Page 4 of 4 [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

fraac
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,865

08 Oct 2011, 9:05 pm

I don't see the point of anything less than intensely honest connections with people. I'm autistic, the 'how are you? fine, how are you?' stuff leaves me cold. I give off a very relaxed vibe though*, which I think is what some people find threatening. Someone not taking part in the hierarchy is meant to fear it maybe, but I know it's lies so I'm just openly friendly with everyone.

You seem to be saying that if I wait for people to get more experience they'll find it easier to relate to me. I hadn't considered that. It seems suboptimal.

* that said, do nonautistics take words more seriously? Sometimes I've been talking with a relaxed vibe but maybe saying dark messed up stuff that happens to be true, but always with a smile in my eye and a vibe like "this means nothing to me and I'm asking nobody to believe it", which I think should feel safe, but I notice they sometimes find specific ideas triggering.

Anyway, it's 3am, I'm off out to take acid up a hill and then tomorrow I'm calling the only girl I've liked in years, who's spent the last year playing the game with a psycho (same psycho, smarter girl), with the intention of putting her in a position that will cause him to attempt to murder her and end the game. Haven't decided whether to tell her what's going on, it might just scare her. Wish me luck.



KemoreJ
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 129
Location: Australia

08 Oct 2011, 9:28 pm

fraac wrote:
I don't know how they make people feel. I can't imagine letting outside agencies determine one's reality. I know that most people will blindly obey authority and I know it's impossible for me to connect honestly with someone like that.

Oxytocin forces you to ask questions about this stuff. I sometimes think a main aim in life is to find the lies you can live with.


"An authority is someone who demands your power; and you give it to them" ;c)

"With maturity NTs can intellectualise animal thoughts and feelings, and analyse social structures. "

It seems to be very much a matter of luck, finding a sector of society, the right town or something where people are less "base" (is that too harsh a word?). My first 28 years were tough and isolating. I travelled and found an amazing town and then another and then a small community centred around a retreat centre. INMHO I think positivity is important to attract the people we wish to relate to. I believe it is also important to not necessarily compromise and seek company with anyone just for the sake of not being alone. I think the times when we find oursleves alone are important. If we are authentic we will attract people who are good for us. Saying that it is important to add that ALL people are inherently good. It is just that some connections are not really suitable for us right now. And we may not be for them also :wink:

"You are holding on to layer after layer of lies as well - every human is, so its all about degrees, otherwise we couldn't have this conversation. Any NT who has been shaken up by life, had the chemicals freak a little for whatever reason (drugs, illness, trauma, bereavement), sees the lies, knows how close they are to going back to the wild, and feels the clash with whats underneath. The built environment doesn't help, we would all have better mental health if we spent more time in green countryside and blue skies."

Wow I like your perspective!

"I used to be scared of intense "weirdos", now I know they are human being with stories. I grew up. I feel guilty."

Yes I know I have scared a lot of people. I know many think I am weird. But many love me too, even in my weirdness. I have also shunned "weirdos" but am becomming much more compassionate and actually feel more of a bond with outcasts than with everyone who has the privelege to aspire and acquire.

"I get quite an intellectual thrill out of exercising intense honesty."

Me too. But it frightens loads of people. I really mostly prefer my own company as a result. The internal lanscape is often far more interesting.

You'll have to excuse my not using names when I reply sometimes. I'm not sure how to reply to a number of people in one message and recall who said what.

"Sometimes I've been talking with a relaxed vibe but maybe saying dark messed up stuff that happens to be true, but always with a smile in my eye and a vibe like "this means nothing to me and I'm asking nobody to believe it", which I think should feel safe, but I notice they sometimes find specific ideas triggering. "

I do that! lol Freaks people out! I would much rather hear about someones shadow side than superficial stuff. It is far more interesting. I had this visual the other day. I imagined someone holding up a mask in front of their face while talking to me. I was standing in front of them with a dumfounded look on my face and thinking "Are you serious? Do you really expect me to respond to your mask? I try to peer behind the mask but they just move it and hold it closer to their face". It makes me think that, given our predisposition for honesty, authenticity and altruism that we really are here for a higher purpose. I'm not religious by the way.


_________________
"If you can, help others. If you cannot, do no harm".
The Dalai Lama


pastafarian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 549
Location: London

09 Oct 2011, 3:47 am

Hi KemoreJ

I can't imagine letting outside agencies determine my reality and I'm NT.

"I believe it is also important to not necessarily compromise and seek company with anyone just for the sake of not being alone. "

Madonna taught me that 20 years ago. Dates me! Don't settle for second best. Its great how music can make things so clear. Your dancing around with the lyrics and you hear yourself louder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12wP5W2R0wY

"I think positivity is important to attract the people we wish to relate to."

That could sound trivialising to someone struggling but its SOO true. Once someone is holding onto something positive, if they have problems they can sort them however insurmountable they may seem. Rational folk want to sort problems. I think I'm a nihilistic optimist.

"I get quite an intellectual thrill out of exercising intense honesty."

"Me too. But it frightens loads of people. I really mostly prefer my own company as a result. The internal lanscape is often far more interesting."

I think thats a benefit for autistics and I wish I was more self-contained like that. My internal landscape is dull. I struggle being alone and I crave company. It can hurt (the people I crave are spread across the globe) But I'm lucky because domesticity fills that hole. I want company not just sometimes, but nearly always, people make life (I have a lot of sciencey interests but I'm compelled to share information about the physical world, the sharing is central).

Fraac: Be careful with that triggering, its best done with a hug. I think you are scaring people.

As a non-autistic, I think the thrill I get out of exercising intense honesty, although an autistic-ky trait, is very controlled. I dont need it from everyone, and I dont frighten people in day to day life (quite the opposite, I'm warm and fluffy). I need it it to make me feel super close to special people. Like it connects us.

In the past, my autistic-ky intense honesty has often been pillow talk or foreplay, but not uniquely because theres a time and a place to get behind masks. You got to trust people to open up, so you dont do it to strangers, you do with the good friends and with lovers. You get a whoosh of Oxytocin and you want to get so close to someone, one way is sharing intense honesty with a naked reality (and sometimes as well as naked bodies). Theres nothing more exciting than taking ALL the masks off. As for frightening people in that context, I dont think I would ever fancy someone who was going to be scared, you can smell emotional maturity. :lol: I think my sense of smell tells me when someone is smart and they are going to be interesting and not scared. I have only ever fancied geeks I guess. :lol: I do think autistic blokes could hone this to their advantage.

The clingy gooey When Harry Met Sally poster, shows a non-autistic freaking out at intimacy. I think many non-autistic men can have a much bigger journey to real intimacy than some autistics. What if that intimacy was simply the intense honesty about self-awareness accompanied by the safety of a naked cuddle? Thats a fek of a lot more safety than a social heirarchy. Women are emotionally smarter than men and can deal with intense self-awareness - if its not inappropriate.

My pet theory.



pastafarian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 549
Location: London

09 Oct 2011, 4:08 am

fraac wrote:

You seem to be saying that if I wait for people to get more experience they'll find it easier to relate to me. I hadn't considered that. It seems suboptimal.

.


This is quite funny, lovely funny - not laugh at you funny.



KemoreJ
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 129
Location: Australia

09 Oct 2011, 6:01 am

Pastafarian I really appreciate your NT insights and patience with AS rants at NTs. lol :D

"I can't imagine letting outside agencies determine my reality and I'm NT."

Yes that is not a trait exclusive to AS people. Not blowing my own horn but I think we can inspire people to embrace their personal power.

"Madonna taught me that 20 years ago. Dates me! Don't settle for second best. Its great how music can make things so clear. Your dancing around with the lyrics and you hear yourself louder."

Lyrics never did it for me. I find the words distracting from the beat and rythum. I actually have to strain so hard to hear the lyrics lke trying to understand a conversation. I have experienced strange looks from people when I put on a song I like with a pleasurable beat and rythum, not being aware of inappropriate lyrics lol But I get the power of song and stories. Madonna is a powerhouse. An empowered woman who must be a great role model for women.

"That could sound trivialising to someone struggling but its SOO true."

Trivialising or condescending? I can see how it might be condescending. I guess I felt it was ok to say it because I am one of the most negative people I know lol. Was just sharing what I aspire to really.

"I think thats a benefit for autistics"

I believe this is why we attract so much attention from potential lovers. Everyone is attracted to people who have traits we wish for ourselves.

"My internal landscape is dull. I struggle being alone and I crave company. It can hurt (the people I crave are spread across the globe)"

I'm not certain but I imagine this must be a common theme for most NTs? Maybe it is part and parcel of having "normal" levels of Oxytocin? Over Millennia Homo Sapien would have naturally assimilated socialising as an important aspect of ones life; without need to rationalise it. Autism is only a very recent event in our evolution. I don't feel there is anything to be gained from comparison. Apples and oranges. When I say "internal landscape" I think of myself as being only partially "me", an Earth bound human being. I receive so much information about things, perspective, that can't possibly be learned by a simple individual who does not study or experience a broad range of...experiences; my internal landscape includes that hotline to the Heavens.

"But I'm lucky because domesticity fills that hole. I want company not just sometimes, but nearly always, people make life (I have a lot of sciencey interests but I'm compelled to share information about the physical world, the sharing is central)".

Yes sharing. lol when I share I download until it's all out of me and then the floor is given to my freind. The way most NTs share bugs me. It's so piece meal (is that correct context?). But since learning about Oxytocin I understand that sharing makes people feel good, connected, understood, safe within a group.

"As a non-autistic, I think the thrill I get out of exercising intense honesty, although an autistic-ky trait, is very controlled".

I think I enjoy what my friend calls disclosure because it means not having to deal with masks. Masks of popular culture for example. It is all an ephemeral collection of rules of engagement. Most people grow up and learn much of it before they leave high school. I find it infinitely frustrating knowing that people keep their internal selves for an exclusive relationship. (I was not always so transparent. I made a decision nearly ten years ago that if people were not going to be transparent with me the best I could do was model it myself). But I understand the need for some people to feel like they are reserving some private parts of themselves for someone special. I think this brings us back to the idea that apparently people on the spectrum show more incidence of altruism than NTs?

"I need it it to make me feel super close to special people. Like it connects us".

Exactly! Oxytocin makes people feel connected. So does that mean honesty increases Oxytocin? Maybe AS people are so honest because what we perceive to be so much murkiness and masking and safety and exclusivity drains our Oxytocin? But NTs can afford to be more discerning? Hmmm

"Theres nothing more exciting than taking ALL the masks off".

Can you imagine what it would be like doing that 24/7? It's liberating. Connects you to the Heavens. Courageous honesty opens you up to the light of "God".

"What if that intimacy was simply the intense honesty about self-awareness accompanied by the safety of a naked cuddle?"

That's really sexy :)

"Women are emotionally smarter than men and can deal with intense self-awareness".

This is true.


_________________
"If you can, help others. If you cannot, do no harm".
The Dalai Lama


pastafarian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 549
Location: London

10 Oct 2011, 5:26 am

I'm finding this forum fascinating. I had all sorts buzzing round in my head yesterday and had better conversations with 2 friends, strolling round the city than I would have otherwise have had.

I got one friend in the same disclosing mood and I learnt a whole bunch of new, recent stuff he hadn't been sharing but had clearly wanted to (tiny prod and its all comes flooding). Repeated in the evening with a second friend. Thanks to chatting to you guys on Wrong Planet, at the end of one day I feel even closer to 2 people.
cheers :lol:



KemoreJ
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 129
Location: Australia

10 Oct 2011, 11:15 am

Glad to hear it :D

Can I ask, who do you think was experiencing the increase in Oxytocin (if any) - the person disclosing or the person listening?

Or maybe your weren't thinking of science, like I do lol, when talking to your friends.

:D

I was just out for a walk in the moonlight thinking about your post and it ocurred to me that too much disclosure could wear ones Oxytocin thin? For me, the experience of listening to people sharing their most deepest selves is incredibly satisfying and makes me feel safe and warm and more inclined to endure human company. Anything less is excruciating and exhausting.

Honesty is like a meeting of the souls.


_________________
"If you can, help others. If you cannot, do no harm".
The Dalai Lama


fraac
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,865

11 Oct 2011, 8:05 am

"Be careful with that triggering, its best done with a hug. I think you are scaring people. "

Getting people into a state where they wouldn't freak out at being hugged is the trickiest thing in my life.



pastafarian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 549
Location: London

11 Oct 2011, 12:24 pm

fraac wrote:
"Be careful with that triggering, its best done with a hug. I think you are scaring people. "

Getting people into a state where they wouldn't freak out at being hugged is the trickiest thing in my life.



What I understood by "triggering" was that you were saying that when you talked honestly to NT people about "dark mess up stuff" (maybe truths about our fragile lives and what you see of society that other NTs dont see easily??) - that it "triggers" something in them. Just try and slow down a little with that? They need a little help. 8)

My sister was talked into a mental breakdown by a bloke pushing her sense of reality until it all came tumbling down too quickly. It can be a bit of a shock for NTs with poor self-awareness (to you "living the lies"). Her friend got her high on dope and then started fiddling with her mind (not nastily or manipulatively but kind of accidently).
She fine now, better for it in fact, but he sort of "triggered" her and it could have been more gentle.

People like to be hugged and lots of NT people find autistics smart, fascinating, hot and can "deal with them" honestly!! !!, therefore your problem is not insurmountable. I think your a guy?
Maybe you need to slow down a little, cut the NTs some slack?
:lol:



pastafarian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 549
Location: London

11 Oct 2011, 1:23 pm

KemoreJ wrote:
Glad to hear it :D

Can I ask, who do you think was experiencing the increase in Oxytocin (if any) - the person disclosing or the person listening?

Or maybe your weren't thinking of science, like I do lol, when talking to your friends.
.


Both perhaps? I dont know, I think I need to think about that. But it was a friend who I have known for years, got a little distant from recently due to running around too mad with work. Had one of those intense hold nothing back however scary crazy crazy chats, felt closer and my life got a tiny bit better. And that kind of stuff all adds up.