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Shiggily
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06 Dec 2008, 9:55 pm

pandd wrote:
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I was not arguing against the tautological argument X is X and not X is not X. I am arguing against your definition of what constitutes X.

It's not my definition. If the definition is your concern, this might be something more profitably argued about with the medical establishment, because I have no influence whatsoever on what the definition is.
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What do you consider traits and symptoms. My literal interpretation of the original posters remarks was simulated Asberger's means

I consider 'traits' to be those things which by definition of 'Asperger's Syndrome' distinguish the referent of 'Asperger's Syndrome' from all things 'not-Asperger's Syndrome'.

My definition of 'all the traits' is all traits that distinguish something from the things it is not. It is not 'appears to some observer at some point to have some of those traits or the potential to have all of those traits'. My definition of 'all the traits' is 'all the traits'.
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"to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of"

Would probably entail having some of (or appearing to) have some of the traits, which is distinct from all the traits.
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in which someone could appear to have the basic characteristics of Asberger's but those characteristics could be attributed to a combination of other issues.

Which possibility I distinctly described as plausible in my earlier posts.
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The telling clue would be in the fundamental way the person thinks and reasons which is internal and unless expressed outwardly would not indicate to a person that they are different from an AS person.

The reason I say yes is because I correlate the question as being similar to the question are we living in a simulated reality. Or could you simulate a reality convincingly enough that a person such as yourself, would look at it and say... since it has all the characteristics of reality... it must be reality"

None of which requires everyone else interpret the question to ask something it does not explicitly say. I cannot see the point in arguing your 'yes' to someone who is saying 'no' to an entirely different question. Entirely different questions often have different answers.

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http://www.simulation-argument.com/

unless I misunderstood the original poster's remark. Which is definitely possible.

So unless we define AS as a condition with symptoms or the existence of symptoms, then the argument goes nowhere.

So is X just X or can X be approximated by some combination of V, Y, and Z close enough to fool the vast majority of people and not actually be X?

X is just X. V, Y Z might be mistaken for X by some observer at some point. For instance a monarch-butterfly might be mistaken for some other thing, but the reason it is a mistake is because the monarch, even it if appears to some observer at some point to be some other thing, actually does have all the traits of monarchs, and it is the only kind of thing that does have all the traits of a monarch.


I see what you are saying.



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06 Dec 2008, 11:54 pm

Eggman wrote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


Does it matter?


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Eggman
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07 Dec 2008, 2:49 am

pandd wrote:
The point is still that you cannot have all the traits of X and not be X, it's tautological.

That does not mean that no mistakes are made when trying to assess whether all the traits of X are present. If you are asking to what extent non-autistic persons might appear autistic for some period of time, that is an entirely different question, and an important distinction in the particular instance.

I do not know to what extent someone might appear to have an ASD when in fact they do not (ie how common, how long and under what circumstances is someone likely to appear to have the traits of an ASD). Timing is important in reviewing the accuracy of early-age diagnosis (so perhaps more studies and information will be available about this in the future) because of the longitudinal nature of ASDs, and of course the expertise of the diagnostician/s is always a factor, and no doubt other things can further complicate assessment. But it would be consistent with other conditions if it were misdiagnosed either positively or negatively at least some of the time.

The traits of AS include a sufficient level of impairment in particular core species-competencies, occurring together in a triad, that is developmental in nature (onset during early child-hood development) and life-long in duration. This is a class-wide trait of AS; the meaning of AS is such that anyone who does not have this trait, does not have AS. Anyone who does have the trait (the triad of specific impairments, development in nature and of life-long duration), is autistic and has an ASD.


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irishwhistle
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07 Dec 2008, 5:45 am

What with my considerable skepticism about the qualifications of the average behavioral diagnostician, I tend to assume that there's no real syndromes but merely a list of traits that sometimes apply, hence the use of the term "spectrum" to cover their incompetent and muddled heinies. My little son and I share many qualities that make us fit the description. I have always had more, I think, but he was diagnosed (by the people at school, for what that's worth) when I was sure it was ADHD. With the traits they indicated, I could see that, autistic or not, he was struggling with problems that people with AS have and therefore it made sense to provide the same therapies to help him socialize, whether his problems are innate or merely from being raised by a woman who doesn't socialize, period.

Many members of my family have had problems, too. I think we're just like that. But if the methods work, they'll work no matter why you are the way you are, usually.


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07 Dec 2008, 6:47 am

Well yes, it is possible to have all the traits of Aspergers and not have the syndrome. For example all of these things could have happened to you, creating the appearance of Asperger:

(1) The reason you have a communications disorder is that your semantic-pragmatic functioning was disrupted as you grew up in a land where the semantics and pragmatics of language are so different than ours that you are functionally impaired in trying to learn another language.

(2) You had some kind of scarlet fever when you were a kid, creating a mild polio like neurological dysfunction that makes you clumsy.

(3) Your parents and friends also beat and belittled you, so that you never developed a functional personality or learned how to negotiate social situations.

(4) You have a bad temper and are disorganized, so that you have the functional personality traits of someone who has ADD and who has meltdowns.

(5) You developed a pathological pattern of "special interests" because you just never had anything else to do and are OCD.

and so on...

But as someone earlier said, the etiological pathways being common means that these things stem from the same neurological conditions, not be an accident of different developmental causes.

So your symptoms could be the result of many causes conspiring together to make you appear Asperger. But you would know that on some level, because you would have had the experiences that caused each of those symptoms to develop in you.

If these things all developed due to something other than a neurological cause, you would have the memory of the significant experiences causing you to develop these symptoms. You would remember that you are learning a language that is off your map, you would know you had the scarlet fever, you would remember being socially abused, you would remember not having anything to do that the other children had access to.



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07 Dec 2008, 3:05 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


Does it matter?

well all things must be technially true and tgat is the point of this thread



makuranososhi
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07 Dec 2008, 4:26 pm

Eggman wrote:
Sarcastic_Name wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


Does it matter?

well all things must be technially true and tgat is the point of this thread


I have a headache - does that mean I have head trauma or a brain tumor? It is not solely symptoms, but their causes and concurrence which also have meaning. Feels like another baby+bath water discussion, however, seeking to diminish the reality of having AS.


M.


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07 Dec 2008, 7:01 pm

Diagnostic criteria topic

I suppose some people can fake symptoms and may fool some diagnosticians.

If someone if diagnosed with a syndrome or illness and wants a second opinion, then this is an option.

If someone is diagnosed and chooses to disregard it, then this is also possible.

There are choices in this world. Lots of them.


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07 Dec 2008, 7:25 pm

I usually think of people like that as "geeky NTs".



Eggman
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08 Dec 2008, 2:07 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Sarcastic_Name wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


Does it matter?

well all things must be technially true and tgat is the point of this thread


I have a headache - does that mean I have head trauma or a brain tumor? It is not solely symptoms, but their causes and concurrence which also have meaning. Feels like another baby+bath water discussion, however, seeking to diminish the reality of having AS.


M.


insnt that my point?



makuranososhi
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08 Dec 2008, 3:27 am

Quote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


It is possible to have aspects, to have a series of experiences and quirks that would be similar to AS. I don't think that one would simply be born with all the same symptoms without underlying cause, and most things I can think of that would exhibit similarly to spectrum are not necessarily resulting from, apparent or existing at the time of birth. It is the concurrence, intensity, and cause for these symptoms that would be important; a worthwhile doctor will eliminate other possible causes. As one doctor explained to me, it tends to be more a diagnosis of elimination than of proof, since there is no precise testing to ensure accuracy. However, in the course of the thread the tone has come to be more dismissive of AS instead of looking at comparative issues - thus my response.


M.


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Eggman
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11 Dec 2008, 1:50 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Quote:
Given that asbegers may be composed of amny parts that by themselves are not aspergers...
Is it possible to simply be born with those various triats and as a result seem to have it?


It is possible to have aspects, to have a series of experiences and quirks that would be similar to AS. I don't think that one would simply be born with all the same symptoms without underlying cause, and most things I can think of that would exhibit similarly to spectrum are not necessarily resulting from, apparent or existing at the time of birth. It is the concurrence, intensity, and cause for these symptoms that would be important; a worthwhile doctor will eliminate other possible causes. As one doctor explained to me, it tends to be more a diagnosis of elimination than of proof, since there is no precise testing to ensure accuracy. However, in the course of the thread the tone has come to be more dismissive of AS instead of looking at comparative issues - thus my response.


M.


meh not my fault if people try to steer it away from its porpuse. Whish people wopuld stay on topics though



makuranososhi
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11 Dec 2008, 2:07 am

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you intended to convey with that statement - if you would, please explain.


M.


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Eggman
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11 Dec 2008, 2:08 am

makuranososhi wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you intended to convey with that statement - if you would, please explain.


M.


wait...is that my lollipop?



makuranososhi
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11 Dec 2008, 2:20 am

Even if it was, you're not getting it back. It's peppermint.

I see I have my answer - thank you.


M.


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