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nobodyzdream
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07 Aug 2007, 3:38 am

Bear with me, it's rather long and I took my sleep meds, lol, so I'm not sure it fully makes sense.

My psychologist seemed a bit baffled by me last week. Now, I know he is looking at things from a different angle than what is being said most likely, or how it needs to be looked at, but I find his reaction very interesting all the same.

I went in and we were discussing family stuff-as in, my mother. First, he questioned why I laugh every time he brings up my dysfunctional family, and I had to explain that I often see in my mind, a bunch of little circus cartoon characters doing all kinds of bizarre things when I think of them. He gave me an odd look, and of course, I still am unsure what the look indicated. I then proceeded to talk about some of the crazy things they have done, or events I have witnessed, and I was laughing the whole time nearly. I found it hysterical. When he asked me why I found it funny, I just responded "that is just the way they are. How am I supposed to react to so many irrational and illogical people that still insist on forming family get-togethers?"

He then asked me about emotions and what I think of them. Well, to me, that is a very general question-he didn't ask me how I feel about my own emotions, he didn't ask me about my reactions to things... he just asked what I thought about emotions.

So I responded, "Emotions are silly automatic responses to things that one feels very strongly. From my personal observation, they don't seem to accomplish anything at all, except prolonging understanding and acceptance in any given situation. They are illogical and irrational, there is no answer for exactly why people react the way that they do to anything, and there is no set reaction for any one thing when it comes to different people. The way I see it, is I can get upset over something, and cry for 2-3 hours and accomplish nothing, or I can figure out what is bothering me and gain some understanding so that I can accept it. I'm not denying that they exist, and if they exist they must form some sort of function even if it is just to vent, but they still seem illogical to me."

He raised an eyebrow, and responded with, "So let me know if I am hearing this right... what I am interpreting out of this is that emotions are scary to you and illogical, therefore you try to rationalize uncomfortable situations."

For some reason, it doesn't sit well with me, and I explain again. I think it is because he was interpreting it into something and I was telling him exactly what I thought, therefore they differed. He says it again.

I do not understand why my viewpoint leads him to believe that emotions are scary for me for some reason, rather than just listening to exactly what I said. If they were scary to me, I would say they are scary... I just said they happen but I don't see the point. I am also confused about him questioning it to begin with... if I had a problem and was unaware of what it was, he would be helping me get to the point of it so that it could be accepted and whatnot, so why does it have to be interpreted as something that is scary to me, just because I already do that? To me it seems silly. The other thing I am confused about... is where is he getting that it is specifically scary TO ME, when his question was generalized to begin with?

A friend of mine said that it is probably because to an extent it sounds inhuman and robotic.


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07 Aug 2007, 8:17 am

I find it annoying and frustrating when people interpret me in terms of themselves. I understand where you are coming from and what you were saying to him but if an NT said that then it would be interpreted as avoidance of emotions therefore fear. Also the emotional response to your family may be interpreted as avoidance of being upset at them, when to me it just sounds like you are at a healthy distance from them and can watch dispationately (which seems a very sensible and logic thing).
I saw a counsellor for a while but he got traumatised by some of the things I would tell him about my childhood which I would just relate emotionlessly as it was just information about events that happened. He would go home at the end of work and then the emotions he would feel about the situations apparently caused him distress - therefore emotions are pointless.
Maybe you need to confront your psychiatrist about how it is not appropriate to interpret what you say as he would for an NT client and he needs to better understand the AS mind.


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07 Aug 2007, 9:36 am

Well I wouldn't react to your statement on emotions by thinking you were afraid of them! If he really wants to know what you think of your own emotions, he needs some specific examples from you about your own emotions or emotional situations. Chriminy, If asked a general question like that, we can say anything, anyway. But our actions might betray a different truth.

All of which is not to say that your response might not have been truthful! Just that I think your therapist might not be going about finding out the truth about you the right way!

I HATE that word, avoidant! !! My therapist told me recently I had avoidant personality disorder (traits, anyway.) Why must I need people to be normal or okay? They never ask us if we're happy.


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07 Aug 2007, 9:50 am

alexbeetle wrote:
I find it annoying and frustrating when people interpret me in terms of themselves. I understand where you are coming from and what you were saying to him but if an NT said that then it would be interpreted as avoidance of emotions therefore fear. Also the emotional response to your family may be interpreted as avoidance of being upset at them, when to me it just sounds like you are at a healthy distance from them and can watch dispationately (which seems a very sensible and logic thing).
I saw a counsellor for a while but he got traumatised by some of the things I would tell him about my childhood which I would just relate emotionlessly as it was just information about events that happened. He would go home at the end of work and then the emotions he would feel about the situations apparently caused him distress - therefore emotions are pointless.
Maybe you need to confront your psychiatrist about how it is not appropriate to interpret what you say as he would for an NT client and he needs to better understand the AS mind.


I agree with this. It is pretty clear that your therapist is looking at things from and NT point of view which is totally inappropriate for you! If anything HE is trying to rationalise things that he doesn't understand, rather than trying to see things from your point of view, and trying to think about things from an aspie angle.

I agree with alexbeetle that you either need to confront him and tell him that he needs to appreciate that people with AS cannot be helped by standard NT-style therapy, and that he needs to acquire a better understand ing of AS - or alternatively, you perhaps need to try to find another therapist who unserstands ASDs and who has experience of successfully being able to help people on the spectrum.



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07 Aug 2007, 11:13 am

If there's anything I can't stand, it's a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist who twists what I say into some convenient pigeon-hole that disempowers me. I once tried to tell a pdoc that I don't feel what he was saying that I feel, and he said, "Yes you do" and kept talking. Almost as if I wasn't in the room, describing somebody I'd never heard of.



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07 Aug 2007, 11:45 am

Claradoon wrote:
If there's anything I can't stand, it's a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist who twists what I say into some convenient pigeon-hole that disempowers me. I once tried to tell a pdoc that I don't feel what he was saying that I feel, and he said, "Yes you do" and kept talking. Almost as if I wasn't in the room, describing somebody I'd never heard of.


oh geez, that would be irritating. My therapist is always saying "wow, that is a paradox" or "hmmm.... it is interesting how when I ask you how you feel, you respond with what you think". It is quite irritating to have him interpret almost every single thing I say into his idea of what I *could* mean.

I don't mind if I was expressing something and he could tell me exactly what I was feeling and I could actually agree that it is a possibility. He's done that a few times. For instance, when trying to get to the source of figuring out what somebody is meaning by something they say, I often come across aggressively, and it is generally because they will not stop talking long enough for me to catch up mentally. He mentioned it could be an act of desperation looking for clarity in the meaning. I see how that is possible, because generally I am at my wit's end by that point and am extremely frustrated and confused, so it comes out angrily since I just want the answer so badly. This makes sense that it could be out of desperation for clarity.

I tend to only recognize 5 or 6 emotions in myself-happy, sad, frustrated, confused, withdrawn and numb. That's it. He's often asked me if I was angry about something when talking about it, and I can't really say that I am. I can say I come across that way, but do not understand why I do, and I tend not to think of anger when trying to place what I feel.

My main problem I guess is that I feel a lot of emotion, but cannot figure out which ones I feel at what times, and I feel a lot of things I don't really consider emotion for some reason. I'm just displaced when it comes to that, and he doesn't seem to understand when I say things it should likely be taken at face value, and if I come across wrong, I should be told that I am doing so, lol... because often people think I am feeling certain ways just because I come across in ways unintended.

It is also very irritating when you explain how something happened, and the situation has already been resolved, yet, he still tries to get me to see other perspectives of "what *could* have happened". It just doesn't work usually.

Regardless, I guess that it is a good learning experience overall for him-but every visit with him just makes me question more and more about people, lol.


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07 Aug 2007, 12:12 pm

nobodyzdream wrote:
Claradoon wrote:
If there's anything I can't stand, it's a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist who twists what I say into some convenient pigeon-hole that disempowers me. I once tried to tell a pdoc that I don't feel what he was saying that I feel, and he said, "Yes you do" and kept talking. Almost as if I wasn't in the room, describing somebody I'd never heard of.


oh geez, that would be irritating. My therapist is always saying "wow, that is a paradox" or "hmmm.... it is interesting how when I ask you how you feel, you respond with what you think". It is quite irritating to have him interpret almost every single thing I say into his idea of what I *could* mean.

I don't mind if I was expressing something and he could tell me exactly what I was feeling and I could actually agree that it is a possibility. He's done that a few times. For instance, when trying to get to the source of figuring out what somebody is meaning by something they say, I often come across aggressively, and it is generally because they will not stop talking long enough for me to catch up mentally. He mentioned it could be an act of desperation looking for clarity in the meaning. I see how that is possible, because generally I am at my wit's end by that point and am extremely frustrated and confused, so it comes out angrily since I just want the answer so badly. This makes sense that it could be out of desperation for clarity.

I've never felt comfortable with a therapist. I only went once for a prolonged period (I was in relationship counseling...) and 2 things stuck out to me;
- he always corrected me about what happened and what I felt at that moment. (this frustrated me, but because I (thought I (?)) loved my girlfriend I tried to comply...)
- After 12 sessions (which didn't help one bit) we had to do some sort of psychological association test (100s of questions...) he actually told me I cheated because what the tests showed didn't match with what he observed (not heared) in our sessions... No sh.t Sherlock.... :? (Gotta say though that I appriciated the compliment on my intelligence :wink:)
FYI I was never diagnosed with ASP, only recently found out about it...

BTW I don't know if this is possible in your case; maybe you can try to get a different therapist with maybe some more experience with aspies ?

Quote:
I tend to only recognize 5 or 6 emotions in myself-happy, sad, frustrated, confused, withdrawn and numb. That's it. He's often asked me if I was angry about something when talking about it, and I can't really say that I am. I can say I come across that way, but do not understand why I do, and I tend not to think of anger when trying to place what I feel.

:roll: I must say that I can't think of any more emotions than the ones you typed :roll:
Quote:
My main problem I guess is that I feel a lot of emotion, but cannot figure out which ones I feel at what times, and I feel a lot of things I don't really consider emotion for some reason. I'm just displaced when it comes to that, and he doesn't seem to understand when I say things it should likely be taken at face value, and if I come across wrong, I should be told that I am doing so, lol... because often people think I am feeling certain ways just because I come across in ways unintended.

It is also very irritating when you explain how something happened, and the situation has already been resolved, yet, he still tries to get me to see other perspectives of "what *could* have happened". It just doesn't work usually.

Regardless, I guess that it is a good learning experience overall for him-but every visit with him just makes me question more and more about people, lol.


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nobodyzdream
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07 Aug 2007, 12:24 pm

TomD wrote:
I've never felt comfortable with a therapist. I only went once for a prolonged period (I was in relationship counseling...) and 2 things stuck out to me;
- he always corrected me about what happened and what I felt at that moment. (this frustrated me, but because I (thought I (?)) loved my girlfriend I tried to comply...)
- After 12 sessions (which didn't help one bit) we had to do some sort of psychological association test (100s of questions...) he actually told me I cheated because what the tests showed didn't match with what he observed (not heared) in our sessions... No sh.t Sherlock.... :? (Gotta say though that I appriciated the compliment on my intelligence :wink:)
FYI I was never diagnosed with ASP, only recently found out about it...

BTW I don't know if this is possible in your case; maybe you can try to get a different therapist with maybe some more experience with aspies ?


I could probably try to get a new therapist, but I think this guy might learn something, I dunno. I mean, I think going to a therapist seems to be rather pointless anyway, because they are going to look at things from an emotional level regardless, and not everything needs to be dealt with on that. Or maybe it's just that I analyze things so it doesn't make sense to deal with it in that way.

So I don't really think it matters who I am actually talking to, this is going to crop up with all of them. Maybe I just think this way because people who are not therapists tend to do this with me also at times, lol. They don't understand the irregular bouts of anger (or at least that is what they think it is) over silly things in their minds, and they often don't realize I'm frustrated with the overall situation, or a specific part of the conversation-it is never directed at them, but comes out that way because I have to get the clarification from them.

I often tend to jump to conclusions on things at times as well due to overanalyzing. Recently, my boyfriend mentioned that I shouldn't bother checking out a tech school because he had heard bad stories about them. When I told him I am going to check it out a little, he got very annoyed, even though I never said at any time that I was going to one whether he liked it or not, or something to that degree. He kept pushing it, and I said "the only logical explanation I am getting out of this, from what I am interpreting, is that because it isn't something you would do, or something you think is good for me, you are pushing your opinion on me to try to nudge me in that direction. I don't understand this because I haven't said that I am making any decision at all."

He of course, got offended, not catching the part of me saying that I drew the conclusion because I didn't understand, and therefore I would think it means needing further clarification.

The therapist, of course, said that it was good that I told him how I felt. But to me, I didn't tell him how I felt, I just told him I needed more clarification to understand.


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07 Aug 2007, 1:18 pm

This is an area of interest for me(being a psych major years ago and a "nut" my whole life :wink: )I have had several therepist through out my life,starting at 17 until I gave up on them at 28.All of them had similar responses to me as your therepist.I had no knowledge of AS(all pre 1994)so I couldnt really "defend"my responses to life.

They referred to my emotional expression like they were "droids",all being very similar in their perceptions of me.....

I was "emotional flat" or had "flat effect" or was "emotional blunted".
I was repeatedly told to stop "repressing" my rage and give myself permission to feel my anger,(at my parents bio and adopted)
I cant count the number of times I was told to "stop rationalizing/analyzing/intellectualizing"and "feel my emotions"
It was pointed out to me that the facial expression I had was inconsistent with the topic I was recounting(ie I was repressing)
If I couldnt remember specific events it was because (again)I was repressing(not that the events themselves did not interest me much at the time)


To be fair to these people they were operating under "limited information syndrome"LIS is the same sad thing that made people believe witches had hexed them(before we learned about microbes,viruses and bacteria causing disease)or that people were possessed by demons if they exhibited non typical behavior or thoughts.

Your therapist does not have only that problem(as the information IS available)but also suffers from a case of "Lack of Intellectual Curiosity"LOIC as well as 'inability to see out-side the box he was trained to live in"ITSOTBHWTTLI....Sadly,all the above mentioned syndromes take years of "re-education treatment" and LOIC is something many NT's are simply born without and can only manage to "fake" with practice.

As is relatively new concept for me and I still have much to learn but I have been developing some theories.


I think we do "repress" some emotions because they are such a destraction and a luxury when the majority of our energy is needed to just function within an NT dominated world.I agree that the majority of the time,I dont perceive my "confussion and frustration" as anger,although other people may see my response at "angry" because when I am overwhelmed I am less likely to be able to control "agitated stimming" and "voice modulation"....to an NT who reads NV communication,they show these things when they are angry,so that is how they inturpret my exhibition of cognitive or sensory overload.

I do feel "detached" when I am recounting the majority of my childhood experiences.I know that ,at the time they occured,I felt them deeply.I did not repress them but I am no longer that little person in that particular situation and my feelings about what occured is tempered by maturity.I now realize that my parents are humans who had their own traumas in life that caused them to act in a way that I perceived as hostile.Thats not "intellectualizing"it's simply reality.How is it healthy to hang on to a 6 year olds anger?Other "holes in my memory" are because I was so detached from peer relationships in my lyounger life that I didnt register them as important enough to recall.They didnt "inprint" much because I was more interested in my books and rocks.
Several therepist ,went so far as to try and convince me that I was the "victem" of sexual abuse(because some of my behaviors were similiar to people who were sexually abused).This catch-22 situation was harmful to me because i couldnt deny something that they claimed I had buried.So it left me with "doubt" and paranoia.I dont think that was real healthy either.There circular reason was that I had been abused and repressed it and that was causing my issues and until I could recall the episodes I would continue to suffer the result of this repression.(I thought it was more likely that I was repressing alian abduction but they werent really interested in that theory,lol)The more I protested that I didnt think I was abused,the further proof that I was in deep denial.


I think one of the flaws in traditional therepy for people with AS is that it is based on a "premise" that does not apply to us.They believe that ....

People are "sick" because they repress their childhood memories,traumas and these resurface in odd ways later in life.There objective is to force these repressed emotions to surface so they can "lance" them,like a boil,pull out the toxin and we will "get better".Any denial that you are repressing anything is seen as further proof that you are afraid of your emotions, as are all signs of emotion(or lack of)that dont meet their concept of appropriate emotional response.Any non-verbal movement is inturpreited as a "sign" that you are repressing something.So,an aspie stim that might be from the anxity of talking to another person(one who often doesnt seem to understand you)is seen as "tension created by repression".I relate it to a DR who is so focused on taking out the splinter in your finger that he misses the stick in your eye.

Remedy?Keep looking for a therepist who as a good understanding(and exceptance)of AS perspective.Although it may feel nice to have someone who offers you sympathy,(I used to cry as soon as they asked how I was doing,like a pavlovian dog).It's nice to be the center of attention after feeling invisable most of your life but it doesnt resolve anything.I can respond with emotion,until they ask me a question that involved using my brain to answer.I think it was unhealthy for me to keep recounting my negative childhood experiences....it just made me "live in the past",which wasnt a great place to be the first time.Perhaps it is an OK first step for them to get an idea of your liffe experiences but NOT to stay stuck in it....isnt that the real goal(according to them)to move past it?I dont think what "works" for some one who is NT(if it even does)works for me.


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07 Aug 2007, 2:45 pm

Very interesting. I have too, often wondered how it is healthy to focus on something so negative. But then, in an odd way, I guess they see it as something that needs to be worked out, even if I have accepted it. I mean, why else would someone need therapy except to work out tough situations. I tend to go in, wanting him to understand more than anything else. Sheesh, now that I think about it, I don't even think there is anything that needs to be worked out, lol-not anything he can really help with that is. Maybe that is why they dig so deep?

It is very hard to see why someone would seek therapy when they are telling someone they already know why they do the things they do usually, they have accepted everything that has happened and they no longer have any ties to it, they are simply confused in every day life due to things typical people cannot understand fully, and if one really cannot understand where we are coming from, can they actually help? The idea is somewhat of a paradox in itself, one who knows why they do what they do and react the way they do, so they seek therapy to try to gain some further understanding rather than to actually be in "therapy" as far as what most typicals would need.

I do know when I go in, I don't really seek healing... I just seek understanding to try to figure out exactly why I react to things the way that I do, why I don't understand things the way that most do. I keep going in hopes that this therapist may learn something about AS, I think, rather than to be there because I truly think he can help me. I continue to go, and I KNOW he cannot help me... it doesn't really make much sense, but I've almost contorted it into some weird research type of thing-not meaning to of course, but as I think about it right now, it is the only logical explanation for me to keep going back.

Basically, I go in, and talk to him for an hour... just telling him what I think about things. What do I get out of it? I really do not know... I guess I just hope he can gain some knowledge about it, and fully understand.

When I went in, it was because I had been misdiagnosed with BPD. Father wasn't around, sexual abuse, etc. throughout my life. What sets me aside from that diagnosis? Well, I have absolutely no abandonment issues-I prefer people to leave actually, lol. I don't worry about people leaving me, I accept that people come and go, and it is just how things work. They have no reasons to be "tied down" to me, and I have no reason to be constantly reaching out for them. I don't react to things that have to do with the things that happen to me, I talk about them flatly-they are facts, they happened, oh well, lol. I don't bother wasting my time thinking about them, I don't have emotional reactions talking about them, they are just things that happened. Am I repressing anything? Likely not, as I tend to bring up every possible thing that could be related every single time I am asked. I am not comfortable talking about those things usually, but who wouldn't? It's not like it's the most wonderful thing ever, and I expect it is just a typical reaction to talking about uncomfortable situations, lol. Nothing more. My frustrations always come from people using the wrong words in the wrong context usually, lol.

BPD was removed, so I was just kind of left with a lot of unexplainable things until someone referred me here... then it started making more sense. Everyone says now that I have found out more about autism, I have become a LOT more stable. No more bouts of depression, less misunderstandings, less confusion (though, I'm still generally confused, but not in the same way).

Since I found out, most of the things I originally went in for have faded or died out, as they now make more sense. Not just because other people do it, or because I think I found a label that fits, but I have just gained more understanding all around about it.

I wish the therapist would take a bit of notice about it, lol, but then again, I am the one going to him... I guess I am not *supposed* to be going in just to get him to understand, teach, or try to decipher why he does things the way that he does-it is supposed to be the other way around, lol.


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richardbenson
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07 Aug 2007, 7:55 pm

i still have to make my counceling appointments, because im still trying to figure out if my ghey insurance will pay for it :D


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08 Aug 2007, 12:13 am

richardbenson wrote:
i still have to make my counceling appointments, because im still trying to figure out if my ghey insurance will pay for it :D


lol, here in Missouri I'm on Medicaid currently, and they would not pay for mine. I know no real insurance companies will look at me, lol, so I found a community psychology service. I only pay $12 each appointment :)


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08 Aug 2007, 7:10 am

I've given up on counselling.


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08 Aug 2007, 8:08 am

I think that places like Wrong Planet are much more useful to us all than NT style counselling. For a start, we are pretty much guaranteed to be understood and accepted :) .



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08 Aug 2007, 10:29 am

I am disgusted how people just fall back on excuses with syndromes and disorders...

There is no universal wiring, everyone's different and psychiatry is BS.



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08 Aug 2007, 10:39 am

Kelsi wrote:
I think that places like Wrong Planet are much more useful to us all than NT style counselling. For a start, we are pretty much guaranteed to be understood and accepted :) .


I agree! People here have been much more supportive and offered much better info and advice so far.

I don't think my therapist is actually listening to me. She has a standard called normal (not sure that'd be her exact word, but...) that she measures me against, and her therapy is geared toward making me fit that standard.

She tells me my personality will always be the same, but I can learn to change my behaviors. Frankly right now I don't want to! 8O


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