Feel embarrassed that we fail Sallyanne test

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SharonB
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22 Apr 2022, 8:12 am

I have internalized a lot of ableism ---- I should be able to do this "simple" thing as defined by others -mostly NTs. It's a sad state of being. Based on my Autism support groups it seems to lighten up by the early 40s. It has not gone away for me, but it's much better. Joe, I'm sorry you are in so much pain about Autistic characteristics. I wish you could see that in part it's an NT interpretation (ableist). It's exciting that more Autistic people are conducting studies, so hopefully we'll have some that don't lack theory of mind on the researchers' part (not ours). I have even seen my well-meaning NT friends interpret their children's reasonable Autistic actions as defiant or wrong or whatever and all I have to do is suggest that the child "simply" wanted X. Their minds are blown - they don't have the theory of mind to anticipate that. The sallyanne is old school ---- today's studies are about double-blind theory of mind. NTs and ASDs don't think alike and often can't understand/predict each other as well. It goes both ways. It will be fantastic when the ASD way is not wrong or embarrassing. I recently exchanged emails with a doctor and author who is working on creating that culture. New book coming out soon! So excited.



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22 Apr 2022, 7:00 pm

Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


Why are you embarrassed about the Sallyanne test, when there is no evidence that you failed it and quite a lot of evidence that you are capable of practising theory of mind?


Well I probably failed it at age 5 because I probably didn't think, I most likely have just pointed to the box I knew the marble was in. I wish so much that my mum had remembered whether I'd passed it or not.

I don't remember saying here that I passed it at 8.

It just seems weird that small children with downs syndrome pass the Sallyanne test because I thought they'd fail it for other reasons, such as having learning difficulties causing language development delays (as a lot of children with lower IQs can be delayed in language processing compared to their typically developing peers). To pass such tests you need to understand and pay attention to the 'story'.


I'm not sure how you are doing it but you give off a air of superiority and inferiority at the same time. You said you were embarrassed about not passing the Sally-Anne test which was fine and at first I was going to say that there is nothing to be embarassed about. Then you started talking about how people with down syndrome could pass it and people with lower IQ can pass it and asked if people with Alzheimer's could pass it as well. It's as if you are saying that "because of their issues and lower IQ there is no way that they should be able to pass a test that I couldn't because I'm more intelligent and capable than they are!". But then the inferiority comes into play when you have to deal with anything NT related and not meeting the expectations that they place on you(or society I should say).

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and develop at different paces. When you were younger maybe you didn't understand those tests and now you do. Just like others you develop and grow as you navigate through the world. It's not a competition of who can do what, we as people are just trying to get through life as best we can with the cards and resources we were dealt.


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IsabellaLinton
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22 Apr 2022, 8:30 pm

What the heck is a Sallyanne test?



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22 Apr 2022, 9:55 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
What the heck is a Sallyanne test?

Sally Anne Test


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22 Apr 2022, 10:06 pm

Dang man I just looked at that the first time and without thinking thought "oh the box!" geez. Now that I am looking at it more I don't know why I first thought the box lol. Ah well.



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22 Apr 2022, 10:47 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
What the heck is a Sallyanne test?



The Sallyanne test is a game that tests your basic theory of mind skills, which is your ability to understand the thoughts and perspective of other people. It's often used to diagnose children with autism, since individuals with autism have a higher rate of failing the test compared to neurotypical children. For instance, a neurotypical children might pass by 5 or 6, while individuals with autism may not pass the test until they're 10-13 years old.


How it works is simple. There are two girls, Sally and Anne and they both have a doll they play with. Sally has to go to the bathroom and while she does so, she puts the doll inside a purple box for safe keeping. However, while Sally is in the bathroom, Anne takes the doll out of the purple box and puts it inside a golden box instead which is nearby. When Sally returns from the bathroom, which box will she check?

...

...

...

People who pass the test will say the purple box. The reason for this is because even though we (the audience) knows that Anne took the doll out of the purple box and put it in the golden box, Sally doesn't know because she wasn't there to witness it, so she will check where she put it last.

People who fail are unable to grasp this concept, and is a sign of a theory of mind deficit, which is common in people with autism. This is also why many autistic children fail the test. Children with autism will say the golden box because that's where Anne put it, not realizing Sally perspective and point of view.



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22 Apr 2022, 10:52 pm

Hey, maybe Sally knows Anne keeps moving her marble!



IsabellaLinton
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22 Apr 2022, 10:55 pm

Thank you for explaining.
Where I live, "Sally Ann" is a nickname for The Salvation Army so I was really confused.

I've heard of that test before but I don't remember being tested as a child.

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23 Apr 2022, 4:04 am

Quote:
I'm not sure how you are doing it but you give off a air of superiority and inferiority at the same time. You said you were embarrassed about not passing the Sally-Anne test which was fine and at first I was going to say that there is nothing to be embarassed about. Then you started talking about how people with down syndrome could pass it and people with lower IQ can pass it and asked if people with Alzheimer's could pass it as well. It's as if you are saying that "because of their issues and lower IQ there is no way that they should be able to pass a test that I couldn't because I'm more intelligent and capable than they are!". But then the inferiority comes into play when you have to deal with anything NT related and not meeting the expectations that they place on you(or society I should say).


No it's because I don't like being in a minority that separates me from the rest. I feel better when I know we share at least one or two social deficits with another group. Autism makes me feel less human.


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23 Apr 2022, 8:10 am

According to the internet:

In the Sally - Ann test process, after introducing the dolls, the child is asked the control question of recalling their names (the Naming Question). A short skit is then enacted; Sally takes a marble and hides it in her basket. She then "leaves" the room and goes for a walk. While she is away, Anne takes the marble out of Sally's basket and puts it in her own box. Sally is then reintroduced and the child is asked the key question, the Belief Question: "Where will Sally look for her marble?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2% ... e_test.jpg

I probably cannot be much help here. I think differently than most NTs. I look at problems and questions from several different angles. That just takes a little more time than most NTs. But as a result my accuracy is close to 99 percent whereas most NTs work only at around a 55 to 60 percent rate. I just think a little different than most people. This uniqueness is really a great quality to have.


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naturalplastic
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23 Apr 2022, 8:52 am

AquaineBay wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


Why are you embarrassed about the Sallyanne test, when there is no evidence that you failed it and quite a lot of evidence that you are capable of practising theory of mind?


Well I probably failed it at age 5 because I probably didn't think, I most likely have just pointed to the box I knew the marble was in. I wish so much that my mum had remembered whether I'd passed it or not.

I don't remember saying here that I passed it at 8.

It just seems weird that small children with downs syndrome pass the Sallyanne test because I thought they'd fail it for other reasons, such as having learning difficulties causing language development delays (as a lot of children with lower IQs can be delayed in language processing compared to their typically developing peers). To pass such tests you need to understand and pay attention to the 'story'.


I'm not sure how you are doing it but you give off a air of superiority and inferiority at the same time. You said you were embarrassed about not passing the Sally-Anne test which was fine and at first I was going to say that there is nothing to be embarassed about. Then you started talking about how people with down syndrome could pass it and people with lower IQ can pass it and asked if people with Alzheimer's could pass it as well. It's as if you are saying that "because of their issues and lower IQ there is no way that they should be able to pass a test that I couldn't because I'm more intelligent and capable than they are!". But then the inferiority comes into play when you have to deal with anything NT related and not meeting the expectations that they place on you(or society I should say).

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and develop at different paces. When you were younger maybe you didn't understand those tests and now you do. Just like others you develop and grow as you navigate through the world. It's not a competition of who can do what, we as people are just trying to get through life as best we can with the cards and resources we were dealt.


Youre missing the point.

Folks with Downs are generally classified as "mentally retarded". So by definition they are less intelligent than the average person. So there is nothing morally wrong with folks who are not classified as "retarded" (you and I) in assuming that we are smarter than they are.

And thats precisely why things like this are interesting. A downs syndrome person might well be better than I (a mensa member) at reading social situations than I am because Im an aspie and the downs person is not.
++++++++++

But I agree that "alzheimers" is a different bunch of issues. And that Joe shouldnt put that in the mix.

Alzeheimers victims dont loose either book smarts nor street smarts. What they loose is short term memory.

If any of us here on this thread becomes victims of alzheimers when we turn 80 its not going to make you less smart in the usual sense. But it will progressively shorten your short term memory. Even after being diagnosed my mom probably would have passed th SA test with ease, but later on as her alzheimers progressed she probably would have failed, not because of lack of "theory of mind", but because she wouldntve been able to remember the first part of the story long enough to keep track of what was being asked in the second part...wouldnt even remember who Sally was by they time you finished with ann hiding the marble, and asked her 'in which box will Sally look for the marble'.



Joe90
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23 Apr 2022, 11:06 am

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If any of us here on this thread becomes victims of alzheimers when we turn 80 its not going to make you less smart in the usual sense. But it will progressively shorten your short term memory. Even after being diagnosed my mom probably would have passed th SA test with ease, but later on as her alzheimers progressed she probably would have failed, not because of lack of "theory of mind", but because she wouldntve been able to remember the first part of the story long enough to keep track of what was being asked in the second part...wouldnt even remember who Sally was by they time you finished with ann hiding the marble, and asked her 'in which box will Sally look for the marble'.


This is what I meant - failing the Sallyanne test for different reasons other than theory of mind deficiency. Like I thought children with downs syndrome would fail it due to delayed language processing or something else related to intellectual learning disabilities.


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Joe90
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23 Apr 2022, 11:08 am

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If any of us here on this thread becomes victims of alzheimers when we turn 80 its not going to make you less smart in the usual sense. But it will progressively shorten your short term memory. Even after being diagnosed my mom probably would have passed th SA test with ease, but later on as her alzheimers progressed she probably would have failed, not because of lack of "theory of mind", but because she wouldntve been able to remember the first part of the story long enough to keep track of what was being asked in the second part...wouldnt even remember who Sally was by they time you finished with ann hiding the marble, and asked her 'in which box will Sally look for the marble'.


This is what I meant - failing the Sallyanne test for different reasons other than theory of mind deficiency. Like I thought children with downs syndrome would fail it due to delayed language processing or something else related to intellectual learning disabilities.

I also found this interesting piece of information:-

Quote:
Many people with intellectual disabilities (ID, formerly mental retardation), have underdeveloped social skills. This is because the development of social skills relies heavily on certain intellectual abilities. Social skills enable people to function well in any social situation.


So if a non-autistic person has any kind of intellectual developmental disability, it's naturally going to affect their social development in some way.


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23 Apr 2022, 6:12 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
AquaineBay wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


Why are you embarrassed about the Sallyanne test, when there is no evidence that you failed it and quite a lot of evidence that you are capable of practising theory of mind?


Well I probably failed it at age 5 because I probably didn't think, I most likely have just pointed to the box I knew the marble was in. I wish so much that my mum had remembered whether I'd passed it or not.

I don't remember saying here that I passed it at 8.

It just seems weird that small children with downs syndrome pass the Sallyanne test because I thought they'd fail it for other reasons, such as having learning difficulties causing language development delays (as a lot of children with lower IQs can be delayed in language processing compared to their typically developing peers). To pass such tests you need to understand and pay attention to the 'story'.


I'm not sure how you are doing it but you give off a air of superiority and inferiority at the same time. You said you were embarrassed about not passing the Sally-Anne test which was fine and at first I was going to say that there is nothing to be embarassed about. Then you started talking about how people with down syndrome could pass it and people with lower IQ can pass it and asked if people with Alzheimer's could pass it as well. It's as if you are saying that "because of their issues and lower IQ there is no way that they should be able to pass a test that I couldn't because I'm more intelligent and capable than they are!". But then the inferiority comes into play when you have to deal with anything NT related and not meeting the expectations that they place on you(or society I should say).

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and develop at different paces. When you were younger maybe you didn't understand those tests and now you do. Just like others you develop and grow as you navigate through the world. It's not a competition of who can do what, we as people are just trying to get through life as best we can with the cards and resources we were dealt.


Youre missing the point.

Folks with Downs are generally classified as "mentally retarded". So by definition they are less intelligent than the average person. So there is nothing morally wrong with folks who are not classified as "retarded" (you and I) in assuming that we are smarter than they are.

And thats precisely why things like this are interesting. A downs syndrome person might well be better than I (a mensa member) at reading social situations than I am because Im an aspie and the downs person is not.
++++++++++

But I agree that "alzheimers" is a different bunch of issues. And that Joe shouldnt put that in the mix.

Alzeheimers victims dont loose either book smarts nor street smarts. What they loose is short term memory.

If any of us here on this thread becomes victims of alzheimers when we turn 80 its not going to make you less smart in the usual sense. But it will progressively shorten your short term memory. Even after being diagnosed my mom probably would have passed th SA test with ease, but later on as her alzheimers progressed she probably would have failed, not because of lack of "theory of mind", but because she wouldntve been able to remember the first part of the story long enough to keep track of what was being asked in the second part...wouldnt even remember who Sally was by they time you finished with ann hiding the marble, and asked her 'in which box will Sally look for the marble'.

If i would become a person with Alzheimer's, and I have the opposite issue, at one point i might find an improvement in memory functions.



naturalplastic
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23 Apr 2022, 6:44 pm

You mean...that your memory right now ...is so bad...that alzheimers would be an improvement?

Maybe you should lay off the weed. Lol!



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24 Apr 2022, 4:16 pm

I thought the Sally-Anne test was stupid. How do WE know Anne isn't a bully who regularly takes Sally's things and hides them from her?


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