Aspies as a discriminated upon minority group

Page 2 of 3 [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

darkfire627
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2007
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 117
Location: Missouri

10 Aug 2007, 2:43 am

Greentea wrote:
Is being a penguin a limitation because they can't live in the tropic?

I thought there were tropical penguins. The Hotel I stayed at in Hawaii had penguins and they seemed content.



Sopho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,859

10 Aug 2007, 2:49 am

2ukenkerl wrote:
Rod,

A lot of homosexuals are affected ONLY because they get in peoples faces. They speak of how straight people aren't "persecuted" in such ways. BULL!! !! Straight people often don't flaunt it and it is often considered inappropropriate.

Not because they're straight though. I don't flaunt my sexuality in public, it's only really people who know me online that know I'm not straight. Some gay people are affected because of that. But even then, people should just give them s**t because they're being overtly sexual in public etc., not because they're being overtly gay in public.



Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

10 Aug 2007, 2:50 am

2ukenkerl wrote:
Mitch8817,

You make some good points, BUT....

"We are disabled - we lack typical abilities; human abilities."?

Speak for YOURSELF! Frankly, if left to my OWN devices, I could counter any supposed deficit with an advantage. Frankly, I would end up better. HECK, most things today are done with some assistance. EVEN those that appear to do things manually are benefiting through someone ELSES research.


Yes, we are disabled. We lack the qualities and abilities NT's innately possess. Even if you could force yourself to be better than they are naturally, it is still forced. Just because a guy in a wheelchair can get around faster than me doesn't mean he's not disabled. It's not about 'countering', it's about 'being'.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


Greentea
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,745
Location: Middle East

10 Aug 2007, 3:51 am

"We lack the qualities and abilities NT's innately possess."

Some. And they lack some of ours.

Like there's internalized homophobia, it saddens me to see there's so much internalized aspiephobia in aspies. I guess a couple generations will have to pass before most aspies understand we're equal and not less than NTs. Aspies who don't consider themselves less than are right now a minority within a minority.


_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur.


nellos121
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 3 Aug 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 33

10 Aug 2007, 4:36 am

I am dyslexic and AS. I used to define my dyslexia to my father as one good leg one bad, my left leg is strong whilst my right leg is broken, his right leg is strong whilst his left leg is broken. He'd argue "there's nothing wrong with me lad". Whereas he is good at paperwork, his spatial aptitude is pants, vice versa to me. But because his life is so bounded by organisation and paperwork he can't envisage a world without paperwork so thinks I have no abilities. He sees only the "dis" in dyslexia. If he says do this, I say I'm dyslexic and he says thats an excuse. Yet if there is a spatial aptitude problem I can work it out in a few seconds, it takes him 10 minutes because of the "complexity" of the problem in his eyes, and he better handle it because its highly complex (so he usually makes a mess of it) after all I'm dyslexic. He sees my glass as half empty and his half full. This all stems from me having a diagnosis and him not. The second you start explaining things in terms of broken legs, disabilities, etc, you are asking for trouble. In his eyes I saw a doctor because I don't understand, even though it was me who diagnosed it. I'm not saying either person is right or wrong, but there is no such thing as a diagnosis of dysparietal (the mirror of dyslexia). But I believe if only two people existed in the world, an aspie and an NT. And the NT was diagnosed as being NT and the aspie got no diagnosis, the aspie would start to analyse the NT and come to all sorts of "inferior" theories. NTs rule the world, and exist in the majority. If you try and explain yourself in terms of disability in my opinion you're on a hiding to nothing.



Greentea
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,745
Location: Middle East

10 Aug 2007, 4:52 am

So very well said!

If we defined other minorities by how many aspies define themselves, we'd get...

Black = disability caused by over-pigmentation of the skin and causing severe socialization problems [with the white majority].
Jew = syndrome causing the dellusion of monoteism and causing frequent conflict in relationship [with the politeist majority of the time]
Gay = mental disorder caused by degenerate gene and causing extreme deviation [from the straight majority]
Female = phisiologically underdeveloped male causing inferior brain functioning [according to men]
etc.


_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur.


2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,192

10 Aug 2007, 5:33 am

Mitch8817 wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
Mitch8817,

You make some good points, BUT....

"We are disabled - we lack typical abilities; human abilities."?

Speak for YOURSELF! Frankly, if left to my OWN devices, I could counter any supposed deficit with an advantage. Frankly, I would end up better. HECK, most things today are done with some assistance. EVEN those that appear to do things manually are benefiting through someone ELSES research.


Yes, we are disabled. We lack the qualities and abilities NT's innately possess. Even if you could force yourself to be better than they are naturally, it is still forced. Just because a guy in a wheelchair can get around faster than me doesn't mean he's not disabled. It's not about 'countering', it's about 'being'.


So I am sensitive to certain sounds they aren't. The reverse is probably true. So I am more sensitive to the volume. HEY, that could be a good thing, and that is a MAN MADE event. If need be, I could dreate something much louder and make them deaf in an instant. BESIDES, in EITHER case, I can use earplugs!

So I am more sensitive to light. See above...

So I am relatively insensitive to pain and cold. So far, that has been a BENEFIT! They laugh, but it allows me to do things and possibly risk things they don't.

So I am not social. That may have even saved my life, who knows. And HEY, a lot of NTs are worse than I am.

So I am more logical and smart. HEY, since WHEN is that a disability?

So I learn differently. Let me tell you something. If we had to fend for food, or do natural things, it would be the perfect environment for me to learn. AGAIN, NOT a disadvantage. Frankly, I got were I am by keeping ahead of others, so NOT a disability.

My stims aren't even really obvious. Oh well, various muscles get a bit of a workout.

So I have meltdowns. They are usually triggered by close quarter people, or a lot of stress. I don't CHOOSE to change that because of society or work. Still, I am probably not that much worse than the average NT, and recognize it. Everyone has a weekness, and FEW people like that. I had one teacher that tried that as a punishment, and ended up getting hurt bad for it. And I wasn't the one that did the damage.

I HATE lying, but I could.

I'm still having trouble seeing how it is definitely such a disability and they are somehow better.

As so many others have said, it is the environment for/by them that created the problem. Have you ever seen the sci-fi shows about people that try terra forming?



Greentea
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,745
Location: Middle East

10 Aug 2007, 5:55 am

So true!


_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur.


Rossi
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 60
Location: Germany

10 Aug 2007, 1:06 pm

Greentea wrote:
If we defined other minorities by how many aspies define themselves, we'd get...

Black = disability caused by over-pigmentation of the skin and causing severe socialization problems [with the white majority].
Jew = syndrome causing the dellusion of monoteism and causing frequent conflict in relationship [with the politeist majority of the time]
Gay = mental disorder caused by degenerate gene and causing extreme deviation [from the straight majority]
Female = phisiologically underdeveloped male causing inferior brain functioning [according to men]
etc.


That's comparing apples and peas ... blacks do not have any impairments in functioning caused originally by their skin colour, that's just something made up by those discriminating others. Same is valid for Jews, Gays and females - all of them DO NOT differ from "typical" people or the "majority" in their abilities to function in the basic areas of a human life.
(Although of course you could define homosexuality as a kind of disability as it usually prevents you from reproducing yourself, but so what)
And of course "typical" people have a range of abilities in which they are better or worse, they have good capabilities in some areas and are weaker in others.

Autism and Aspergers in opposite is DEFINED by impairments (or call it differences if you like), which lead to "clinically significant" problems or disabilities in important areas, such as communication, social cues, cognition ... what's the problem of calling them disabilities ? They are ! The huge majority of human beings obviously have no problems in those areas (incl Jews, blacks, females and gays) - a majority that seems to be in a range of 150-300 times more.

So - true pride would be if you can stand up and say "hey looks like I am disabled but who cares, I live MY life as good and as happy and as self-confident as I can !" instead of hiding yourself behind euphemisms like "neurodiversity"



KingdomOfRats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,833
Location: f'ton,manchester UK

10 Aug 2007, 2:32 pm

if people do not want to see aspergers as a disability,why not stop using it to do with self-see self as just neuro diverse instead,why not refuse to get any sort of benefits and free...things [bus passes etc] due to having aspergers,why use a label-which officially states that a person has a disability and a whole list of impairments that affect them from day to day,if not actually impaired by it?
if diagnosed as adult,why chose to be diagnosed and then say aspergers is not a disability when a carefully read up self diagnosis can be all that is needed?
it would leave the label for the aspergists who are impaired to be understood better and get better support as the SS and others all see AS as the highest functioning mildest case.



2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,192

10 Aug 2007, 5:12 pm

Rossi wrote:
Greentea wrote:
If we defined other minorities by how many aspies define themselves, we'd get...

Black = disability caused by over-pigmentation of the skin and causing severe socialization problems [with the white majority].
Jew = syndrome causing the dellusion of monoteism and causing frequent conflict in relationship [with the politeist majority of the time]
Gay = mental disorder caused by degenerate gene and causing extreme deviation [from the straight majority]
Female = phisiologically underdeveloped male causing inferior brain functioning [according to men]
etc.


That's comparing apples and peas ... blacks do not have any impairments in functioning caused originally by their skin colour, that's just something made up by those discriminating others. Same is valid for Jews, Gays and females - all of them DO NOT differ from "typical" people or the "majority" in their abilities to function in the basic areas of a human life.
(Although of course you could define homosexuality as a kind of disability as it usually prevents you from reproducing yourself, but so what)
And of course "typical" people have a range of abilities in which they are better or worse, they have good capabilities in some areas and are weaker in others.

Autism and Aspergers in opposite is DEFINED by impairments (or call it differences if you like), which lead to "clinically significant" problems or disabilities in important areas, such as communication, social cues, cognition ... what's the problem of calling them disabilities ? They are ! The huge majority of human beings obviously have no problems in those areas (incl Jews, blacks, females and gays) - a majority that seems to be in a range of 150-300 times more.

So - true pride would be if you can stand up and say "hey looks like I am disabled but who cares, I live MY life as good and as happy and as self-confident as I can !" instead of hiding yourself behind euphemisms like "neurodiversity"


WOW, could you imagine what would happen to society if the average male REALLY viewed females as just underdeveloped males? WOW!

Anyway, at one point, Jews, Blacks, homosexuals DID, at least in MOST areas, have all the problems that people with AS had! PERSECUTED(Like AS people feel with sensitivity problems), UNDEREDUCATED punished, and kept down(Like AS people with some related problems), and social problems were bad ALSO, right down to causing problems with sex.

In several ways, women were treated better, and they are often half of the equation.

CLINICALLY significant can be open to debate.

BTW I HAVE said "HEY, I LOOK....It LOOKS like...". Again, LOOKS! Appears! Isn't necessarily.... And I acknowledge my problems. I always have! AS gives a name to most of them. SO WHAT!?



Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

10 Aug 2007, 10:24 pm

Greentea wrote:
"We lack the qualities and abilities NT's innately possess."

Some. And they lack some of ours.

Like there's internalized homophobia, it saddens me to see there's so much internalized aspiephobia in aspies. I guess a couple generations will have to pass before most aspies understand we're equal and not less than NTs. Aspies who don't consider themselves less than are right now a minority within a minority.


How are we equal? I don't fear or hate Aspies, I just want them to be realistic. Sure, be proud about yourself, but don't be ignorant. The way the world stands and the way humans are designed, we are at a disadvantage.

2ukenkerl, you just tried to defend meltdowns, antisocialness and stims, then you ask how it is a disability. You do realise that the sheer majority of NT's don't have meltdowns? Can hold a conversation? Don't stim? These are typical things. You are another Aspie in denial. But fair enough I suppose; people don't like to undermine themselves with truth.

They are in the majority, 'NT' isn't classified as a syndrome and the world is a social one = we have a clear disability. Who cares how well you can disguise or hide them, or if you find cases of an NT who is antisocial or is sensitive to certain stimuli; I've never heard of those as being diagnostic characteristics.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,192

10 Aug 2007, 11:49 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
Greentea wrote:
"We lack the qualities and abilities NT's innately possess."

Some. And they lack some of ours.

Like there's internalized homophobia, it saddens me to see there's so much internalized aspiephobia in aspies. I guess a couple generations will have to pass before most aspies understand we're equal and not less than NTs. Aspies who don't consider themselves less than are right now a minority within a minority.


How are we equal? I don't fear or hate Aspies, I just want them to be realistic. Sure, be proud about yourself, but don't be ignorant. The way the world stands and the way humans are designed, we are at a disadvantage.

2ukenkerl, you just tried to defend meltdowns, antisocialness and stims, then you ask how it is a disability. You do realise that the sheer majority of NT's don't have meltdowns? Can hold a conversation? Don't stim? These are typical things. You are another Aspie in denial. But fair enough I suppose; people don't like to undermine themselves with truth.

They are in the majority, 'NT' isn't classified as a syndrome and the world is a social one = we have a clear disability. Who cares how well you can disguise or hide them, or if you find cases of an NT who is antisocial or is sensitive to certain stimuli; I've never heard of those as being diagnostic characteristics.


Mitch,

DEFEND meltdowns? NO! HEY, I do so much better when they DON'T occur, that the deficits when they occur do NOT cancel out the benefits Besides, how does that one thing make me less able than an NT?

I can hold a conversation as much as I want. If I don't want to, WHO CARES?!?!?

Stim? Hey, how is that a disability? AND, if it IS, I can just stop.

Not heard of them as being diagnostic criteria? You haven't bothered looking! 8O :?

BTW SOME have more a disability than I do. Labpet, for example. She also has some nice abilities though. And she seems to be kind of happy over all. You know, technology will NEVER allow for anything to be perfect. In theory it just won't happen. Computers, for example. You can get a BIG one that is light for its size, with lots of components, etc... A smaller one would work better on a plane, and use less power and generate less heat. WHICH is better? A GOOD answer is IT DEPENDS! Aspie or NT? WHICH is better? AGAIN, that famous answer.



sebbs
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 5 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 73

10 Aug 2007, 11:57 pm

juliekitty wrote:
A lot of us think our Canadian Prime Minister is aspie.

i wanna move to canada, they would let me have a wolfdog.


_________________
- i am not a piece of your puzzle, you cant make me fit -


2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,192

11 Aug 2007, 12:10 am

BTW Mitch,

Why are you so against aspies? Your profile says you are diagnosed. Are you? Maybe you should REALLY try to list your problems AND your benefits. When I think of the benefits I have had historically, even those I don't often seem to have now ALONE, WOW!

HEY, I have problems. Some things I hate. Some things that have eluded me, and my dumbest mistakes, I now realize were because of AS. But I have had some good, and some real insight, and THAT is because of AS!

Still, I have known even when I was a little kid that I might as well have had a lobotomy, because they subjected me to so much, and the "education" was SO bad. If I had a kid with even 75% of the potential, he or she would be SO much better!



Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

11 Aug 2007, 12:52 am

2ukenkerl wrote:
Mitch,

DEFEND meltdowns? NO! HEY, I do so much better when they DON'T occur, that the deficits when they occur do NOT cancel out the benefits Besides, how does that one thing make me less able than an NT?


What benefits? The benefits of having a meltdown?
It makes you less able then an NT because typically, NT's don't get meltdowns.

2ukenkerl wrote:
Not heard of them as being diagnostic criteria? You haven't bothered looking! 8O :?


I was referring to NT's - they don't have a diagnostic criteria, and those things I listed aren't prerequisites for being an NT, as they are for being an Aspie (which was my point).

2ukenkerl wrote:
BTW SOME have more a disability than I do. Labpet, for example. She also has some nice abilities though. And she seems to be kind of happy over all. You know, technology will NEVER allow for anything to be perfect. In theory it just won't happen. Computers, for example. You can get a BIG one that is light for its size, with lots of components, etc... A smaller one would work better on a plane, and use less power and generate less heat. WHICH is better? A GOOD answer is IT DEPENDS! Aspie or NT? WHICH is better? AGAIN, that famous answer.


I realise that nothing will be perfect, but NT's function that bit bitter. They can adapt, change, show empathy, use and understand body language etc. etc. We can't. We are disadvantaged. I'm tired of repeating myself.

In regards to the second post, I am not against Aspies. I said this in my last post on the first line, did you bother reading it? If my profile says I'm diagnosed, than that would mean that I am. Or are you calling me a liar? Jeez, I must be a troll because I'm honest about my feelings and have posted over 2000 times.

I know that we have benefits, I'm not in denial or trying to beat myself up. I am saying that the benefits are outweighed by the negatives BECAUSE of the way this world is - the expectations and (lack of) understandings. If you doubt this, go take a read in The Haven and get back to me.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack