Are NTs illogical? Or do they use different logic to us?

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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 6:26 am

I often find myself in weird conversations where I point out something logical and clear, but NTs get angry. They go off into some fanciful conversation about how I'm wrong and I've misunderstood when I actually haven't.

e.g. today it was when someone said there was no solution to the NHS's problems. I pointed out that the government would 'solve' the problems by moving Britain onto the American system of insurance-based healthcare. I then got attacked by friends (not trolls) who said that was just my opinion and I shouldn't believe the media and why was I bringing the government into the conversation?

It was so bizarre that I was almost laughing. One of them seemed to be disagreeing with me about the NHS yet agreeing with me at the same time. It was like they had a split personality, each comment was a different point of view.

This has happened a lot. I make an innocuous comment about something that is obvious to me, and people go off on angry tangents, take offence, maybe read ulterior motives into what I say. This NHS one was the silliest though, I was just pointing out the facts that are clearly reported by the media, individuals, the government etc.

What is wrong with NTs?


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Joe90
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29 Dec 2022, 6:48 am

It's probably because it's not really what they want to hear. Sometimes when you mention on WP about the NHS collapsing it triggers my anxiety and I feel it's better to not know these scary things.

I'm quite illogical, which is one thing I find I can't see eye to eye with other spectrumers on. Sometimes reassurance helps me more than the blunt truth. I hate truth and to ease my anxiety things need to be sugarcoated.

It's like when there were riots going on in London and Essex back in the summer of 2011, and I got anxious about it and I asked my mum if they were going to do it in our town. She was a very pessimistic thinker and she just bluntly said "yes, they probably will", even though her intention wasn't to scare me. The more I panicked the more she said things that were too logical for me to take, like "well you can't do anything about it" and all that. It sent me into full blown panic mode and I went hysterical, screaming and yelling on the kitchen floor.
The riots never happened in our town by the way.


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timf
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29 Dec 2022, 7:15 am

Using the neurological variant model of Aspergers (faster, more complex, or more sensitive neurology), one might see logical analysis as a coping strategy for the neurologically diverse. Those who do not have to deal with an avalanche of sensations and thoughts may be more free to indulge in what provides emotional comfort and pleasure.

Consider an argument between a husband and a wife where the wife declares, "You never talk to me". To which the husband replies, "What do you think I am doing now". This can capture the problem when one person uses language to express emotion and the other uses it to express logic.

It can be useful to identify the audience and consider if what one says well be considered rationally or within the context of emotional sensation. Sometimes silence can be golden.



techstepgenr8tion
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29 Dec 2022, 7:38 am

A couple modern philosophers who helped me understand NT's better and confirm what I already did understand - John Gray (particularly his book 'Straw Dogs') and pretty much any of Rene Girard's corpus of work, of which you're perhaps best getting either a 'selected works' or some overview, maybe a long-form Youtube podcast by an academic, to figure out whether that yields enough insight or whether there's specific books you'd want to drill down into.


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:14 am

Joe90 wrote:
It's probably because it's not really what they want to hear. Sometimes when you mention on WP about the NHS collapsing it triggers my anxiety and I feel it's better to not know these scary things.

I'm quite illogical, which is one thing I find I can't see eye to eye with other spectrumers on. Sometimes reassurance helps me more than the blunt truth. I hate truth and to ease my anxiety things need to be sugarcoated.

It's like when there were riots going on in London and Essex back in the summer of 2011, and I got anxious about it and I asked my mum if they were going to do it in our town. She was a very pessimistic thinker and she just bluntly said "yes, they probably will", even though her intention wasn't to scare me. The more I panicked the more she said things that were too logical for me to take, like "well you can't do anything about it" and all that. It sent me into full blown panic mode and I went hysterical, screaming and yelling on the kitchen floor.
The riots never happened in our town by the way.


That is really helpful, Joe, thanks! That explained a lot to me about NTs. I guess I'd be upset too if it was something I didn't want to think about. Usually however I've carefully thought everything through and come to terms with it long ago. I suppose most people haven't. I think I'm somewhat of a seer or predicter, because many, many times I can forecast what is going to happen. People always mock me, yet it always comes true. Well 99% of the time anyway! But I'm too nice to say 'I told you so!'

I often predict things in order to stop them happening anyway. I think if I try to warn people in advance, they can take action to stop it. But usually they just start denying it and panicking, which isn't helpful.

I wouldn't tell my child that however, I think it was a bit unwise of your mum to tell her own child something pessimistic. I tell my daughter the rosy version of everything because I don't want to scare her.


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:20 am

timf wrote:
Using the neurological variant model of Aspergers (faster, more complex, or more sensitive neurology), one might see logical analysis as a coping strategy for the neurologically diverse. Those who do not have to deal with an avalanche of sensations and thoughts may be more free to indulge in what provides emotional comfort and pleasure.

It can be useful to identify the audience and consider if what one says well be considered rationally or within the context of emotional sensation. Sometimes silence can be golden.


It's funny because I'm usually an emotional, oversensitive type of person. I suppose with some things however, I've thought through the situation and come to terms with it long ago, and it doesn't occur to me that other people haven't.

Some situations are so difficult because the person I'm talking to has previously been rational and logical, then suddenly BOOM they go off on a rant and react to something. I can't possibly guess what other people's triggers are so I'm left floundering.

I don't want to stay silent all my life though, because everything I say seems to trigger someone or other. Maybe I should tape over my mouth and just nod at people.
:shrug:


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:21 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
A couple modern philosophers who helped me understand NT's better and confirm what I already did understand - John Gray (particularly his book 'Straw Dogs') and pretty much any of Rene Girard's corpus of work, of which you're perhaps best getting either a 'selected works' or some overview, maybe a long-form Youtube podcast by an academic, to figure out whether that yields enough insight or whether there's specific books you'd want to drill down into.


I've read a few of John Gray's lighter books. It's so tiring working out how NTs tick though, I'm worn out...


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techstepgenr8tion
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29 Dec 2022, 8:30 am

KitLily wrote:
I've read a few of John Gray's lighter books. It's so tiring working out how NTs tick though, I'm worn out...

It won't get better. The trick is make sure you get as much rest as you can manage, otherwise their world is (I think meant to be) death by a thousand cuts.


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:35 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I've read a few of John Gray's lighter books. It's so tiring working out how NTs tick though, I'm worn out...

It won't get better. The trick is make sure you get as much rest as you can manage, otherwise their world is (I think meant to be) death by a thousand cuts.


It's definitely got worse as I've got older. When I was young, I was seen as that funny, quirky young girl. But now I'm seen as that weird, intimidating old woman. People aren't so forgiving when you're 50 something, whereas they are more forgiving if you're 20 something.

NTs are so obnoxious. We're told to communicate clearly and honestly, but they don't like that. They prefer hints and allusions, suggestions and above all, flattery! I don't do flattery. Unless it's genuine of course!


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techstepgenr8tion
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29 Dec 2022, 8:42 am

^^

I'm still trying to sort out what I do about it. Living at home and investing as much as I can seems like it's one path. In my 30's I lost any faith that the work world actually leads anywhere, other than a kind of professionally dressed junior high and - if you're doing everything you're 'supposed to' do - it's a treadmill you can't get off of.

My biggest hope is to find means of financial self-reliance to a degree that I can choose who I engage with. I'm realizing what a privilege it is for anyone to have that these days, I just don't see any alternatives because to stay there is too risky for both well being and integrity.


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29 Dec 2022, 8:48 am

Different logic that runs on cultural and this social subconscious presumptions as a base.

Like how I'm offering an exchange and contribute information and experience meant I'm putting some sort of foot on some door and scream 'I'm more valuable/more important than you'. :roll:


Like how I asked my boss how specifically many snacks did she want me to buy for her.

Then she came to this presumption that I want snacks too and I want her to buy more so I could have them. :roll:

And what my sped teacher told me is this unspoken measurement as to what are the snacks are for to figure it out myself as to how many I should buy, as opposed to directly ask what the specific amount to proceed with how many snacks I need to buy for her.


I speak an entirely different language from everyone I know and I'm (frustratingly) quite aware of it.

There's nothing wrong with NTs. It's just that this is their world, and it's what they're accustomed to whatever language they're speaking.


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Last edited by Edna3362 on 29 Dec 2022, 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:55 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
^^

I'm still trying to sort out what I do about it. Living at home and investing as much as I can seems like it's one path. In my 30's I lost any faith that the work world actually leads anywhere, other than a kind of professionally dressed junior high and - if you're doing everything you're 'supposed to' do - it's a treadmill you can't get off of.

My biggest hope is to find means of financial self-reliance to a degree that I can choose who I engage with. I'm realizing what a privilege it is for anyone to have that these days, I just don't see any alternatives because to stay there is too risky for both well being and integrity.


Yes. Unfortunately the only way to independence and possible happiness these days seems to have lots and lots of money. I've given up on finding a group of friends who understand me.


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 8:59 am

Edna3362 wrote:
I speak an entirely different language from everyone I know and I'm (frustratingly) quite aware of it.

There's nothing wrong with NTs. It's just that this is their world, and it's what they're accustomed to.


I know what you mean there. I seem to speak a different language to everyone else too, I'm not like anyone else I know. It's definitely getting worse as time passes, more humans are born, the world gets more crowded and impatient and intolerant. When I was young, people were interested and curious about why I was quirky, different and unique. These days they are just angry and judgemental.

I read once that most humans are born with the neurons in their brains arranged horizontally. Those humans are all the same. Whereas some humans are born with the neurons in their brains arranged vertically. Every single 'vertical' human is different to everyone else.

It was something like that anyway. It seems pretty hopeless if no one can communicate with anyone else.


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techstepgenr8tion
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29 Dec 2022, 9:08 am

A channel some of you might enjoy for the workplace...erm... stuff (sadly it's almost too close to the truth to be funny).


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29 Dec 2022, 9:31 am

KitLily wrote:
It was something like that anyway. It seems pretty hopeless if no one can communicate with anyone else.

Life becomes then a shared experience between you and your own consciousness, because the outside world is a cluster and because your own internal experience deserves better than getting constantly battered by other people's mistakes, solipsism, mental blocks, algorithmic social climbing, etc..

That's one of the things I'm trying to re-teach myself, to tune out the absurd and not flog myself all day long for being able to chain two coherent sentences together.


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KitLily
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29 Dec 2022, 9:34 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
KitLily wrote:
It was something like that anyway. It seems pretty hopeless if no one can communicate with anyone else.

Life becomes then a shared experience between you and your own consciousness, because the outside world is a cluster and because your own internal experience deserves better than getting constantly battered by other people's mistakes, solipsism, mental blocks, algorithmic social climbing, etc..

That's one of the things I'm trying to re-teach myself, to tune out the absurd and not beat myself all day long for being able to chain two coherent sentences together.


I think I'm learning that. Instead of looking outside of myself for friends and experiences, I'm befriending myself and working out what IIII think about things and doing what IIII enjoy instead. If I have to go to places and do activities by myself, so be it.


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