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Inventor
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18 Feb 2008, 12:30 am

Spiral153 wrote:
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20,000 years ago Scandinavia, Germany, Denmark, the British Isles down to London, were covered in three miles of ice. That continued till 10,000 years ago. So they all lived somewhere before.

15,000 years ago all lived on the Eurasian Steppe, some went East into the Americas, some West into Europe.

There were people already living in parts of southwestern Europe more than 15,000 years ago. Prehistoric cave paintings in Spain and France attest to that.

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A lot of copper was mined around the Great Lakes. There is no trace of it in the Americas. The time coincides with the European Bronze Age, when it suddenly became common, but there is no source of copper in Europe. Mixed with Tin from Wales, lead from Port of Gaul, the Atlantians held a monopoly, on Oracalium. It is the Greek word, Ora, golden, Calium, copper, golden copper, brass.

Atlantians? As in, natives of Atlantis? WTF?
How much of what you wrote is based on actual historical facts, as opposed to speculation and folklore?


History based on Plato, and Strabo, both speak of the culture that the Atlantic is named after. The main problem is Atlantis sank beneath the waves, Plato placed it 13,000 years before his time. That fits with the ice melting, and the ocean rising 440 foot in a few thousand years.

The ocean was down 440 foot between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago. Below the ice was a different world, Siberia moved into Southern France, and the reindeer people of the Steppe, who painted the caves. Another people lived in Europe before the ice, they moved south.

Herds and humans shift with the climate, and Europe is well mapped going back 35,000 years, to the first cave artists, Chauvet Cave, in France. They were very good artists.

The European homeland seems to be the Kergan Steppe, North of the Black Sea. The Romans report that the Germans said they came from the East, around the year 100. Attila settled Hungary in 700, and the Turks are from Mongolia, and came in 1300. A drying of the Gobi grasslands made the Gobi desert, and the, Huns, Hunnan, as in the province of China, all moved West.

The Kipchak Huns settled in Poland, Estonia, Lituania, Kip means blond, they were from the Altai Mountains, in Siberia.

Climates change and people move. During the Little Ice Age. Starting about 900, the Vikings move south, for they could no longer support themselves, could not ripen crops, so they settled Nomandy, and in 1066 one William invaded England. It was not the first, for Ireland, Scotland, the Danegeld, had already been taken. He took the Roman part, London, and one effect of that was some k Welsh who left, went to America, and became the mandans. Light hair and eyes, and still spoke an understandable Welsh in 1800.

As for the Olmec heads, they are Basalt, brought a long distance, and it is black. Jaguars do not have large lips, round heads, and the Toltec come from out of nowhere, and build a high civilization. They brought with them metalworking, irrigation, weaving cloth, skills that do not develop in a generation.

Besides what we can track, there were cultures before that built great things, and vanished long ago.

Modern humans, us, are 125,000 years old, but did not do much till 35,000 years ago, then came a wave of art and technology, and it spread.

We are closely related, and have a lot of history, 1000 generations post art and technology. The major writers in Cultural Anthropology, and art history, think we have underestimated the past. Seven weaves of cloth are dated to 27,000 years ago, along with sculpture in the round, and painting was at least 8,000 years old then. There is nothing primitive about our ancestors.

12,000 years ago the city of Catal Huyuk was built, in Turkey, Anatilia, 8 to 10,000 people lived there, until 8,000 years ago, when a drying came, changed the Sahara from grasslannd to desert, so they abandoned the city, and moved in mass to Salbury Plain, and built Stonehenge. This wes 5,000 years before Ur, Crete, Mycenia, Egypt, before any other organised group.

We have the genetics from both ends, it was the same people. We still do not know who built Baalbek, the pyrimids of the Sun and Moon in Mexico, and lots of other places. Nasca Lines? Cusco? Lake Titicaca? The Moche? We have written language going way back, but cannot translate it, for it is so old. Writing did not start in Sumer, it comes fully developed, with math. It came from somewhere.

My contention is autism comes with the art and technology line, which we can date to 35,000 years ago. It could go back much farther, as EvilKimEvil mentions, either way, it is in the genome of all people, of European or mixed European ancestory.

Troy was discovered from the writings of Plato. I think Mycenia also. So he was factual. Plato, Solon, the Egyptians, Strabo, speak of Alantes, as an actual place, and the source of culture, technology, and a knowledge of the gods.

The Egyptians said the sun rose where it sets, and set where it rises twice in their records, 15,000 years. The sea floor spreading at the Mid Atlantic Ridge shows two magnetic reversals during that time.

So the best of modern science is giving us a history as an intelligent people, who dosmesticated crops and animals starting 35,000 years ago. By 27,500 years ago they had herds, and were weaving cloth. Their art was powerful, when Dali saw it he said, we have learned nothing.

All through our history are dark ages, from a literate time, no one reads or writes for 800 years. Then we start over, thinking we invented it all. We are but one wave, and all waves crash.



Odin
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18 Feb 2008, 9:34 am

Plato's tale about Atlantis was just hearsay most likely stemming from folk memory of the Minoan Civilization and it's collapse.


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Irisrises
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18 Feb 2008, 9:35 am

Interesting how nobody pays attention to those people above who are actually in Scandinavia and who report that people there in general are no more autistic than elsewhere. Instead, Americans theorize about places they've never been.

I'm familiar with Scandinavia as well as other countries and people are the same. However, in northern Europe people have traditionally been socialized to keep their heads down whereas in the U.S. people are expected to assert and define themselves as individuals. But that's got nothing to do with autism.

Incidentally, about blue eyes, I read somewhere that all blue-eyed people are the result of the same single mutation x thousand years ago. I don't see how it could be true because as I recall blue-eyed populations exist not only in northern Europe but also in the regions of current Pakistan and Ethiopia, and they must have had their own mutations or else the populations wouldn't be so geographically distinct. But maybe for each one of those locations, someone was born with blue eyes and was considered such a godgiven totem that they produced enormous amounts of offspring with different partners (they must have, because unless the offspring mated, the gene wouldn't have been carried forward, since it's recessive).



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18 Feb 2008, 10:49 am

Again, Inventor, I have actually seen the Olmec heads, in person, and they are not black (see below). Basalt is found on the mountains in Mexico, so how is that relevant to anything? (perhaps you're confusing basalt with obsidian, which is almost black and is also found in Mexico?) The Toltecs (and there is debate as to whether they were a single people, etc since most of what is known about them is from Aztec chronicles that can't be verified independently) didn't come out of nowhere there were older civlisations in the region, including the (much older) Olmecs.
I find it revealing that people that go on about how the ancient monuments of places like Mexico, Egypt prove that they were in contact with the ancient Greeks, or the Atlanteans (a myth of Greek origin), or aliens, are usually white Westerners - it's like saying 'These barbarians could not possibly have built these things on their own, either Europeans or peoples connected with Europe or aliens must have taught them how it's done.'
Yes, there are Greek texts about the Atlantis - there are also Greek texts about the Minotaur, multi-headed monsters, etc. If your 'evidence' for the existence of an entire continent is hearsay Plato wrote down and 'facts' that are blatantly false like what you said about copper, you're building castles in the air.
"Siberia moved into Southern France"? No comments.

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18 Feb 2008, 11:33 am

To correct myself, it was Homer, old before being written down, who lead directly to the discovery of Troy.

Mycenia and Crete were destroyed 1,500 years before Plato, When Mount Thera on the Isle of Santarini blew up, ten times larger than Krakatoa, in 1543 BC. Earthquakes, tidal waves, and six foot of ash covering Syria and Anatolia.

This was current history to the Egyptians, who told Solon about Atlantis, who Plato quotes. The period of Mount Thera is well recorded in Egypt as the coming of the sea people, Crete and Mycenia, when their home islands were destroyed, Atlantis is another much older story.

It is a major and important story, when the gods came to Egypt, from the west, 13,000 years before.

Plato seems to have known nothing of Mount Thera, for the Greeks we know, Dorians, came about 1,000 years later, and learned of the gods from the Egyptians.

Plato does embelish, and turns it into a morality lesson, Atlantis being destroyed for becoming corrupt. He did put moral behavior, and good goverment, before factual history.

His sources include Herodotus, more of a tour guide than historian, but a fully modern mind, reporting stories as he heard them. He only wrote down what was being told, like Homer reciting the war between Mycenia and Troy, a thousand years before his time.

They most likely did know of Mount Thera, but it was a punishment from the gods, that fell on the winner of the Troy War, and the acts of the gods are not for mortals to question.

Our ability to think and speak goes back 35,000 years. Most of human advance we owe to people from long ago, who domesticated crops and animals, wove cloth, made pottery, long before the age of metals. Their art and technology made our world.

Autism played a large part in that development. I see it as a major cause of the rise of art and technology, which dates it to before two ice ages ago.

Scandinavians are the conserative land owners who stayed home, adventurerous autistics went a Vikings. Their boats were a very high technology. Their navigation and weapons, were superior. Technology seeks new places, new answers, thinking outside the box, and that is autism.

Technology attracts, and in Silicone Valley, Redmond, Round Rock, it has attracted autistics.

Ibn Khaldun said in 1300 that technology seeks freedom, and will move to avoid taxation and opression.

Look at the percentage of autistics in the US, Australia, New Zealand, recently settled places. It may be a language problem, but more in England than in Europe. Autistics seem to lead in going somewhere new to do something new.

It is taken as a given here that an Austistic Colony would have a high technology. The desire to found one is a regular thread.

It seems were are the mental frontier, and always have been. What all of my ancestors have in common is abandoning the place they were born, and seeking a new life on the frontier.



pbcoll
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18 Feb 2008, 1:46 pm

Inventor wrote:
Plato does embelish, and turns it into a morality lesson, Atlantis being destroyed for becoming corrupt. He did put moral behavior, and good goverment, before factual history.

His sources include Herodotus, more of a tour guide than historian, but a fully modern mind, reporting stories as he heard them. He only wrote down what was being told...


By your own admission, your source is unreliable. Has it occurred t you that if a continent had been covered by rising sea levels, submarines would've come across it decades ago?

Quote:
Autism played a large part in that development. I see it as a major cause of the rise of art and technology, which dates it to before two ice ages ago.


Evidence?

Quote:
Scandinavians are the conserative land owners who stayed home, adventurerous autistics went a Vikings.


Evidence?

Quote:
Technology seeks new places, new answers, thinking outside the box, and that is autism.


Not necessarily. Schrodinger was a very radical outside-the-box thinker (too radical for Einstein, for example), and he wasn't autistic. Likewise Richard Feynman, David Hume, etc. And there are plenty of autistics desperate to be 'normal.' This whole autism-is-Scandinavian (with no evidence whatsoever) and autism-drives-all-progress business makes me think of swastikas...

Quote:
Look at the percentage of autistics in the US, Australia, New Zealand, recently settled places. It may be a language problem, but more in England than in Europe. Autistics seem to lead in going somewhere new to do something new.


Do you have any evidence that different rates of diagnosed autism reflect anything other than the different medical systems in place, and different level of societal awareness of autism? I'm sure the diagnosed incidence of epilepsy is lower in Somalia or Afghanistan than it is in Sweden, but that doesn't mean the real incidence of epilepsy is any different.

Quote:
It is taken as a given here that an Austistic Colony would have a high technology.


Did the Japanese somehow mutate en masse to become more autistic after WWII or during the Meiji period, when they became technologically advanced? Did the English during the Industrial Revolution (Europe was not particularly technologically advanced compared to the rest of the world before that)?

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What all of my ancestors have in common is abandoning the place they were born, and seeking a new life on the frontier.


Unless you're of pure Ethiopian descent, everybody's ancestors have in common that they sought a new life somewhere other than their place of origin at some point.

That you don't answer the many refutations of your 'evidence' speaks volumes.


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18 Feb 2008, 3:30 pm

I'm 5/8ths Swede, starkly light golden hair that barbers stop me and ask to take for wigs, and nearly transparent skin so I'm like the invisible man used to study veins. So I guess I fit the OP's picture.

There was an interesting article to me about neanderthal interbreeding that could be interpreted in this context. It seemed well researched, but mostly my interest in it had to do with the description of hypothesized language processing in the article -- the description nailed, almost word for word, a description I'd given to others about the way I process it. So that's why I remember the article.

Later: Becky just told me that the article has been posted here a number of times! Sheesh. Shows how far behind the times I am. If someone remembers the link Becky is talking about, I'd like to see if it is the same one I'd seen before. She thinks it is, but I'm not sure.

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18 Feb 2008, 5:00 pm

This is an interesting theory,but I'm always
wary of stereotypes,whether it's in relation
to nationalities or to Asperger's itself.
The suggestion that Swedes especially are 'socially awkward' is difficult for me to believe.From what I know of Sweden there is a lot of emphasis put on conformity in social behaviour.Individualism and non-conformity are not things that are prevalent.To me this seems like a society that is more in line with NT than AS. Of course,it could also be
argued that a lot of us with AS would like
to 'conform' with society,so in that respect maybe there's a link.


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18 Feb 2008, 7:22 pm

Irisrises wrote:
Interesting how nobody pays attention to those people above who are actually in Scandinavia and who report that people there in general are no more autistic than elsewhere. Instead, Americans theorize about places they've never been.

I'm familiar with Scandinavia as well as other countries and people are the same. However, in northern Europe people have traditionally been socialized to keep their heads down whereas in the U.S. people are expected to assert and define themselves as individuals. But that's got nothing to do with autism.


Well, you ARE right there. Until very recently, germanic, and scandinavian ,people were aloof, quiet, etc... out of respect and class. Surprisingly, the last few decades have marked a big move towards being like the US.

Irisrises wrote:
Incidentally, about blue eyes, I read somewhere that all blue-eyed people are the result of the same single mutation x thousand years ago. I don't see how it could be true because as I recall blue-eyed populations exist not only in northern Europe but also in the regions of current Pakistan and Ethiopia, and they must have had their own mutations or else the populations wouldn't be so geographically distinct. But maybe for each one of those locations, someone was born with blue eyes and was considered such a godgiven totem that they produced enormous amounts of offspring with different partners (they must have, because unless the offspring mated, the gene wouldn't have been carried forward, since it's recessive).


Actually, even a RECESSIVE trait can spread wildly even if not expressed. And they used to have larger families.



AndreT
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06 Apr 2009, 3:07 pm

A connection between autism and Scandinavians may be the usefullness of having light skin and ability to derive nourishment from dairy products as an adult. These are neotenizing features whereby the features of an infant are carried forward into the adult (along with blue eyes and blonde hair). There also studies to suggest that the scandinavians have a predisposition toward left handedness, another feature of neoteny or maturational delay.



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06 Apr 2009, 3:29 pm

Margrethe wrote:
As a Norwegian... I've met a lot of Scandinavians who aren't socially awkward.

That's a huge generalization, IMO.
most sosial places u find here is bars :lol:


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06 Apr 2009, 4:06 pm

Any credibility this idea had immediately went out the window when I read that the OP thinks Finns are Scandinavians.



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06 Apr 2009, 4:26 pm

As a budding ethnographer... I find the idea to be silly and lacking in evidence. Not to mention, as someone who is of largely native American, Jewish, and Anglo-saxon bloodlines, this would make me an unlikely aspie.



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06 Apr 2009, 5:11 pm

I always knew that autism was Scandinavian/Germanic. Look at any autistic person and you'll see the physical Scandinavian/Germanic traits. Once I saw a picture of a bunch of autistic people in a group home or something and they all looked like relatives... they all looked alike. They were all blond, blue-eyed, pale, husky, and generally Scandinavian-looking.



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06 Apr 2009, 5:17 pm

alex wrote:
that's an interesting theory but what about the people with asperger's who have absolutely no scandinavian ancestors?


Like me. Ashkenzik down to my tonails. Strictly eastern European and Near East. Not a blue eye or blond hair in my family line.

ruveyn



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06 Apr 2009, 5:34 pm

Aren't there Asians with autism? I don't think it can be confined to one race or ethnic group. Seems to occur the world over.