Page 2 of 5 [ 65 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Goche21
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 2 Oct 2007
Age: 31
Gender: Female
Posts: 471

24 Jan 2008, 12:34 am

For aspergers I think that a person should decide if they want to take the cure or not, fur autism, maybe it would be best. I've been around twin boys way down on the spectrum, one could barely function in school and was teased constantly, the other needed to wear an adult diaper, couldn't walk, could barely talk, and stayed at home all the time. They need constant care and can't function on their own. ((I did teach the first one how to make basic no cooking required foods though)) Maybe someone like them would benifit from a 'cure'.



Liopleurodon
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 214
Location: The Tethys Sea

24 Jan 2008, 7:25 am

The thing is that being AS both prevents me from doing a lot of the social stuff that people of my age often do, and prevents me from wanting to do it. So in a sense it's neutral.

You couldn't cure me without turning me into a completely different person. I have absolutely no idea what it would even mean to be cured.


_________________
Do I look like a freaking people person?


Mikhaillost
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 383

24 Jan 2008, 8:44 am

I would not like a cure because I don't like the thought of socializing anyways and I can't imagine it being any better if I were an NT.

I think I my third grade self could have chosen though it would have been a whole hearted yes. Now I am past all that crap and I have come to know me and a couple other people. so now that I am a fully developed big person I think I don't want one.



Odin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,498
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA

24 Jan 2008, 8:55 am

I don't want a "cure" because there is nothing objectively "wrong" with me, society considers me "defective" simply because I don't fit with the extroversion-centered and groupthink-centered thought processes of NTs.


_________________
My Blog: My Autistic Life


Odin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,498
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA

24 Jan 2008, 9:01 am

zendell wrote:
The reason some people with AS don't want a cure is because they are high.

Several scientific studies have found high levels of beta-endorphins in autistics. Beta-endorphins are similar to opiates and make a person feel high. People who are high on opiates feel good being alone. The opiates are why some autistics are less sensitive to pain. NTs who don't have this problem socialize to feel good. Socializing may make NTs feel good by increasing levels of beta-endorphins.

The source is undigested wheat and milk proteins. Two treatments are gluten-free/casein-free diet or the drug naltrexone which is used in heroin addicts to block the effects of the opiates. Probiotics improve digestion and may cure the opiate problem.

Quote:
Naltrexone blocks the action of endogenous opioids at opiate receptors; endorphins are opiate-like substances in the brain and are associated with pleasure (e.g., runners' 'high,' sexual activity) and/or an anesthetic-like feeling. Research has shown that many autistic individuals have high levels of beta-endorphins in their central nervous system. Since naltrexone blocks the action of opiate receptors, it thus reduces their level of endorphins...Some of the improvements noted in autistic individuals who have taken naltrexone include: increased socialization, eye contact, and general happiness; normalized pain sensitivity; and a reduction in self-injury and stereotypic (self-stimulatory) behaviors.

http://www.autism.org/naltrex.html


Quote:
The high levels of beta-endorphins allow the autistic person to receive excess stimulation from the opioid reward pathway. Interestingly, researchers suggest that the ability to create an internal excitement or high might be the cause of anti-social behavior in autistic people (Panksepp 1979). Thus, perhaps autistic individuals do not socialize because they have a condition that allows that to experience pleasurable sensations within themselves.

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/ ... /_383.html


Or maybe that's just a TOTALLY NORMAL introvert thing in general to have higher then average levels of beta-endorphins. How typical of our extroversion-centered society to consider the extroverted brain "normal"


_________________
My Blog: My Autistic Life


zen_mistress
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,320

24 Jan 2008, 9:06 am

zendell wrote:
Several scientific studies have found high levels of beta-endorphins in autistics. Beta-endorphins are similar to opiates and make a person feel high. People who are high on opiates feel good being alone. The opiates are why some autistics are less sensitive to pain. NTs who don't have this problem socialize to feel good. Socializing may make NTs feel good by increasing levels of beta-endorphins.

The high levels of beta-endorphins allow the autistic person to receive excess stimulation from the opioid reward pathway. Interestingly, researchers suggest that the ability to create an internal excitement or high might be the cause of anti-social behavior in autistic people (Panksepp 1979). Thus, perhaps autistic individuals do not socialize because they have a condition that allows that to experience pleasurable sensations within themselves.

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/ ... /_383.html


That is really interesting. I have a low pain threshold, I think I am often pretty low in endorphins..

I know a lot of aspies who say they enjoy being alone and can entertain themselves with interests and activities.

But for me I cant be alone for very long... I like being with people and enjoy talking to them and wish I could spend more time with them. Being socially impaired ruins this for me.

I wonder if there is a link between me having a lower pain threshold and me wanting to be with people. Hmmm....

Odin wrote:
Or maybe that's just a TOTALLY NORMAL introvert thing in general to have higher then average levels of beta-endorphins. How typical of our extroversion-centered society to consider the extroverted brain "normal"


Yes this is not fair to do that. Studies show that about 30% of the population is introverted, that figure is high enough to indicate that being introverted is a common human state.


_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.


anbuend
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Jul 2004
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,482

24 Jan 2008, 10:37 am

zendell wrote:
The reason some people with AS don't want a cure is because they are high.

Several scientific studies have found high levels of beta-endorphins in autistics. Beta-endorphins are similar to opiates and make a person feel high. People who are high on opiates feel good being alone. The opiates are why some autistics are less sensitive to pain. NTs who don't have this problem socialize to feel good. Socializing may make NTs feel good by increasing levels of beta-endorphins.

The source is undigested wheat and milk proteins. Two treatments are gluten-free/casein-free diet or the drug naltrexone which is used in heroin addicts to block the effects of the opiates. Probiotics improve digestion and may cure the opiate problem.


How do you explain autistic people who like socializing then? Or the many, many people who are GF/CF and just as autistic as before? For instance, GF/CF doesn't make me even one tiny bit less autistic. Neither do probiotics.

And opiates, even too many of them for me to handle, don't make me more autistic, they just make me some combination of sleepy, nauseated, and migraine- and seizure-prone, and on exactly one occasion goofy and out-of-it (but not happy). And I don't generally get high off opiates or have any desire to stay on them, nor do I get any pleasant feeling whatsoever out of gluten or casein, even after a long time on a GF/CF diet (and going back on them even after a long time on that diet does not cause me the other symptoms that opiates cause me either). A few times, in emergency rooms, I have been given opiates in an IV form, and experienced something similar to what druggies feel when they call something a "rush", something they like. I would never have recognized it as such without someone explaining it though, because I feel such a sensation in a purely unpleasant sense -- in other words, I'm not wired for heroin addiction (people who aren't, don't experience that stuff as pleasant, and a lot of people aren't -- people who are, on the other hand, experience a high they find pleasant as well as a rush they find pleasant, whereas I don't experience either, I just experience those same things as unpleasant).

Additionally, a person who is on opiates in a long-term way, which is how a person would be who somehow got opiates off of gluten and casein, gets no high off of them whatsoever. Addicts are the only ones who get high off them for an extended period of time, and that is because they keep raising and raising the dosage all the time. Patients on long-term opiate treatment develop a physical dependence on them, but not a psychological dependence, unless they are misusing the drugs they are prescribed, because after awhile there is no high or rush or anything addicts want. Patients on long-term opiate treatment who are non-autistic, are just as social as they always were, they just have less pain (which can in fact make them more able to be social than when they were in too much pain to be social).

So, if a person were to want to get high off of gluten and casein (were this even possible), they would have to eat ever-increasing amounts of gluten and casein to do so. I certainly do nothing like that, nor do any autistic people I know, although I do know some autistic people with celiac, and they don't eat gluten and sometimes casein. And in their cases they are no less autistic, they just have fewer digestive problems.

In addition, one would think that if gluten and casein caused opiate-like symptoms, that a person who had been GF/CF for many years, could die of opiate overdose after suddenly eating a whole lot of gluten and casein. I have never heard of that happening. (And if there is some kind of leveling-off point past which a person can't have any more opiates released into their system, then there is also no possibility of a long-term high, because a person would reach that leveling-off point and stay at it, and then cease to feel any high from these foods at all.) One would also expect symptoms such as severely depressed breathing to be present (and depressed breathing is not the same thing as asthma, it means very slow, shallow breathing). And also small pupils (whereas many autistic people actually have very large pupils).

So... basically... if you take your theory logically, it doesn't make sense. Yes, some people are celiac etc. The vast majority of autistic/celiac people I know don't become more social after they stop eating gluten and casein, unless it's because the pain was making them less able to socialize. (And that is true of any other pain-causing condition as well.)

Additionally, I socialize every day, and it feels good to me to do so. I socialize online of course (like everyone here is doing), and I also have a cat and a dog who it feels good to socialize with (the cat lives here every day, the dog goes somewhere else on weekends), and a human friend that it feels good to socialize with that I see almost every day at this point. According to your theory, this is not possible for an autistic person, because I'd be too wrapped up in my supposed opiate-induced high to socialize with people.

Additionally, the differences that exist in autistic people (which have been studied to death by now) are present in both social and non-social situations, which makes the idea that socialization is the only thing affected by being autistic become less and less likely. Additionally, one would expect need for the GF/CF diet to be correlated to introversion (by which I'm meaning how much or little desire a person has for socialization), in both autistic and non-autistic people. And I haven't seen that to be the case -- I know extraverted autistic people who need it, as well as introverted ones, and also the same in people who don't need it.

And does opiate addiction make people score higher than normal on Block Design, or have a discrepancy between tested IQ on Weschler scales versus Raven's Progressive Matrices? Does it normally result in a peculiarly autistic pattern of strengths? Do children who have to take opiates early in life due to pain conditions develop autism, including autistic talents?

So... none of that theory makes sense, but way to insult a lot of autistic people.


_________________
"In my world it's a place of patterns and feel. In my world it's a haven for what is real. It's my world, nobody can steal it, but people like me, we live in the shadows." -Donna Williams


KimJ
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,540
Location: Arizona

24 Jan 2008, 11:06 am

zendell just loves finding environmental scapegoats for the "real" reason for autism and then presenting it as fact. He isn't a scientist and has stated that he doesn't always understand what he's reading, yet he'll quote it as Gospel anyways. I find most of theories insulting as they generally blame the "mother".
The fact is there a gazillion speculations out there and only a few known true, constant correlations with autism.



zen_mistress
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,320

24 Jan 2008, 11:16 am

I went looking for articles about autism and endorphins and I found some studies which found that autistics had higher than average endorphin levels. The search also showed studies where the opposite had been the case: autistics with lower endorphins.

http://www.autism.org/social.html

I dont know how scientific this page is or anything, but perhaps endorphins do play a part in how sociable someone might be.. Perhaps there are ASD people with high natural endorphins, some with medium and some with low natural endorphins.

Autistic people and Aspergers people seem to display variety in their needs for aloneness or company and there seems to be more than one way in which this can present itself.

Anyway very confusing...


_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.


zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

24 Jan 2008, 1:08 pm

Odin wrote:
Or maybe that's just a TOTALLY NORMAL introvert thing in general to have higher then average levels of beta-endorphins. How typical of our extroversion-centered society to consider the extroverted brain "normal"


I never wrote that I have a problem with autism or being introverted. I merely offered an explanation of one cause autistics being happy alone and thinking they don't want to be cured. I would agree with you that's it's normal if they didn't trace the problem to a defective enzyme. Some NTs acquire this problem (something inhibiting the enzyme that digests these foods) as adults.



Last edited by zendell on 24 Jan 2008, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

24 Jan 2008, 1:11 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
That is really interesting. I have a low pain threshold, I think I am often pretty low in endorphins..

I know a lot of aspies who say they enjoy being alone and can entertain themselves with interests and activities.

But for me I cant be alone for very long... I like being with people and enjoy talking to them and wish I could spend more time with them. Being socially impaired ruins this for me.

I wonder if there is a link between me having a lower pain threshold and me wanting to be with people. Hmmm....


I used to have a low pain threshold and also wanted to be around other people. The gfcf diet normalized my pain threshold and made we want to be around people even more.



Vexcalibur
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,573

24 Jan 2008, 1:42 pm

digger1 wrote:
I've always been puzzled as to why a lot of you say that you don't want a cure for Asperger's. I kept thinking, "you don't want friends and for people to understand you?"

then I thought that I have certain things about myself that I attribute to my AS: My appreciation for the little things in life - wildlife, smells from a bakery, the way clouds look like things... also my insistence for use of proper grammar and spelling. I don't like kids spelling words with an unnecessary Z (eg, boyz) or what have you or using an apostrophe when a words ends with S but isn't possessive (eg, "Silly Boys - Jeep's are for Girls"). Not to mention lying and doing reckless and sometimes illegal things like doing "donuts" in a parking lot or racing through a red light. I got thinking, "if that's what it means to be NT, I want no part of it".
I am not so sure people actually understand NTs.



zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

24 Jan 2008, 1:54 pm

anbuend wrote:
How do you explain autistic people who like socializing then? Or the many, many people who are GF/CF and just as autistic as before? For instance, GF/CF doesn't make me even one tiny bit less autistic. Neither do probiotics.


This is very easy to explain. Opiates make a person feel good. People who feel better have less incentive to go do something to feel good. Opiates reduce the need to socialize. I didn't write that the slightest bit of opiates causes a person to be completely self-absorbed and avoid others. I liked socializing even when I had high levels of opiates. I like it even more when I'm on the gfcf diet. Heroin addicts like to socialize too, just not as much as when they're not using heroin. The anecdotal report that the diet or probiotics don't work for you means nothing. Not everyone with AS has trouble digesting wheat and milk. I never said this was the sole cause of autism. They both made a huge difference for me. I'm definitely less autistic now. Scientific studies show these make others less autistic. Sorry to hear it didn't help you.

I used to feel like a drug addict except I was addicted to wheat and milk. I definitely felt good eating these foods and couldn't stop eating them. I ended up eating them more and more often until they were the only foods I ate. I tried to stop because I was worried about celiac disease but every time I tried to stop I went through withdraw and had to eat these foods again. People noticed and joked about this at work and I told them I was addicted. This was all before I ever heard of an opiate connection. I had no idea why this was happening and neither did my doctor. Many parents report that wheat and milk is all their autistic kids will eat because they are addicted to them.

You wrote one would expect shallow breathing. I had this problem for years. Doctor couldn't explain it. It went away after I went on the gfcf diet and now my breathing is normal.

anbuend wrote:
So... basically... if you take your theory logically, it doesn't make sense. Yes, some people are celiac etc. The vast majority of autistic/celiac people I know don't become more social after they stop eating gluten and casein


It's not my theory. A connection between opiates and autism was found in 1979 and dozens of researchers and studies have found there is a connection. You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with science. Also, the gluten problem in autism is unrelated to celiac disease.

anbuend wrote:
According to your theory, this is not possible for an autistic person, because I'd be too wrapped up in my supposed opiate-induced high to socialize with people... none of that theory makes sense, but way to insult a lot of autistic people.


I never wrote that opiates make it impossible to socialize. I also never wrote that this problem occurs in everyone with autism. Nor did I write that opiates cause every symptom of autism. I merely wrote that opiates is what allows some autistics to feel good being autistic and that it may explain why they don't think they want to be cured.

I really don't see how quoting the findings of scientific research insults autistic people. Here's a link to dozens of scientific studies (there's probably over 100) that have found a connection between opiates and autism - http://www.autismndi.com/news/display.a ... 0721150209



zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

24 Jan 2008, 2:06 pm

KimJ wrote:
zendell just loves finding environmental scapegoats for the "real" reason for autism and then presenting it as fact. He isn't a scientist and has stated that he doesn't always understand what he's reading, yet he'll quote it as Gospel anyways. I find most of theories insulting as they generally blame the "mother".
The fact is there a gazillion speculations out there and only a few known true, constant correlations with autism.


These responses really get old after awhile.
1. I'm not looking for a scapegoat
2. The "real" reason for autism isn't known
3. There's extensive scientific evidence that environmental factors are involved
4. I don't think I ever blamed anyone's mother.
5. If you think autism is genetic, then you are blaming the mother (her genes are involved)
6. What's wrong with being open-minded and considering all possible causes?
7. These aren't my theories.
8. I can't help it if science insults you.



Confused-Fish
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,129
Location: trapped in a jar

24 Jan 2008, 2:11 pm

despite the fact that i have very few friends, all my friends are true and trustworthy why would i want to be normal just for the sake of having a whole load of fake, mask wearing people too call friends aswell?