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Aristophanes
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20 Sep 2015, 11:01 pm

Raleigh wrote:
If you commit suicide you're a selfish a***hole.

androbot01 wrote:
People sometimes seem to be angry at another's perceived weakness when they commit suicide. And I think there is more than anger, almost a sense of being offended. Like suicide is bad manners because look out how great the world we made is. Suicide is viewed as rejection of society and of one's social network. I think this is where the anger comes from, in part.


Hierarchy and hive-mind: if you decide to off yourself you can no longer work for the collective, this is viewed as a selfish act because your goal should be to increase the power of the collective. The members of the collective don't understand suicide because they believe the "world we made" is "great"-- they've been systematically programmed to respond positively to that meme since childhood.



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21 Sep 2015, 1:34 am

Then the solution is for the disenfranchised to build an insurgent collective...

Oh, wait... :roll: :lol:


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28 Sep 2015, 6:08 am

He had no rational reason to kill himself.


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28 Sep 2015, 10:19 am

Some suicidal people manage to convince themselves that the people they leave behind won't care, that the world will keep on spinning and the loss of them in it will have no significance whatsoever.

When depression is there, a sense of self-worthlessness isn't far behind. All the talk about suicide being selfish doesn't exactly make a suicidally depressed person feel any better, it just makes them feel guilty and even less deserving to be on the planet.



smudge
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29 Sep 2015, 9:48 am

Noca wrote:
This is a post from a depression forum that helped me answer that question.

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What happens when you die?

You're no longer here for the people who love you and need you and who will be frightened and alone without you there to support and guide them, like your kids.

You can no longer receive nor give love to those you care about.

You will never see your boyfriend again, never again know the times you have been happy. You will never ever have answers to the questions about what awaits around the corner.

You will miss every good thing that is still slated to come your way because you will not be here to receive it.

The untimely ending of your pain will be the beginning of it for so many others who don't want or deserve the burden. They will live with your absence and your choice to leave and the way you did it, and possibly the trauma if they are the ones to find you or identify you for the rest of their lives. And it may be contagious.

You will never have another chance at anything. The life you have lived and the point you are at is the farthest you will ever go, and this will be the most you will have ever accomplished.

That's what happens when you die.


See that right there is all about how other people would feel. What if they don't give a damn what you feel when you're still alive? They won't after you die either. That quote is all about the guilt they will suffer if you die, not giving a damn about preventing your death.

As for accomplishment, that's just material, and again, about comparing yourself to other people i.e. it's about what *they* think. Nothing matters when you're dead. You're not alive to think about whether you've even accomplished anything or not.



kraftiekortie
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29 Sep 2015, 9:56 am

I like the Tolkien quote myself.



Anachron
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29 Sep 2015, 11:25 am

Survivors are the selfish ones. Whining about how they feel and what it did to them. They never took the time to understand his pain and struggles.



smudge
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29 Sep 2015, 12:38 pm

Anachron wrote:
Survivors are the selfish ones. Whining about how they feel and what it did to them. They never took the time to understand his pain and struggles.


Exactly.



smudge
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29 Sep 2015, 12:40 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
People sometimes seem to be angry at another's perceived weakness when they commit suicide. And I think there is more than anger, almost a sense of being offended. Like suicide is bad manners because look out how great the world we made is. Suicide is viewed as rejection of society and of one's social network. I think this is where the anger comes from, in part.


Hierarchy and hive-mind: if you decide to off yourself you can no longer work for the collective, this is viewed as a selfish act because your goal should be to increase the power of the collective. The members of the collective don't understand suicide because they believe the "world we made" is "great"-- they've been systematically programmed to respond positively to that meme since childhood.


Agreed with both of you.



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29 Sep 2015, 1:35 pm

Suicide should be punishable by death.


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29 Sep 2015, 3:19 pm

"Damned unsporting of the almighty to fix his canon against self-slaughter."

- Hornblower


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30 Sep 2015, 9:56 am

To my understanding, if you've made long-term plans with a woman you've been in a long-term relationship with, then perhaps it is devastating. Perhaps the equivalent of having your favourite TV Show cancelled or a film you're immensely enjoying suddenly end Sopranos style.

When someone reacts to the end of a relationship with suicide if they've only been in a relationship with someone for days, let alone weeks, then that's what I find baffling. You develop an intimate connection in your own special way over time, not overnight or as soon as 'school playground style' the girl/guy grabs your hand and says "we're together!"



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02 Oct 2015, 10:51 pm

Well, from what I have seen and experienced it usually f***s up people's heads for a good long while afterwards. I've had friends commit suicide and I've had loved ones do it and I've seen people at the funeral home and the bodies afterwards and it's not pretty usually. Sometimes it's way not pretty and an open casket isn't possible.

Some people commit suicide without thinking it out and may not really want to die but may want to want to die and to make a statement about that and feel like when somebody or some divine being or something sees how desperate they are, then things will fix themselves. Or sometimes people do it to hurt others and they don't think about the fact that they won't be around when the people they want to make sorry are actually sorry. They won't benefit at all from it. Others do it because they are drunk and depressed and it seems like a damn good idea at the time. Sometimes it's just an attempt and it's meant to shock people but they accidentally die. Other times it's just depression and everything seems hopeless so you think why the hell not. I was in the last category. I drank a pint of vodka and took a handful of Xanax and Ambien. I obviously did not die.

But, I don't know what happens to the person in the afterlife or if there even is one. There are lots of ideas and you have to choose your own. The only thing I can tell you about is how it effects your family and what happens to the body.

TLDR: You f**k up everybody you ever loved, in the head, for a good long while. That's what.


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02 Oct 2015, 11:37 pm

That may be true, but why is it the responsibility of one person to live so as not to effect others. That's a heck of an obligation. Everyone dies. If someone dies by suicide, so be it. It's like losing someone you care about to any illness. It sucks, but it's the way it is. Who is one to say if another's suicide is right or wrong?



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03 Oct 2015, 12:00 am

androbot01 wrote:
That may be true, but why is it the responsibility of one person to live so as not to effect others. That's a heck of an obligation. Everyone dies. If someone dies by suicide, so be it. It's like losing someone you care about to any illness. It sucks, but it's the way it is. Who is one to say if another's suicide is right or wrong?


Then if you are hell bent on doing it, or have a terminal illness and don't want to go through the pain, then at least talk it out with your family and friends first to prepare them. In cases when somebody is dying of cancer or whatever then I don't think it would hurt the family more, but when it's sudden and shocking then it's going to f**k people up. If nothing else, and somebody is doing it out of depression or mental illness or whatever, then at least have a suicide conversation with friends and family a few days before doing it. Even if it's a general conversation like "What do you think about it" etc and don't state your intent if yo udon't want to deal with that. Also, leave long, explicit letters absolving every single person you ever loved or who has loved you, from blame. Explain why you did it and that there was NOTHING anyone could do about it. That won't help a whole lot but it might get rid of some guilt.

Of course, if I were going to do it I would probably leave a note that says "It's your fault" and not address it to anybody. That way, everybody would wonder.

Actually, I wouldn't do that, but if you don't leave a note and make sure people understand, you might as well have left that note I mentioned to everybody you know, cause they will take the blame.

I still blame myself that I didn't just think about going over to my neighbors house last year on the day she blew her brains out. I could have stopped it and I know it, and she was hungover and probably still f****d up and her family was mad at her and she's been suicidal before and gotten through it and we talked about it and all but I was mad at her and hadn't seen her in a while and knew something was up but said f**k it since she's gonna be snooty and say she can't talk to me anymore cause her husband said so. I never cared what he said anyway, but I could have done something and knew she was in the s**t but I decided to let her stew. Wrong decision on my part but it wsn't my fault cause what she did had nothing to do with me or anything about me. I could have just distracted her and stopped it. I don't think she thought hers out, and it was a spur of the moment half drunk remorseful BS type thing. Stupid. Should have used pills but no she used the gun. Pills would have bought time, and got her stomach pumped and maybe got her family to let up on her. But nope. She never was the smartest cookie in the jar.


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03 Oct 2015, 12:39 am

"Suicide conversation" is a great phrase!

OliveOilMom wrote:
.. Explain why you did it and that there was NOTHING anyone could do about it. That won't help a whole lot but it might get rid of some guilt.

This guilt is the bearer's responsibility to deal with.

Quote:
Of course, if I were going to do it I would probably leave a note that says "It's your fault" and not address it to anybody. That way, everybody would wonder.

Haha

Quote:
I still blame myself that I didn't just think about going over to my neighbors house last year on the day she blew her brains out.

The "what-ifs" can go in all directions. You choose which to follow. For example, what if you had gone over there and things went differently from what you imagine? There are so many possibilities. Ultimately your neighbour was ill.

I'm not saying suicide is a good thing. It probably hurts for everyone. But some of us are gonna go that way.