fix our issue and fix this persons issues as well as fixing societys issue with employment. 3 wins in one hit, can we be that productive and responsible? Does the way we as a company function fix things or creates them, or further propels them towards someone who one day will?


I think a big obstacle to our change is the lack of a reliable feedback loop, as I sort of alluded to in a recent separate thread on constructive criticism: often us "Aspies" have a hard time with determining whether someone's feedback is sincere, or is passive-aggressive bullying. Unlike the stereotype of naive Aspies trusting others, I think a lot of us - myself included - are inclined to discount a lot of feedback because we're jaded and cynical from the past. And a lot of outsiders look at this, and see it's a manifestation of mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia - "these people are beyond help, they're crazy, and they reject all attempts at help." :evil:

But there are too sides to every story: the majority's side is not always the accurate one.

I sort of digressed, but I agree in principle with your point, that employers should give enlightened, objective and beneficial coaching, which would also be a tremendous morale-booster for us with ASD/HFA. :)
Too bad that they want a completely socially and practically functional person "yesterday".



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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02 May 2022, 7:10 pm

Jayo wrote:
. . . I think a big obstacle to our change is the lack of a reliable feedback loop, as I sort of alluded to in a recent separate thread on constructive criticism: often us "Aspies" have a hard time with determining whether someone's feedback is sincere, or is passive-aggressive bullying. . .

I remember reading a book by a young doctor and, Holy Cow!, these men and women who start out as new doctors in the emergency don’t get much feedback at all. Perhaps they give some advice to the patient and/or refer them to internal medicine or psychiatry, and they never see the patient again. How no idea how things work out for them.

If someone is starting a rock band or country and western, yes, playing before different audiences, you can get feedback. Although the same set played before different audiences can get widely differing reactions.

Sports is also something which can provide pretty direct feedback, and I think is a large part of its appeal.



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03 May 2022, 1:52 pm

Yes all the time when it came to math. To my Honor's Student Valedictorian brother, I didn't have dyscalculia, I just didn't "try hard enough". I didn't speak to him for MONTHS after he said that.


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Dial1194
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04 May 2022, 6:39 am

A lot of people have said a lot of things to me over the years. I find it's just easier to ignore such comments - those people aren't any kind of authority, they just like to pretend they are.



Jayo
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10 May 2022, 11:33 am

In my teens (and beyond), my intolerant / impatient stepmom would vacillate between "you don't try hard enough" and "you try to hard" when I'd recount some story of social failure and frustration. :x :(

Well, I don't want to get into the stereotypical Aspie thought process of black-and-white thinking, but it begs the question... WHICH FRIGGIN' ONE IS IT???!

I think for the former criticism of "not trying hard enough", it's more lack of effectiveness - whereas the latter is more of a critique on lack of efficiency. That is, you're critiqued for asking "what do you mean by that?" to some ambiguous nuance of what someone said, which peers would be able to pick up on intuitively. So, you might get your answer and more gradually be "on the same page", but it appeared more mechanical and less efficient - you "tried to hard" or you "over-analyzed" the situation (akin to putting the "big picture" together piece by piece, instead of efficiently filtering the right cues and prompts).

I read on another forum somewhere that this lack of social efficiency or "trying too hard" could get you ostracized because you're basically perceived as an affront to the group's norms; you're questioning their efficacy, accuracy and relevance etc., albeit indirectly and not to be a passive-aggressive jerkwad. For one-on-one social dialogue it's less of an issue (because they have nobody else to act as a sounding board, and may question the effectiveness and efficiency of their own communication), but when you're surrounded by 10 or so NT people who instantly get it and you don't... :(