Page 1 of 2 [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Greentea
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,745
Location: Middle East

02 Dec 2008, 1:23 am

This may apply mostly to older Aspies like me, those who lived a life of not knowing what was wrong with us, blaming ourselves for our social "insensitivity" and being blamed by others all the time for it too.

A couple years ago I discovered on the web that what I have is an ASD. Ever since I've been on a high, the huge blame I lived under all my life lifted and it felt amazingly good. A new life. I felt like I'd been born in prison and was suddenly free.

Recently, though, I've started feeling pain instead. The pain of knowing that I was born with a condition that alienates people, makes them hate me, fire me, reject me, distance from me, try to use and abuse me, abandon me. Because the toughest trait of this condition is lack of Theory of Mind (as I define it: not having an intuitive general knowledge of what people in general are like, what they usually want, what their motivations are, what they're seeking, etc.)

I've gathered a certain extent of generalized knowledge about people during half a century, of course, but it's never enough. And the social blunders aren't less, unfortunately, because my Theory of Mind is always too little for what the circumstances require.

I now sit here wondering...how does one live, knowing beforehand that one is inevitably going to alienate that new date, that new boss, those new co-workers, that new doctor, those new neighbors ???


_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur.


NocturnalQuilter
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2008
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 937

02 Dec 2008, 2:03 am

'tea, I'm in the same situation as you: I just turned forty in the same year I got my diagnosis.
Yes, I was relieved. Finally there was a reason for all those lost years, lost opportunities, lost life.
Then the relief was replaced by grief. Grief for everything that was lost. As though a part of me died and I only just realized it.
I think I may still be grieving. I think back on all those times when I could've or should've but didn't and couldn't understand why.

Forty is well past the average males' life expectency so I feel as though I'm so far behind the eight-ball (so to speak) that I'll never catch up or make sense of all the loss.

But I try very hard not to dwell on all that- as best I can. Instead, I try to remember all the blessings I live with here and now; that all the heartache, misunderstandings and rejection. I know it feels as if all of that can never be made right. I'm not even sure myself.

I just hope.



Magliabechi
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 284
Location: Britain

02 Dec 2008, 2:08 am

Greentea wrote:
I now sit here wondering...how does one live, knowing beforehand that one is inevitably going to alienate that new date, that new boss, those new co-workers, that new doctor, those new neighbors ?


You don't, Greentea. Your problem is not AS- it's defeatism.

Magliabechi.



Akajohnnyx
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 139
Location: Michigan

02 Dec 2008, 2:20 am

NocturnalQuilter wrote:
Forty is well past the average males' life expectency so I feel as though I'm so far behind the eight-ball (so to speak) that I'll never catch up or make sense of all the loss.


I wouldn't say that. At 40, you're most likely halfway or 2/3 at the very least through your life. As long as you're still alive, there's still time.


_________________
The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.


outlier
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,429

02 Dec 2008, 2:54 am

I try to stave off depression by not contemplating the future. I also treat the situation as a variant of the human condition (in that all human existence involves inevitable suffering and death), so just accept it. Such issues, however, do intrude on the present state of mind (the reason I can't sleep right now). Not surprising, as there isn't support for ASCs where I live and no sign this is changing. Having more insight into a situation when there is only so much you can do to control it is stressful.

Studying all kinds of subjects keeps me going and absorbed by the present. Discovering new things about my condition is another thing (interesting things like enhanced visual acuity in ASCs, how I score well above norms, and a couple of non-ASC I know score in the normal range).



animal
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 282
Location: Vic.

02 Dec 2008, 3:54 am

To be honest, those things have never really bothered me. I didn't even consider the effect my lack of ToM would have on other people, or whether or not other people might perceive me negatively because of it. I guess those things just don't bother me.



Ambivalence
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,613
Location: Peterlee (for Industry)

02 Dec 2008, 8:13 am

My way of dealing with it is to accept that until someone has seen me at my worst, which is going to happen if they're around me for any length of time, I consider them an acquaintance. If they see me behaving "strangely" - more "strangely" than usual! and accept that - some people do, many/most just mark my card as "don't have any more to do with this guy than strictly necessary", fair enough -, then they're my friend. I don't think it's inevitable that you will be alienated from everyone - just that the people who accept you are valuable and (maybe) rare.

But then again I guess I'm very fortunate to have an understanding boss and colleagues.


_________________
No one has gone missing or died.

The year is still young.


Kaleido
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,615

02 Dec 2008, 8:37 am

Its a whole process Green tea.

Components comprising of relief, grief, anger, emptiness, disappointment etc etc. In any order, some or all.



SMARTIE
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 90
Location: Sitting in the Shadows

02 Dec 2008, 8:50 am

I must admit I have been through the same process, elation at being diagnosed but then regret & depression that if I had been diagnosed earlier my life would have been better. However I have since realised that I am what I am because of these life experiences and my AS and I now try and live my life as best I can.

I am also lucky enough to have both a great work environment and a close circle of family and friends who accept me for who I am. Its taken a lot of work to get here but its well worth it.

Dont give up on life or yourself :wink:


_________________
Is it better to let people assume you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt??


Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

02 Dec 2008, 8:52 am

How in the WORLD can you know it's inevitable? There are plenty of people out there who'll accept us. Saying something stupid doesn't inevitably ruin a friendship, nor a date.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


ManErg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2006
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,090
Location: No Mans Land

02 Dec 2008, 9:28 am

Hi Greentea,

Similar here too, I'm afraid. I was diagnosed about 2 years ago and was elated for many months. My life made sense at last.

It lasted about a year before the downturn started. A very mixed up mess of mourning a miserable childhood and youth that would be so much better if I'd been going through it now that AS is recognised. Anger towards the many incidents of abuse I'd received that now appear unfair and unjustified. Anger towards myself for accepting all the insults and taking them in and believing myself as 'sub human' and not worthy of the respect that 'proper' people deserve. It seems never ending.

And then there's the very real prospect of a future where many of the options available to NT's, which is society as a whole, aren't real options for us.

The way I see it is that I cannot change the past. But at least now I can use the knowledge of diagnosis to avoid pitfalls in the future. However, to me the key is being aware of my limitations. Before, I would have felt inferior for not being able to take a job that involves extensive human contact, for example. I have even forced myself to do this kind of thing, assuming that I would "learn social skills". In reality, I would just fail and get miserable. Now I don't have to even try this. I have a right to stay within my limitations and only push boundaries when I choose. Which may not be today..or never, if I don't feel like it. No amount of running will make a one legged man grow another leg.

Socially, I only feel a faint sadness that I can not be friends with most people. This used to be far worse, now I try to focus what little social needs I have on those who I feel at ease with. It may only be 1 in every 20 or 30 people, but that's better than frequently being stuck in social situations with people who my very presence was unnerving (I'm sure we've all been there). That was my social life for many years - resulting in continual self-criticism and unhappiness for struggling to get along with 'normal' people.

The past is gone, the hope I have is to make sure the future is not a repeat of the past.

Callista wrote:
How in the WORLD can you know it's inevitable?

I'm pretty sure Greentea didn't when she was 25, either. You're not comparing like with like. We are the people who lived for 40+ years with no idea about AS. With no support because our only problem was that we "couldn't be bothered to make the small effort required to fit in" (and that's what friends would say to me, the level of contempt would be even higher from those who disliked me).

If your were diagnosed before 25, or 20, you know that there are others like you. Those diagnosed over 30 or 40 will have spent their entire childhoods, teens and beyond not just believing themselves to be alone, but truly being alone.

Callista wrote:
Saying something stupid doesn't inevitably ruin a friendship, nor a date.


Can't disagree with that. Saying something 'stupid' isn't the problem, though. NT's talk stupid all the time and love it! 8) It's the knowledge that with many people 'whatever' I say will cause them to dislike me. The flow of conversation just isn't what (I assume) the typical NT expects and they will feel uncomfortable in your presence whatever you say.


_________________
Circular logic is correct because it is.


TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

02 Dec 2008, 9:48 am

Greentea wrote:
Because the toughest trait of this condition is lack of Theory of Mind (as I define it: not having an intuitive general knowledge of what people in general are like, what they usually want, what their motivations are, what they're seeking, etc.)


Positive side: if you don't have a ToM and you know that you don't have, you are less prone to be influeced by predefined ideas. E.g., when meeting a new person, you only will make assumptions about his wants, motivations, etc. after really know what he wants, instead of making assumptions using an imaginary "people in general" (what I wrote is a bit confuse, but I expect that you will understand me).

Btw, I have much doubt about all this talk about "theory of mind" - I suspect that everybody ("autistic" or "NT") "automatically" assumes that everybody is like "him", and the big difference is only that the "statistically normal" people errors less because there are indeed many people "like him".



melissa17b
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 420
Location: A long way from home, wherever home is

02 Dec 2008, 10:07 am

TPE2 wrote:
... Btw, I have much doubt about all this talk about "theory of mind" - I suspect that everybody ("autistic" or "NT") "automatically" assumes that everybody is like "him", and the big difference is only that the "statistically normal" people errors less because there are indeed many people "like him".


For as long as I could remember, going back when the term "Asperger's Syndrome" didn't exist, it was abundantly clear that most people were not "like me". They did strange things, such as making fun of and beating up certain other people, 5 or 10 against 1, without any provocation whatsoever. They has inexplicable interests and preoccupations that they caught from one another like a virus. What they couldn't live without one day was completely uninteresting and discarded a short time later. Only a very few of us didn't fit among them.

When you grow up like that, as many of us do, you do not assume that everyone else is "like you". You know all too well that you are different, even if you have no clue how or why. All that changes is that some of us eventually come to understand after many painful years that whilst we may be different, we are not inferior.



Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

02 Dec 2008, 10:21 am

OK, you guys have a point. I was 20 at diagnosis (well, technically 11, but Mom never told me nor really believed it herself). By that time I had already been hospitalized for depression, and thought myself to be rather a repulsive individual... Social interaction wasn't what did it for me, but the inability to control the meltdowns I thought were childish tantrums. I suppose if I had thought that for forty years... but then, I probably wouldn't have had forty; I wouldn't have lived that long. Oddly enough, after diagnosis, the problems I had with meltdowns became much better because I finally knew what caused them. I think social problems might be similar; if you'd been trying to brute-force social interaction all your life, you might have an easier time once you knew the whys and hows of your differences.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


Wedge
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 984
Location: Rendezvous Point

02 Dec 2008, 11:52 am

Greentea wrote:
Recently, though, I've started feeling pain instead. The pain of knowing that I was born with a condition that alienates people, makes them hate me, fire me, reject me, distance from me, try to use and abuse me, abandon me. Because the toughest trait of this condition is lack of Theory of Mind (as I define it: not having an intuitive general knowledge of what people in general are like, what they usually want, what their motivations are, what they're seeking, etc.)

.........
I now sit here wondering...how does one live, knowing beforehand that one is inevitably going to alienate that new date, that new boss, those new co-workers, that new doctor, those new neighbors ???


Regarding the theory of the mind. Just cause you lack a teory of mind does not mean that you can´t have relationships with other people, it only makes that harder. People with AS have difficulties to grasp the " general knowledge of what people in general are like, what they usually want, what their motivations are, what they're seeking" for various reasons, mainly cause the lack of eye contact, problems related to sensory integration and processing sensory input, and due to hypersensitivity. But that does not mean that people with AS can´t establish relatioships with other people. For instance, if you have problems with TOM have you ever considered instead of trying to figure out other people motivations and thoughts are, asking them directly what they are meaning, what they are thinking etc???? That is a good way to with your cope with your lack of theory of mind. Futhermore, you can tell your date you have some problems with communication (if you´re close to her) and ask her to help you out by speaking directly what she is feeling, what she likes etc....
I recomend you to buy a book on the subject and start working out those problems.



Kaleido
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,615

02 Dec 2008, 12:06 pm

Wedge wrote:
and ask her to help you out by speaking directly what she is feeling, what she likes etc....
I recomend you to buy a book on the subject and start working out those problems.

Excellent idea.

I do this with a friend of mine. He knows I have an ASD and when I feel confused, I tell him I feel confused and ask what he means specifically, often offering what I think he means as a starting point. I am often wrong but that helps him tell me what the real meaning is.