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woodsman25
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05 Aug 2007, 1:45 pm

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So what happens when an Aspie becomes socially adept enough that he/she is indistinguishable from NTs? Can you evolve into an NT on the outside but still be an Aspie on the inside? Here's the big question, do you think these people have some kind of a moral obligation to help the Aspie community?


Well... ive never seen everyone agree with 1 another like this. I myself have done incredibly well since high school as far as wearing the mask. I have friends, just suck at dating, im seen as smart, eccentric, friendly but focused, occasionally with a temper perhapse.

Do u really beleive being able to cope in the NT world and intelligence are related?

I know ive done fairly well with the whole social thing when i wanna or have to put on the mask. Once an aspie always tho. And no, but it would be nice if u could tell ppl about whatever DX u got and they would try and help ya out a bit. heh


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05 Aug 2007, 2:28 pm

Greentea wrote:
I pass for a stupid, weird, blunt, crazy NT.


They're the best kind :D



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05 Aug 2007, 2:31 pm

Thank you :)


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05 Aug 2007, 4:41 pm

I am personally of the opinion that Asperger Condition (I won't call it a syndrome because it's a dehumanizing term) is not a disability at all, but a difference. Disabilities are defined by unbalanced impairments in adopting to the environment, things such as severe mental retardation or blindness, or maybe even low functioning autism.
But with aspies, we have an intellectual gift in the trade-off, so if we were the majority we could just as easily say NTs are disabled, when really theyr just different.
Many of our great minds either were HFA/ Aspie or they were thought to be. It is possible that autism is evolution in progress, I've struggled back and forth with this theory. At the moment there is no definate root of autism, however, higher intellect gives us the ability if we so choose to progress beyond much of our base animalistic instincts intellectually (intelligent NTs can do this too, they just have to challenge their impulses a bit more, but due to statistical intellect there are probably a higher percentage of aspies with this ability).
Either way, I do not feel that my Aspieness is something I need to be cured of, if someone took that away from me, they'd be taking away a major part of who I am, and I'd come out a completely different person. I am proud of being autistic. I do not think autism is the disability, I think ignorance and lack of education are the major disabilities associated with Asperger Condition. We live in a highly ableist society, and even though we're not technically disabled, we're percieved as disabled (much like homosexuals were at one time). Therefore even "nice" caregivers and parents often see us as more of a pitiful charity case than as human beings, and we are held to disability stereotypes (as are all disabled and percieved-disabled people). It's not unlike how white society thought they were "helping" native americans by giving them blankets riddled with small pox, and were shocked at their protest.



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05 Aug 2007, 4:47 pm

There are many environmental and economic structures (either physical or not) that are in place that one on disability must grow up with, that often complicates the struggle to independence. When your held to a higher "virtuous" standard set on stereotypes, brought up on services that make one MORE dependent rather than less dependent, your confidence is systematically shot from the time your a small child through bullying, pitying, and being treated like a child no matter your accomplishments or intellect, many of these things in place make the fight for self determination and self advocacy nearly damn impossible for many people.



snake321
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05 Aug 2007, 4:49 pm

I'm more for the social model of disability in nations like Finland, Netherlands, etc, rather than the medical model of disability which dehumanizes us, segregates us, and be it either consciously or sub-consciously, treats us as "lesser creatures".



Spot17
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05 Aug 2007, 5:00 pm

I think Aspies can learn to act like NTs with enough research and observation. Here's the thing though, at least for me, acting NT takes a conscious effort and is not natural. To act NT all the time would mean to be "on" all the time and that's mentally exhausting. I can go to an interview or a social event and act NT if I put my mind to it (for an interview, you really need to if you work in an office), but I'm wiped out at the end of it. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that all the time?

This is one of the reasons I only have a few friends. The friends I have, I can act like myself around - Aspie weirdness and all. The people I meet who I can't act like myself around, I don't interact with enough to form a real friendship because being around them is more of a chore than anything else.



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05 Aug 2007, 5:21 pm

Exactly, we're taught to try and emulate NT behavior, which means we're pressured to go against what we are biologically programmed to be. This is highly stressful and tyrannical, not to mention defimative of our identity. They taught native americans to dress and act like white people too.
Here, read these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism

(this one is about a proven science overseas and recognized by the UN called sexology, it also deals with the rights of other groups of people but I ad emphasis in this conversation on disabilities, which is the most important part for you to read through here.... It advocates surrogacy, legal and state-funded prostitution for the disabled, elderly, etc, in other words people who have historically lacked access, though the UN is working to remove the stigma from disabilities and encourage education and inclusion for disabled or "disabled" people in nations that support the social model of disability)

http://www.worldsexology.org/index.asp



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05 Aug 2007, 6:38 pm

snake321 wrote:
I'm more for the social model of disability in nations like Finland, Netherlands, etc, rather than the medical model of disability which dehumanizes us, segregates us, and be it either consciously or sub-consciously, treats us as "lesser creatures".


I live in the Netherlands and the social mode might seem more friendly but it is not. It the kind of extreme live and let live, so extreme that no one gives a damn about the other and that in my opinion is the same like labeling someone with a disability and ostrasizing them that way. The social model here bordelines to social isolation through social indeference. Some might think it is paradise but it is not. The grass always seems greener on the other side.

Star


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snake321
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05 Aug 2007, 7:26 pm

At the very least it's a small step up though, right? I mean, atleast theyr acknowledging us as human beings, politically, and taking steps to take care of our human needs for belonging, if for no other way than surrogacy services.
I know that the general attitude among society might still be very negative, but atleast the government realises this and is taking steps to eliminate the stigma. Here in America, minstrel shows on disability are publicly viewed as positive portrayals, the democratic primary a week or so ago aired a minstrel commercial they thought was "helping".
I've also heard that law enforcement is stepping up to disability abuses out there, and have arrested rest homes that were abusive.... I do keep up as best I can with disability and autism rights around the world, but I am open to hearing from someone who actually lives in a social-model nation.



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05 Aug 2007, 7:32 pm

snake321 wrote:
At the very least it's a small step up though, right? I mean, atleast theyr acknowledging us as human beings, politically, and taking steps to take care of our human needs for belonging, if for no other way than surrogacy services.
I know that the general attitude among society might still be very negative, but atleast the government realises this and is taking steps to eliminate the stigma. Here in America, minstrel shows on disability are publicly viewed as positive portrayals, the democratic primary a week or so ago aired a minstrel commercial they thought was "helping".
I've also heard that law enforcement is stepping up to disability abuses out there, and have arrested rest homes that were abusive.... I do keep up as best I can with disability and autism rights around the world, but I am open to hearing from someone who actually lives in a social-model nation.


Giving one money and further exclude them from any social activity, marginalizing them, ignoring and treating them as if they don't exist is not a step up. It is the exact opposite and just as bad as what the USA does. I do not know about Finland so I can't say what and how it is there, but here... It sure aint good!

Star


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05 Aug 2007, 8:42 pm

Star wrote:
Quote:
So what happens when an Aspie becomes socially adept enough that he/she is indistinguishable from NTs?


I don't think it is possible to for an Apie to become indistinguishable from an NT. I think that NTs will always see an Aspie's behavior are weird, and take him/her to be an eccentric, or 'artistic' as they sometimes call it when one behaves weird but they don't wnat to put a negative label on the person, or think he/she is a workaholic cause spends many more hoursworking on a project that anyone else, etc. etc.

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Can you evolve into an NT on the outside but still be an Aspie on the inside?


Nope! I am 45 years old and didn't know I had AS until recently and I never evolved to become an NT! I 'played' an NT, I 'acted' as an NT, I 'put on' my NT mask and tried to function in a world that did not make sense.
Because most AS have high to very high intelligence we find ways to create a 'persona' (an outer layer) that seems normal or what we perceive as normal by studying the behavior of the people around us (mostly NTs) and then take parts and bits from that behavior, sew it together and make a 'costume' we can wear to fit in.

You can call AS the chameleons of the Neurotypical world. The higher the IQ the better the ability to change the outer layer to disquise and fit it. The lower the IQ, the more the NT world seems chaotic and the less the ability to cope.

Star



I haven't read past this post yet but I wanted to stop right here and say "WOW OMG Star, everything you said was so PROFOUND!! ! You got me so excited that I had to read your post to my husband. You described what I do everyday... wear that mask.. that costume... to fit in. I love how you worded everything. "You can call AS the chameleons of the Neurotypical world."

You're awesome!



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05 Aug 2007, 10:33 pm

ChatBrat wrote:
Star wrote:
....



I haven't read past this post yet but I wanted to stop right here and say "WOW OMG Star, everything you said was so PROFOUND!! ! You got me so excited that I had to read your post to my husband. You described what I do everyday... wear that mask.. that costume... to fit in. I love how you worded everything. "You can call AS the chameleons of the Neurotypical world."

You're awesome!


The only part I take umbrage with is how star implies that the NT model isn't that chaotic. If not for the massive size of corporations, they would FAIL! It is ASTOUNDING that they throw so much money down the tubes. If not for the redundancy in "education" and the fact smarter students WANT to learn, EVERYTHING would fail! If not for the fact that most peoples immune systems can handle so much, the human race probably would have died out. Talk about Chaos. Greed and technology are working to try to destroy the U.S. economy.



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06 Aug 2007, 4:06 pm

2ukenkerl wrote:
ChatBrat wrote:
Star wrote:
....


I haven't read past this post yet but I wanted to stop right here and say "WOW OMG Star, everything you said was so PROFOUND!! ! You got me so excited that I had to read your post to my husband. You described what I do everyday... wear that mask.. that costume... to fit in. I love how you worded everything. "You can call AS the chameleons of the Neurotypical world."

You're awesome!


The only part I take umbrage with is how star implies that the NT model isn't that chaotic. If not for the massive size of corporations, they would FAIL! It is ASTOUNDING that they throw so much money down the tubes. If not for the redundancy in "education" and the fact smarter students WANT to learn, EVERYTHING would fail! If not for the fact that most peoples immune systems can handle so much, the human race probably would have died out. Talk about Chaos. Greed and technology are working to try to destroy the U.S. economy.


That is not what I said. I said that to fit in I created a collage a sort of 'Frankenstein monster' outer layer that was madeof bits and parts of behavior that I picked up and copie from the NTs around me. I did NOT say that I either like or dislike that behavior. That is acompletely different issue.

Yes, NTs do a lot of harm on this world, on this planet. BUT... what are YOU doing to stop it?????

That is what you shopuld think every day NOT how much or how little others do. What is it that YOU are doing to save the planet, to right the injustice, to change what is wrong?

Complaining will get no one anywhere, action, lobbying, planning all the things that Aspies find difficult is exactly what we need to do. But no one is movig because of the fear that rules our mind and our soul. We are so afraid we are not good enough, not adequate enough, not smart enough. We either wear the 'disability' mask and shut up or we live in hidding trying not to evoke attention or stir up trouble.

Yet, we all dislike what is happening in te world and WE all saw it coming we sensed it we do every day we KNOW where this s**t is going and we are not doing anything, not as a group.

There are more that 12,000 people here lets get organized lets lobby lets make our voice hear and say that WE ASPIES do not like what the NTs are doing to the world, cause it is OUR world as well!

But you see, we don't thin this is OUR world, we think it is the NT's world and we are alliens here... Hmmm
What if we are the real owners of this world and they like the Europeans took over AMerica, the NTs have taken over OUR world. Maybe we are NOT the aliens here but they are.

So why don't we get organized and ask make them stop harming OUR planet?

Star


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lelia
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06 Aug 2007, 4:36 pm

I'm planting trees on November 3 in the neighborhood. I would like it if all aspies went out and planted trees.



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06 Aug 2007, 4:49 pm

How are NT's hurting earth? Are you talking about global warming, pollution and such? If so, how is it that you think NT's do this but Aspie's don't? I'm not upset, I'm nicely asking out of curiosity about what you're talking about.


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