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pastafarian
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07 Oct 2011, 5:29 pm

KemoreJ wrote:

"And Pastafarian, I'm with you there. I feel fortunate to have come across communities of people who do not fit the exclusive NT mould. It is my opinion that Oxytocin appears to affect the base emotions associated with safety and security. But we are complex creatures and have free will and intelligence to recognise when we are being base creatures. So we may not always be ruled by the emotions associated with Oxytocin. Just as someone on the spectrum, assuming that there is a correlation between Oxytocin and ASD's, can appreciate the value of intimacy."


:P




Hey exactly that :P :lol: . I see "in groups and out groups" and have base emotions and I have a word with myself, talk myself out of my animal self. Thats the wonder of people, we are animals of course but we have free will and intelligence (given a chance, which most sadly most of the world are not).. For example, when I was 14 and had my first period I felt a whoosh of chemicals and a personality change. I thought "WTF I'm not being controlled by some sodding chemicals". I like to think of myself as making rational judgements and I try not to let neurochemicals stop me being me (I feel more like me when I overcome my base instincts, obviously I'm not conscious of my constant failures). But I know my success, its hard work sometimes, exhausting, and we think the mental exhaustion is akin to my bloke trying to be NT. I try hard with rationality. He trys hard with intimacy, but when he gets it it makes him feel more complete and he cant get enough of it :-).



Last edited by pastafarian on 10 Oct 2011, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

KemoreJ
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07 Oct 2011, 6:38 pm

Awesome. I'm glad we understand each other. :D


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fraac
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07 Oct 2011, 7:40 pm

KemoreJ: like I said, it's pre-conscious, unconscious, subconscious, whatever you want to call it, so I'm not exactly sure how it works. I know I don't feel it when I don't experiment with oxytocin. I have to make guesses about how it works based on observed differences in behaviour. I came up with a hierarchic model that happens to fit what we know about other primates. More testing is necessary.

Pastafarian: it would take something remarkable to persuade me that it's not about neurotypes. I'm very interested in how much self-awareness people have and how much you can talk about stuff with them. The only nonautistics I've felt comfortable with were psychopaths, who also appear to be outside the social hierarchy. I've watched people have genuine emotional reactions to psychopathic manipulation and I find it scary. I don't think they're allowed to consciously analyse it even though I agree that they know, on some level, exactly what's going on. That mechanism for allowing or disallowing oneself to consciously consider things is deeply fascinating to me.



sinsboldly
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07 Oct 2011, 11:52 pm

fraac wrote:
MDMA affects oxytocin, and may be easier to obtain.


I did a lot of MDMA in my twenties - not that MDMAI that they peddle these days, but pure MDMA from Berkeley Chemistry Labs in the early Seventies. I didn't realize that the magical feelings came from an oxytocin release but I can easily understand, now, that that is what I was feeling. It felt good, I remember


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mglosenger
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07 Oct 2011, 11:56 pm

MDMA has been and is being successfully used in various clinical trials to treat people with post-traumatic stress disorder and similar anxiety-related issues.. I'm sure there are various sources of pure MDMA still around :)



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08 Oct 2011, 1:23 am

pastafarian wrote:
My partner used to think that because he felt like an outsider and could sense social structures so clearly, that NTs couldn't see there were "in groups and out groups". But I could always sense them and I'm NT. Any person can stand back and see whats wrong, and they can feel it at pre-conscious level, then analyse it afterwards, its just maturity. Its nothing to do with neurotypes, its horizons and life experience. He was living in "sofa city' with a very limited circle of friends, too similar, most of them were watching TV, so they had tuned out of life. Now he has a vibrant circle of people around him from loads of different perspective, educated, foreign, different cultures, young and old. (And I spend my life trying to make Oxytocin for him. He says he had never felt it before. :-) )

Yeah, I suppose its early and late bloomers in that respect. Then again there are some who never quite catch on - between AS and NT though I don't know that this ratio is too dissimilar.


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pastafarian
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08 Oct 2011, 2:30 am

fraac wrote:
KemoreJ:

Pastafarian: it would take something remarkable to persuade me that it's not about neurotypes. I'm very interested in how much self-awareness people have and how much you can talk about stuff with them. T.


Okay what I think I meant to say is autistics see this stuff much more easily, I think thats true on average. So in that sense it is about neurotypes. But you are reporting on how much self-awareness the NTs you have known in your life have, and how much you can talk to them about this stuff. I'm reporting on my interactions which are shaped by the people I know and how they have shaped my thinking. My billions of neurons allow me to consciously analyse this stuff and I'm not autistic. Its the culture you are in.

I'm sorry that you have never been comfortable with any nonautistics. I'm guessing because you are frustrated by their stupidity, in their being so tuned out of their surroundings they go along with the unspoken rules and cant even tell when they are being taken for a ride by a psychopath. That ain't everyone, its the people you know, and many of the millions sleeping through their lives watching TV.



KemoreJ
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08 Oct 2011, 3:40 am

I'm with Pastafarian on that one. It is easy to take what we observe and know and catastrophise. (Catastrophise is not the exact word I was after but will do. I don't think you are catastrophising. I think you are quite objective). I get what you are saying and have the same experiences of great insight and perspective but they are by no means the exclusive domain of people with ASD's. :wink:

I should add (I have not mentioned this yet and I am by no means the first to suggest this) that I believe every single person is on the "Autism Spectrum". That is just a name given to a set of psychosomatic characteristics of course. It is my belief that given certain conditions, any person can find themselves experiencing what someone with "Aspergers Syndrome" does. All they have to do is live in a city which never sleeps, on a busy corner, in a noisy apartment that they perhaps are forced by circumstance to share with hostile people, not have adequate heating in Winter, not be able to get a healthy cooked meal each day, be drinking polluted tap water, work in a job they hate seven days a week and have too many relationship demands on their depleted emotional self.

Imagine living in a war zone on top of all that!


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fraac
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08 Oct 2011, 10:19 am

pastafarian wrote:
But you are reporting on how much self-awareness the NTs you have known in your life have, and how much you can talk to them about this stuff. I'm reporting on my interactions which are shaped by the people I know and how they have shaped my thinking.


Maybe. I've known some very beautiful people who I loved. When the pressure was on, the more 'neurotypical' among them fell into line as if in an animal hierarchy that determined their reality. There are people I know now, not as good as my previous people and I don't care about them, but I'm keenly aware that it would upset them if I talked about some observations. They need the lie. I don't think that's just weakness. If I was experiencing pre-conscious feelings about people all the time, I would probably rationalise them as genuine without even thinking about it. And who is to say they aren't genuine? Me, because I see things differently? As I get older it seems more that the differences between autistic and - not nonautistic but a large segment of the populace who don't find themselves acting to fit it - are insurmountable.



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08 Oct 2011, 2:38 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
pastafarian wrote:
My partner used to think that because he felt like an outsider and could sense social structures so clearly, that NTs couldn't see there were "in groups and out groups". But I could always sense them and I'm NT. Any person can stand back and see whats wrong, and they can feel it at pre-conscious level, then analyse it afterwards, its just maturity. Its nothing to do with neurotypes, its horizons and life experience. He was living in "sofa city' with a very limited circle of friends, too similar, most of them were watching TV, so they had tuned out of life. Now he has a vibrant circle of people around him from loads of different perspective, educated, foreign, different cultures, young and old. (And I spend my life trying to make Oxytocin for him. He says he had never felt it before. :-) )

Yeah, I suppose its early and late bloomers in that respect. Then again there are some who never quite catch on - between AS and NT though I don't know that this ratio is too dissimilar.


My second husband once told me "when you are playing poker and you don't know who the sucker is (that everyone is taking advantage of) . . . YOU are the sucker". This means if you are clueless as to who is not fitting in in a social situation, then it is you that is the outsider. This information only confirmed what I had suspected.


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pastafarian
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08 Oct 2011, 3:02 pm

fraac "differences are insurmountable"

I'm sorry you feel that way. Concilliation is really important to me, its thrilling when people can understand what its like to be in each others shoes. Magical in fact.

Do you think you've really got the data? As Bob McNamara said, you gotta get the data :-) I'm still wondering if you are reporting on how much self-awareness the NTs that you know have (the beautiful people who turned not to be so beautiful but fell into animal heirarchies), and how much you can talk to the now NT friends openly and honestly?

What I think you have said is:
Some beautiful people you loved, NT friends who were then arses, plus some current group of NT friends that you don't even care about, "need the lie".

That don't mean NT/others differences are insurmountable, does it? This whole site is about the celebration of neurodiversity isn't it and its brilliant.

When the pressures on people can be s**t friends whatever their neuro make-up. You live, and learn to keep the good ones and go on expeditions in search for more like them, then cherish them and love them and cherish them and make them cakes.



Last edited by pastafarian on 08 Oct 2011, 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pastafarian
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08 Oct 2011, 3:05 pm

Interesting, it dont mind arses, but it dont like sh**. Fair enough.



fraac
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08 Oct 2011, 4:57 pm

That sounds nice. I think the differences are insurmountable between myself and anyone who needs to hold onto a lie. Example: a girl I know, perfectly pleasant and a genuinely nice person, but she wants to be subordinate in a hierarchy so she lets a psychopath manipulate her. He freaks out whenever she's friendly to me and she can't deal with it at all because her entire reality says the hierarchy is trustworthy. This is a perfectly normal neurotypical person but she isn't equipped to deal with how the world really is (arguably because of oxytocin). Now she's scared to look me in the eye because, I guess, she knows an honest connection with me would threaten the lies she's holding onto. My experience suggests this is typical and the rare people who can deal with me are high-functioning undiagnosed psychopaths, borderlines, narcissists, etc.



KemoreJ
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08 Oct 2011, 6:05 pm

Yes hierarchies do make people feel safe don't they. I think it makes people feel like there will always be someone more capable than they feel to make a wise decision on behalf of the "collective" they choose to be a part of.

For me, hierarchies scare the c..p out of me because the priveleged few, empowered by the majority, make a decision and everyone follows blindly. That makes me feel very unsafe indeed.

It's NTs who have the issue with Executive Function, not us!


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fraac
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08 Oct 2011, 6:24 pm

I don't know how they make people feel. I can't imagine letting outside agencies determine one's reality. I know that most people will blindly obey authority and I know it's impossible for me to connect honestly with someone like that.

Oxytocin forces you to ask questions about this stuff. I sometimes think a main aim in life is to find the lies you can live with.



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08 Oct 2011, 7:24 pm

fraac wrote:
That sounds nice. I think the differences are insurmountable between myself and anyone who needs to hold onto a lie. Example: a girl I know, perfectly pleasant and a genuinely nice person, but she wants to be subordinate in a hierarchy so she lets a psychopath manipulate her. He freaks out whenever she's friendly to me and she can't deal with it at all because her entire reality says the hierarchy is trustworthy. This is a perfectly normal neurotypical person but she isn't equipped to deal with how the world really is (arguably because of oxytocin). Now she's scared to look me in the eye because, I guess, she knows an honest connection with me would threaten the lies she's holding onto. My experience suggests this is typical and the rare people who can deal with me are high-functioning undiagnosed psychopaths, borderlines, narcissists, etc.


She isnt equipped at the moment. Nothing is fixed in concrete about our personalities we all learn and change, and we grew up, we get life skills (to hopefully smell a psychopath and stay the fek away from them). You describe the lies in animal hierarchies, and how society holds on to them because the chemicals desensitise us, and you say that you can't connect to people that hold on to them. Cut a little slack? Perhaps you do, perhaps I am defending NTs rather too much - but you sound like you think you cant have close NT friends who you can connect with honesty (sad) and I can't see that the NT/autistic differences mean they cant connect in all ways (thats insulting to all?). With maturity NTs can intellectualise animal thoughts and feelings, and analyse social structures.

You are holding on to layer after layer of lies as well - every human is, so its all about degrees, otherwise we couldn't have this conversation. Any NT who has been shaken up by life, had the chemicals freak a little for whatever reason (drugs, illness, trauma, bereavement), sees the lies, knows how close they are to going back to the wild, and feels the clash with whats underneath. The built environment doesn't help, we would all have better mental health if we spent more time in green countryside and blue skies.

In your example, hopefully she will learn how to get away from the manipulation. She may not be equipped at the moment, but we continuous learn through life and she is being controlled and coerced so I hope she can move on. I knew a psychopath once, great sex is often the problem, then it suddenly clicked I dont need this, I'm off. I can smell them a mile off now.

When you say "deal with me", is it because you talk to people rather intensely about these things and the borderlines etc aren't phased because their realities are already stripped bare by their problems? I doubt that they are the only people who can deal with you. I used to be scared of intense "weirdos", now I know they are human being with stories. I grew up. I feel guilty.

Surely not just people with psychopathic personality???? The world is full of people who will look you in the eyes and say "hello fragile, mortal human, this is a bit of a freaky ride aint it", but you have to look for them. I get quite an intellectual thrill out of exercising intense honesty. So many people are watching TV. I'd rather have everyone go live in the woods and talk to dormice, snails and frogs.

Do you feel you need that honest connection with everyone? Or do you want it with just a few?



Last edited by pastafarian on 10 Oct 2011, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.