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Abangyarudo
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20 Mar 2009, 11:47 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
I will clarify that if I see another attack on Spokane Girl I will get involved ... that is the last warning ...


Abangyarudo, you are not the one to give warnings, that is the province of the moderators. Mods have watched you and ephemerella continue your tempestuous romance across several threads, and as long as your conversation is not a violation the rules, you have been allowed to continue.

But I draw the line at you issuing 'warnings' because the only warning any member on WrongPlanet.net should heed is from THE MODERATORS.

and Moderator Warnings are a courtesy only, there is no rule that says we must warn.

Merle
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I didn't give her a warning based on her being banned from WP I gave her a warning based on if she continued I will go back. Now as far as the romance part have fun with that idea I'm doing what other mods should have done when someone attacks another member through several threads. So yes I will continue what I have to do and since I have never claimed or said that my actions are WP sponsored I see no point in your claims. If There is any further problem feel free to pm me.


The procedure for reporting abuse or rule violation on WP is PMing a moderator, not becoming a vigilante. If you refuse to bring the incident to the attention of the moderator and decide to take matters into your own hands, then this is also grounds for being banned.

Merle
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I pmed the mod the mod originally involved. He is not on and quite frankly its a simple procedure to make a report button on the forum. I don't see the point in me mindlessly pming mods to find which ones are on. Yet similarly you have to still post in a thread after I invited you to pm me just reeks of having to puff your chest out. Its cool if that is the behavior that will be active in wp then I think I want no part of it.



sinsboldly
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20 Mar 2009, 11:51 am

Abangyarudo wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
I will clarify that if I see another attack on Spokane Girl I will get involved ... that is the last warning ...


Abangyarudo, you are not the one to give warnings, that is the province of the moderators. Mods have watched you and ephemerella continue your tempestuous romance across several threads, and as long as your conversation is not a violation the rules, you have been allowed to continue.

But I draw the line at you issuing 'warnings' because the only warning any member on WrongPlanet.net should heed is from THE MODERATORS.

and Moderator Warnings are a courtesy only, there is no rule that says we must warn.

Merle
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I didn't give her a warning based on her being banned from WP I gave her a warning based on if she continued I will go back. Now as far as the romance part have fun with that idea I'm doing what other mods should have done when someone attacks another member through several threads. So yes I will continue what I have to do and since I have never claimed or said that my actions are WP sponsored I see no point in your claims. If There is any further problem feel free to pm me.


The procedure for reporting abuse or rule violation on WP is PMing a moderator, not becoming a vigilante. If you refuse to bring the incident to the attention of the moderator and decide to take matters into your own hands, then this is also grounds for being banned.

Merle
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I pmed the mod the mod originally involved. He is not on and quite frankly its a simple procedure to make a report button on the forum. I don't see the point in me mindlessly pming mods to find which ones are on. Yet similarly you have to still post in a thread after I invited you to pm me just reeks of having to puff your chest out. Its cool if that is the behavior that will be active in wp then I think I want no part of it.


That is a decision you will have to make for yourself, Abangyarudo, however if you continue on your present course, the decision will be made for you.

Merle
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Abangyarudo
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20 Mar 2009, 11:55 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
I will clarify that if I see another attack on Spokane Girl I will get involved ... that is the last warning ...


Abangyarudo, you are not the one to give warnings, that is the province of the moderators. Mods have watched you and ephemerella continue your tempestuous romance across several threads, and as long as your conversation is not a violation the rules, you have been allowed to continue.

But I draw the line at you issuing 'warnings' because the only warning any member on WrongPlanet.net should heed is from THE MODERATORS.

and Moderator Warnings are a courtesy only, there is no rule that says we must warn.

Merle
Moderator


I didn't give her a warning based on her being banned from WP I gave her a warning based on if she continued I will go back. Now as far as the romance part have fun with that idea I'm doing what other mods should have done when someone attacks another member through several threads. So yes I will continue what I have to do and since I have never claimed or said that my actions are WP sponsored I see no point in your claims. If There is any further problem feel free to pm me.


The procedure for reporting abuse or rule violation on WP is PMing a moderator, not becoming a vigilante. If you refuse to bring the incident to the attention of the moderator and decide to take matters into your own hands, then this is also grounds for being banned.

Merle
Moderator


I pmed the mod the mod originally involved. He is not on and quite frankly its a simple procedure to make a report button on the forum. I don't see the point in me mindlessly pming mods to find which ones are on. Yet similarly you have to still post in a thread after I invited you to pm me just reeks of having to puff your chest out. Its cool if that is the behavior that will be active in wp then I think I want no part of it.


That is a decision you will have to make for yourself, Abangyarudo, however if you continue on your present course, the decision will be made for you.

Merle
Moderator


Really? what rules did I break supposedly to warrant a banning? I guess saying that your attempting to puff out your chest is an insult?



ephemerella
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20 Mar 2009, 12:00 pm

I found a small tutorial, "Dealing with Manipulative People", that has a summary from a book outlining manipulative people and how to deal with them, etc. It was such a brief and easy-to-read tutorial that I really want to post it here because it's so helpful.

This is not intended to be targeted at any individual, really. I remember from a comment I made earlier in this thread about whether or not lying and deception is a part of manipulation, and this tutorial outlines what roles deceptive behavior ("covert aggression") plays in manipulation and control. I like the below because it lists the forms that some of that deceptive behavior takes, which is good specific info for people who lack Theory of Mind. Because I need specifics like that, I'm posting it here for others too.

The link above is to a summary of the book. Below is an edited version of the summary:

Dealing With Manipulative People
An Excerpt from the book: In Sheep's Clothing
By George K. Simon

Two Basic Types of Aggression

There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation....

Acts of Covert-Aggression vs. Covert-Aggressive Personalities

Most of us have engaged in some sort of covertly aggressive behavior from time to time. Periodically trying to manipulate a person or a situation doesn't make someone a covert-aggressive personality. Personality can be defined by the way a person habitually perceives, relates to and interacts with others and the world at large....

The Process of Victimization

For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons:

A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our feelings....

The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting, caring, defending, ..., almost anything but fighting. ...

All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. ...

Recognizing Aggressive Agendas

Accepting how fundamental it is for people to fight for the things they want and becoming more aware of the subtle, underhanded ways people can and do fight in their daily endeavors and relationships can be very consciousness expanding. Learning to recognize an aggressive move when somebody makes one and learning how to handle oneself in any of life's many battles, has turned out to be the most empowering experience for the manipulation victims with whom I've worked. ...

Defense Mechanisms and Offensive Tactics

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. ...

Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. ...

Rationalization – A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. ...

In the story of little Lisa, Mary felt uneasy about the relentlessness with which Joe pursued his quest to make his daughter an obedient, all-A student once again. And, she was aware of Lisa's expressed desire to pursue counseling as a means of addressing and perhaps solving some of her problems. Although Mary felt uneasy about Joe's forcefulness and sensed the impact on her daughter, she allowed herself to become persuaded by his rationalizations ...

Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas.

Lying – It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. ...

Covert Intimidation – Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. ...

Guilt-tripping – One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon. ...

Shaming – This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance....

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. ...

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive. ...

Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. ...

Seduction – Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered) want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than anything. ...

Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.



Fidget
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20 Mar 2009, 12:16 pm

Iblis wrote:
It's often said that aspies arent manipulative and don't like manipulative people.


I've been told I'm manipulative before by my parents. My mom constantly tells me I manipulate other people to get my way and one day I'm going to run out of people to use. Maybe it's true. *shrugs*



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20 Mar 2009, 12:31 pm

Fidget wrote:
Iblis wrote:
It's often said that aspies arent manipulative and don't like manipulative people.


I've been told I'm manipulative before by my parents. My mom constantly tells me I manipulate other people to get my way and one day I'm going to run out of people to use. Maybe it's true. *shrugs*


This happens a lot. There was a great thread on this topic in "Love & Dating" last year.

What happens is that a lot of NT's are "mind blind" about how we are "mind blind". They don't get that we don't know what we're doing when we misstep. So they think that the little mistakes we make are on purpose to be sarcastic, insulting, etc. When it's someone we're close to, they know we're not trying to hurt them, but they tend to take these misinterpretations of our behavior and believe that we're being "manipulative".

So if I'm packing food for a road trip, and I take forever, my husband might think I'm stalling or trying to show my anger at something. He'll say, "You know we have to get on the road by 10 o'clock or we'll get stuck in rush hour, you're stalling on purpose to make me angry." But actually I'm not stalling, I just have to pack things in a certain order and in a certain way, and I'm really not able to change that or speed things up much. An NT would look at my not speeding up and not cutting corners as being "passive aggressive" or "manipulative". But I can't help it, because I won't be able to pack unless I do it a certain way.

So I think that maybe your parents know that you love them and that you aren't trying to hurt them or insult them. But when there are mistakes that you make that they think you are doing on purpose, maybe they think that you're being "manipulative".

I have to tell my husband, this is why I'm doing this, then he remembers.



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20 Mar 2009, 12:34 pm

It is true about not liking the idea of being manipulated. It's strange because sometimes it doesn't bother me while at other times I get these feelings when I am being manipulated, ones of annoyance and stubborness.
I start to resent, but not every time. It's when someone asks me to do something and I don't feel like doing it right then, like when someone used to demand I put my clothes in the dryer right away. For some reason that particular thing annoyed me. It's sorta like being manipulated. My response was "I'll do it later" That would only escalate things.
So do I like being manipulated? I would say no. I would say that I do manipulate to some extent, but not as much as I see others manipulating. I am not as good at manipulating as people in relationships with the opposite sex. I think about those and realize most free time is spent manipulating. At times it seems like all a relationship is is two people manipulating each other on a tiring basis. I don't have the strength to be that manipulative IRL.



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20 Mar 2009, 12:38 pm

Manaspielation topic

You can only be manipulated if you play the game.

If you do not play, you cannot be used.

That is it. 8)


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20 Mar 2009, 12:47 pm

sartresue wrote:
Manaspielation topic

You can only be manipulated if you play the game.

If you do not play, you cannot be used.

That is it. 8)


I agree with that. But with qualifications:

It's easy to get sucked in at first. Especially because none of us are perfect and have personal insecurities and vanities. But you get to a point where you realize that it's a battle and a game.

Then, after that, once you become aware that there's something going on, you have to make a conscious decision to give in or engage in a battle.

For some people who have been bullied a lot, making the decision to get run out of town, give the other person your toys and/or let them beat up on you at pleasure, is a difficult one.

I think that the right decision is twofold:

(1) Recognize that there can be "rightness" in the other person's behavior. In the example in the summary above, the parent wanted the kid to be a better student, more obedient daughter, etc. So even if the person is doing something wrongly, they may have good intentions, really. So if the person is right in some of the things that they are trying to use their aggression for, I think that you have to respect them enough to think about what that is.

(2) Recognize where your own ego, vanity, insecurity or fears (fears of bullying?) may have made you vulnerable to reacting badly or a victim. And stop doing that "bad" or self-defeating stuff to yourself, too.

Then, the situation might resolve.



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20 Mar 2009, 12:51 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
...My response was "I'll do it later" That would only escalate things. ....


My husband hates that. He used to tell me that I knew that I wasn't going to do it later, why was I telling him that? But then I really intended to get around to it but my executive function gets away from me...



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20 Mar 2009, 1:37 pm

Quoting Mechanima:

Quote:
I even know one manipulative Aspie who uses AS as a kind of alibi by saying things like:
"I couldn't possibly be lying because I am an Aspie and Aspies can't lie" even if you catch him red handed...which is ridiculous, but you would be surprised how many NT know no better and fall for it (or pretend to).


I've come across this same type - the I "can't" lie, it's "impossible" for me to lie - type." Trouble is, I think these types might actually believe what they say because most of the time, in most situations they would have a very difficult time lying for ethical reasons. It would bother their conscience, they would obsess over the lie, so rather than go through all that, they will readily admit wrongdoing when they have done wrong. So in this way, the I "can't" lie statement or belief would seem to be true when it is actually a case of "I "choose" not to lie because I believe lying is wrong. It's like the George Washington quote: "Father, I can not tell a lie." Now we know George could tell a lie if he wanted to, but he chose not to. (probably because the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming his finger prints on the axe, an eye witness, wood chips in his boots - so telling a lie would be foolish and bring down even more wrath from his father.) I think that with Aspies who say they "can't" lie it is more a case of their thinking that their perceptions are infallible. If they think they are right - they must be right. So, if for example, this type is accused of stealing a cookie from a cookie jar, and they, in fact, did not steal the cookie from the cookie car, they would say, No, I did not steal the cookie, in addition to being indignant, possibly fuming, that anyone would accuse them of such a thing. Then, this kind of thinking might carry over into situations where subjective perceptions differ and the I "cant" lie-type equates his or her perceptions with the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. When actually, it's just his or her perception of what went down.



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20 Mar 2009, 1:45 pm

sartresue wrote:
Manaspielation topic

You can only be manipulated if you play the game.

If you do not play, you cannot be used.

That is it. 8)

On the other hand if you play it well the game can be an awful lot of fun. Especially if you get to spend a lot of time screwing over some of the nasty NTs. (Note here I am not saying that all NT's are nasty, before someone jumps on me)



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20 Mar 2009, 1:48 pm

On lying: I think it depends on neurology. Really, I think it's a brain thing. Some AS who are systemizers can't compartmentalize and I'm one of them. I can't distinguish between a step and a full thing. All the parts of the system are all the system and the system is all the parts.

The inability to compartmentalize means that I can't lie (or if I lie it's obvious and painful) and I can't act well. But it also means I can't work well on one part of the system when I don't understand the whole thing or vice versa.

So I'm actually very limited in my range of functioning intellectually, in that I only have a few modes of abstract thinking. I think of what I have as a kind of High I.Q. retardation.

I think maybe it is that type of AS person who has a hard time lying.



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20 Mar 2009, 1:50 pm

ephemerella wrote:
On lying: I think it depends on neurology. Really, I think it's a brain thing. Some AS who are systemizers can't compartmentalize and I'm one of them. I can't distinguish between a step and a full thing. All the parts of the system are all the system and the system is all the parts.

The inability to compartmentalize means that I can't lie (or if I lie it's obvious and painful) and I can't act well. But it also means I can't work well on one part of the system when I don't understand the whole thing or vice versa.

So I'm actually very limited in my range of functioning intellectually, in that I only have a few modes of abstract thinking. I think of what I have as a kind of High I.Q. retardation.

I think maybe it is that type of AS person who has a hard time lying.

Basically any aspie who feels morally bound to obey the ethics code laid out by society has a problem lying. I freed myself from such stupidity a long long time ago.



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20 Mar 2009, 1:57 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
<snip> I think maybe it is that type of AS person who has a hard time lying.

Basically any aspie who feels morally bound to obey the ethics code laid out by society has a problem lying. I freed myself from such stupidity a long long time ago.[/quote]

I've thought about that. This is a really important question but I was never able to do it. How did you free yourself from your social behavior codes without becoming socially disoriented? It's not as if I can surf on a wave of real-time empathy. What social code or system gives structure to your behavior, then? Do you have more of a social empathy than some AS?



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20 Mar 2009, 2:13 pm

ephemerella wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
<snip> I think maybe it is that type of AS person who has a hard time lying.

Basically any aspie who feels morally bound to obey the ethics code laid out by society has a problem lying. I freed myself from such stupidity a long long time ago.


I've thought about that. This is a really important question but I was never able to do it. How did you free yourself from your social behavior codes without becoming socially disoriented? It's not as if I can surf on a wave of real-time empathy. What social code or system gives structure to your behavior, then? Do you have more of a social empathy than some AS?[/quote]
This may sound slightly cliche, but I suppose the main thing is I really do believe in myself and know what I want socially. What I personally did (I offer no guarantees as to whom it will work for) is looked at all my social codes, sat down for a long length of time then looked at a load of books on political obligation, social skills for executives. Then I went out and met loads of people who are probably on the spectrum and looked out how they live their lives. Finally I experimented a lot, the university environment is one of the best places to experiment, if not the best. After all that, I pretty much now know what my cake is and how to eat it. Seems I am not the only one to have done something like this either.