Feel embarrassed that we fail Sallyanne test

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Joe90
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21 Apr 2022, 4:16 am

It's embarrassing. Such a simple test that even kids with downs syndrome pass, we didn't. :roll: Makes me feel really incredibly stupid. And don't say "oh there's loads of things you were probably excellent at what NTs and downs syndrome kids weren't" because I wasn't a little professor either. I had difficulties in school and had around average intellect, below in some things.
My mum said I took the Sallyanne test but doesn't remember if I passed or failed. I probably failed because of the stupid autistic brain probably said "hey dumbass the doll will look in the box where the other doll moved it to!" So without thinking I probably pointed to that box. :roll:
A test that a kid with learning difficulties could pass. So embarrassing. :roll:


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HighLlama
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21 Apr 2022, 4:28 am

People with Downs Syndrome can be quite manipulative. I'd also argue that, while many NTs and people with Downs Syndrome are good at assigning false beliefs to others, they do poorly at recognizing their own self-deception. I say this from daily experience with both groups.

Of course, the PPR and Love/Dating forums here show we can achieve at self-deception, as well.



klanka
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21 Apr 2022, 6:59 am

You said you have around average intellect, its just a problem with theory of mind. So its nothing to be embarrassed about.



Last edited by klanka on 21 Apr 2022, 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

temp1234
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21 Apr 2022, 8:40 am

You shouldn't be embarrassed about that kind of thing. People with Downs Syndrome are not stupid people for you to compare yourself against.



Joe90
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21 Apr 2022, 11:08 am

I hate the Sallyanne test.

Even as an adult who can easily work out simple situations from other people's perspectives several times daily without having to think, I still seem to stare at the box the doll had moved the marble to whenever I watch the Sallyanne test.

It seems to be one of those things like when someone asks "what do you put into a toaster?" and most people automatically reply, "toast" even though we all know full well that you put bread into the toaster. That's my response to the Sallyanne test - my instinct knows the true answer but my conscious says the wrong answer.

Otherwise, I'm doing little Sallyanne tests all the time every day without realising.


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KaleidoscopicMagpie
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21 Apr 2022, 4:39 pm

If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


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Joe90
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21 Apr 2022, 4:46 pm

KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


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21 Apr 2022, 4:47 pm

Joe90 wrote:
It's embarrassing. Such a simple test that even kids with downs syndrome pass, we didn't. :roll: Makes me feel really incredibly stupid. And don't say "oh there's loads of things you were probably excellent at what NTs and downs syndrome kids weren't" because I wasn't a little professor either. I had difficulties in school and had around average intellect, below in some things.
My mum said I took the Sallyanne test but doesn't remember if I passed or failed. I probably failed because of the stupid autistic brain probably said "hey dumbass the doll will look in the box where the other doll moved it to!" So without thinking I probably pointed to that box. :roll:
A test that a kid with learning difficulties could pass. So embarrassing. :roll:


I recall you saying you passed it when you were 8.


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KaleidoscopicMagpie
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21 Apr 2022, 4:48 pm

Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


Why are you embarrassed about the Sallyanne test, when there is no evidence that you failed it and quite a lot of evidence that you are capable of practising theory of mind?


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Joe90
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21 Apr 2022, 4:52 pm

KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
KaleidoscopicMagpie wrote:
If you know that you do the equivalent of a Sallyanne test every day, and you don't even know that you failed the Sallyanne test, why are you fixated on it?


I don't understand your question. :scratch:


Why are you embarrassed about the Sallyanne test, when there is no evidence that you failed it and quite a lot of evidence that you are capable of practising theory of mind?


Well I probably failed it at age 5 because I probably didn't think, I most likely have just pointed to the box I knew the marble was in. I wish so much that my mum had remembered whether I'd passed it or not.

I don't remember saying here that I passed it at 8.

It just seems weird that small children with downs syndrome pass the Sallyanne test because I thought they'd fail it for other reasons, such as having learning difficulties causing language development delays (as a lot of children with lower IQs can be delayed in language processing compared to their typically developing peers). To pass such tests you need to understand and pay attention to the 'story'.


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21 Apr 2022, 9:28 pm

My ASD daughter passed it, my ADHD son failed it. I don't get it.

I would tend to look where she didn't put it, b/c I was given information that people move it. I love to look where I didn't put something, then I find something I wasn't expecting. This has served me quite well in exploring systems. I would only be embarrassed relative to the NT interpretation, not as an absolute. My ASD BFF agrees --- why would anybody look where they put something -BORING!



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21 Apr 2022, 10:14 pm

That aint even the half of it! That were worse than NTs and folks with Downs at the Sallyanne test.

Even monkeys, and apes, are better at it than we are! :lol:

They have designed nonverbal versions of the Sally Anne test for animals, and have found that non human primates tend to ace it!

I just thought that I would...make your day...by sharing that! :D



Joe90
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21 Apr 2022, 11:26 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
That aint even the half of it! That were worse than NTs and folks with Downs at the Sallyanne test.

Even monkeys, and apes, are better at it than we are! :lol:

They have designed nonverbal versions of the Sally Anne test for animals, and have found that non human primates tend to ace it!

I just thought that I would...make your day...by sharing that! :D


I googled it and didn't find any proof that apes pass the Sallyanne test.

Would Alzheimer's patients pass the Sallyanne test?

Also autistics aren't the only ones that don't pass it - NT children under 4 don't either.

As a kid I seemed able to play games that require theory of mind such as hide and seek and blind man's buff. In fact I was good at blind man's buff because I could trick the kid with the blindfold on into thinking they were somewhere where they weren't in the house. When I finally got the kid to believe she was at the top of the stairs I pushed her and she screamed (terrified) as she fell on to the bed. Then she took her blindfold off and laughed and said I was so good at it. Good times.


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22 Apr 2022, 3:56 am

I think you shouldn't worry about a silly artificial test that some psychologists dreamt up.
You seem a kind and thoughtful person, those are precious traits that are wonderful.
A kind heart is worth a million of passing some old tests.



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22 Apr 2022, 4:44 am

Actually, most autistic people don't fail the Sally-Anne test, especially if you're over age 10 and have an IQ over 60ish. There's a lot of evidence showing that IQ and language ability are more strongly correlated with the Sally-Anne test than autistic traits are. And it's a really basic test.

Also, kids with Down Syndrome have a relative strength in social skills, as well as a relative weakness in language skills. So, socially they are a lot smarter than they seem. Also means they're not a good comparison group for autistic kids, despite how popular comparing the two is, because it's hard to tell if differences are due to autistic weaknesses or Down Syndrome strengths. Especially if you control for verbal ability, which is usually a good idea.

Plus, for comparison, adult psychopaths actually do tend to fail a test NT 4 year olds pass - the moral/conventional distinction test, which asks questions like "why is hitting people wrong?" and "if an authority figure said it's OK to hit people, would it be OK?" If anyone should be embarrassed about failing tests that preschoolers pass, it should be psychopaths.



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22 Apr 2022, 7:26 am

I probably would have failed any "test" when I was 3 years old.

I just don't feel "embarrassed" to have autism. Having autism, in and of itself, is not a shameful thing. One just has to do the best one can do under the circumstances.

Sometimes, the "best" of an autistic person is better than the "best" of an NT. Sometimes, it's not. What can you do?