Top psychological cure: denial, grandiosity, NT denigration

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anbuend, Wow! What a post. Please preserve it on you blog. Best Wishes - Z.

Because it's not an either-or thing, it's not black and white.

Virtually everyone, including the people who write about the strengths autistic people have (the ones I quoted), are well aware of autistic people's weaknesses. The fact that they do in fact exist, and can be pretty extreme. I co-run a mailing list for autistic people dealing with daily living problems. We range from people needing constant (unusual) support by others, to people who can get by somewhat or entirely more "on our own" (in the traditional sense). And we're well aware of the weaknesses that come with being autistic because we live them every day.

The thing is that there are also positive things about being autistic. Some of them seem to some of us, to even be irrevocably tied to the negative parts, like they are the two sides of a coin. (An online friend of mine wrote about how if you view an amethyst from one end it looks purple and from another end it looks white. He used this to symbolize the fact that a single trait can be a strength or a deficit or both depending on how you look at it.)

And since they have been under-recognized, and we have been encouraged to focus only on our negative traits, a lot of us are interested in looking into the neutral and positive traits about autism. Additionally a lot of us are simply curious about what autism actually is, and want to view it accurately, and a large chunk of the research out there points to us (as a whole on average of course) consistently having specific cognitive strengths (such as the ones I quoted in my previous post). And some people view the strengths as things they achieved despite the odds or despite their weaknesses, while others view them as products of the same things that cause the weaknesses, and others view them as the things that were there first and result in all the weaknesses further down the line. (which is to say, our thoughts on the matter are not monolithic)

One thing I really can't speak to a lot is the elitism thing, because I'm not into that. I see people who do it, and I don't like it. I don't like being considered to be doing the same thing they are doing, just because both of us happen to claim that autism isn't entirely a bad thing. I think elitism is inaccurate, also ethically not good, and potentially harmful. Elitism is when you consider one sort of person just by their nature better in value than the other because of their abilities or whatever, and then denigrate the abilities of the sort of person who is lower on the hierarchy as pointless, useless, worthless, etc. Elitism is more often practiced towards autistic people than the other way around, but the other way around does happen and it's not good.

I have guesses though. I suspect that if a person is considered inferior for a long time, and then they want to say they are not inferior, they can misinterpret "not inferior" as having to mean "superior" and then view themselves as superior. I also think that some people misinterpret totally non-elitist statements as elitist -- such as that autistic people have strengths that are specific to autism, or that autistic people are not inferior. Some people take any mention of our strengths as meaning we are asserting superiority, and any mention of our non-inferiority as same. I'm more into equality personally, although I think sometimes people get into elitism before they settle into something more nuanced/ethical like equality.

But all that on elitism is only a guess.

I don't think that my strengths negate my weaknesses though. I did not seek diagnosis, I was being seen for suicidal depression when I was diagnosed. I have some pretty extreme weaknesses because of being autistic, and others because of being both autistic and in certain circumstances. But I also have strengths, and I don't think I should have to wait to talk about them or view them as something I like until all my other abilities reach some particular standard of perfection I doubt I'll ever meet. Strengths and weaknesses coexist in every person, in different proportions and in different places. Most people enjoy their strong areas whether they think about it or not (as well as enjoying challenges in our not-quite-as-strong areas), and I don't think it's wrong to do so just because one also has weak areas that are tied to the strong ones. Having good points to something doesn't mean claiming "no issues", and the vast majority of the earlier-in-origin autistic self-advocacy movement knows that very well because all of us have serious issues functioning in typical ways in at least some areas (I don't know whether this is true of some of the later parts or not, so I can't speak to that, but from what I've seen those of us noticing our strengths can be people who function very well in standard society with little extra support, as well as those of us who need a lot of extra support).

thank you anbuend for your post. there is nothing at all wrong with people saying they have strengths as a result of AS, i dont know for sure wether or not those strengths truly are caused by AS although i can see how having hyperfocus and an obsessive nature can easily cause a person to become an expert in a complicated subject which many others may have difficulty with , many aspies obsessions are so narrow (specialized ) i wonder if so called normal people would enjoy work like that , im not saying they do or they dont just that i wonder how many people who work on very specialized subjects are aspie , diagnosed or not.

you say these people are well aware of the weaknesses, but as a reader here i see many that dont appear to be so aware , the people who say autism isnt a disability merely a difference. I am really having trouble in understanding this view.

i wasnt diagnosed until last year, im 34 ive gone through my life just thinking nobody liked me and that somehow i have a bad personality , things that please other people dont have the same effect on me , truthfully i dont find pleasure in much although believe me i do long for it , i want to be excited by something who wouldnt. I have no idea if this is related to AS or is just a personality defect. i ended up at the psychiatrist because i had a serious meltdown which resulted in me being suicidal hallucinating and finally going catatonic for a shortwhile. i had no idea that i had aspergers. ive suffered from anxiety and depression for decades and ended up with agrophobia because leaving the house made me so very ill . i now know this is actually a result of sensory problems , probably as a result of aspergers.
i disagree that the good points of aspergers have been under recognised, the first thing i said to my doctor when he said i had aspergers was that it was impossible because i dont have any special talent for music , art or mathematics and my memory is very poor. all i knew about aspergers was that they had all these special talents the like of which the rest of us could just dream of.
i believed i lacked the neccersary passion to have aspergers , i think passion should replace the word obsession , obsession sounds negative passion sound desirable .

yes i hate the elitism , im a better more acomplished aspie than you , i still dont understand the im aspie but theres nothing wrong with me part , are there people who just have social deficits and no sensory issues or meltdowns ? is it those people who dont see autism as disabling . ive never had freinds and i cant do eye contact, i hide behind my big black sunglasses i never considered disabling just a result again of a poor temperement , my inability to socialise or speak to people was just that no name just me. it has held me back in many ways but again thats down to me not other people i never expected anyone to make allowances for it.

i guess its just me , at this time im finding ways to enable me to be able to cope better with life in all its aspects , and i am talking basic stuff like paying bills , getting a job, going into a shop nothing fancy . and then i come here and i read how great it is to be aspie and how all these people do so well in there lives and i dont fit in here either . its depressing . i see a few posters who have similar issues as myself and then the rest shouting them down that its not a disability or even an imparement just a difference. just to clarify i used the term autism to include aspergers syndrome did you ? im never quite sure what is the correct protocol , i feel when i say aspergers im supposed to be well accomplished and i do feel small. when i say autism i know it includes aspergers but less assumtions are made about my abilities ( i hope).

elan's opinion is wrong

Someone told me that Elan had been banned. I hardly think it's moral to make such sweeping and intellectually dishonest statements. He is not here to defend himself, being banned.

If he isn't banned, then I acknowledge that I'm wrong, though to the best of my knowledge, Elan was banned.

You simply ignored what Elan had to say and blanked it all as being wrong without giving any real thought to the matter. You didn't say why Elan is wrong, and for you to simply state that Elan is, is amoral and dishonest. Why is he wrong? You didn't say. You saying that he is wrong does not make him wrong, any more than sying he's right makes him right. Without reasoning, it's simply a knee-jrk reaction, with no more thought than disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. Please, deign to explain why next time, rather than simply grabbing a paintbrush, a bucket of tar, and a sack of feathers.

Is anyone who engages in serious, and forewarned to be controversial, topics to be banned if they don't repeat tired lines about being fine the way we are? I'm an Aspie, just like anyone else on this forum, and I find it sickening that Aspies are being banned simply for not conforming to the majority, and trying to engage in serious discussions of controversial natures.

Banned users have the 'banned' label thing under their name,but elan_i hasn't got one,whether it happens with all banned users dont know.
if he cant get on wp because it says he has been banned,it could be ip getting matched with a banned ip.

Can't see why he would be banned for his threads,especially if he wasn't given warning at least.

It is trolling because many people here do not like it when others have a difference in opinion.

This is true when one doesn't follow the mainstream here by applauding themselves for being autistic.

KingdomOfRats, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I wonder why I got a PM from someone about that? Maybe it's their IP that's banned, but not their account... That'd be subtle, and pretty much impossible to check.

Good points, good points. Thanks for clarifying things.

Oscuria, you make a solid point, since the first person to call troll was just someone who disagreed, who couldn't actually argue, but instead called troll rather than try. That was in an even earlier thread than this... And Elan was called a member of the KKK, and all kinds of disgusting trash, in a blatant personal attack. They didn't even try to understand what Elan was saying, but just called him names until the thread was locked. At least, I think it was locked...

We do ban people who sign up and immediately make a bunch of posts calling aspies names, which is what this individual did. I am not surprised he or she received a poor response in return. This person had multiple accounts, which were all used for the same purpose. No warnings are needed when such a pattern of behavior is observed.

I think everyone should be allowed to post how they feel. Some like being autistic, some don't. Some get offended at Elan's post. I get offended at the anti-cure posts just as much as people with AIDS would get offended if someone opposed a cure for AIDS for whatever reason.

Unfortunately, I don't think independent thinking is valued here. It seems like we are all supposed to conform to the majority view that autism is wonderful or risk getting banned.

I somehow think people can do better at "independent thinking" than creating multiple user accounts to call people names and harass other members with, personally.

Besides, think about it: If it were merely about opinions, then why aren't you and the pretty substantial number of other people here who either hate being autistic or think autism ought to be cured, banned as well? You've been stating your opinions pretty freely for awhile now, and while many people have had strong objections to them, nobody's banned you.

So it's really not about how persecuted your particular views are or are not (and I still find it weird that you come up with such a viewpoint when most of the world in general agrees with you, it's like Christians claiming that Christianity is constantly under attack in America, a country who's never even had a president of another faith background), there's clearly a lot more to what was going on here than that.

I kept my posts mild and deleted a few after posting to avoid getting banned. I agree with some of what Elan posted but one reason I avoided commenting was so I wouldn't get banned along with him. The main reason I avoided posting in his threads was because I don't want everyone here to hate me. I think he stated that people were in denial, grandiose, cowards, and paranoid because he was frustrated that some people here are so convinced that they won't listen to reason. I can understand both sides and like to hear all views. Even though I want to treat my negative symptoms, I can get an anti-cure attitude when other people in real life get inpatient and intolerant and want to cure some of the positive things about me.

I just realized something reading over this. I realize it doesn't apply to all, but MANY of those who talk about the down sides of Asperger's, who talk about being miserable, about lacking a "normal" life, often also mention they've been diagnosed or learned about Asperger's in the past couple of years. I'm comfortable with AS, I'm comfortable with myself, but I've also had 7 years to LEARN about it and get used to the idea. I've had that long to use what I've learned to acclimate better to the NT world. I've made a lot of improvements in my career in that time, and I think in large part because I learned about my triggers, learned how to avoid certain behaviors that were hamstringing me and learned to project to the NT's what they wanted. I'm wondering how many of us who are comfortable with having an ASD have known for a longer period of time.

Wanting to be healthy is not the same thing as wanting a cure for autism.

I agree with AspieDave, I think the OP was a confused kid. If we can't help him here where will he get help.

Some people (most of them are young middleclass white males) think that autism is depriving them of their birthright; an easy life without struggle. I think those very people may be the ones who benefit most from this forum where people who struggle with autism from a wide variety of perspectives support and learn from each other.

Aspie Dave, I think you've got it there; I've had nearly eight years to come to terms with being autistic. When I was first diagnosed I felt like all the traits I had that had lead to some high acheiving [like aiming for 100% in exams] had been pathologized and used to define me as "sick" "disabled" or "impared"

Anbuend - a stunning post, brilliantly argued and very well referenced. This deserves to be a sticky.
thank you.