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kokokoko99
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22 Feb 2024, 3:09 pm

Questions about the terms Neurodiversity uses.

1.
Neurodiversity holds that Autism is not a disorder.

How does Neurodiversity name ADHD?

The name ADHD includes Disorder.

2.
Does neurodiversity claim that schizophrenia is not a disorder?




(I am a Korean who has been diagnosed with autism in Korea.)



funeralxempire
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22 Feb 2024, 3:53 pm

There's likely people who would insist none of the above are disorders.

I'd question if they've actually experienced having any of the above though. Maybe for those individuals it's not a disorder but they don't get to speak for the entirety of people with autism, ADHD or whatever.


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What_in_the_what_now
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22 Feb 2024, 4:00 pm

Im equally confused by the NT rhetoric



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22 Feb 2024, 4:26 pm

I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


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What_in_the_what_now
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22 Feb 2024, 7:14 pm

BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?



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22 Feb 2024, 9:19 pm

What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?


You're born with a predisposition, but the symptoms don't typically emerge until after puberty. There's often a prodrome period prior to more typical symptoms emerging.

Very-early onset schizophrenia does exist, but it's relatively rare.


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22 Feb 2024, 10:23 pm

What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?

That's a bit of a tough one as at a certain point, the traits no longer constitute autism and would constitute something on the schizophrenia spectrum. Additionally, while there are aspects of schizophrenia that do look very much like they're neurological in nature, it is possible with medication and treatment for the symptoms to mostly go away for periods without the person becoming somebody completely different.
funeralxempire wrote:
What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?


You're born with a predisposition, but the symptoms don't typically emerge until after puberty. There's often a prodrome period prior to more typical symptoms emerging.

Very-early onset schizophrenia does exist, but it's relatively rare.

It does, but from what I understand, a lot of those cases shouldn't have been diagnosed as schizophrenia in the first place. Those folks were mostly just extremely traumatized autistic children.



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23 Feb 2024, 8:33 am

People will always bend their universe to make 2+2=5

Many do it to make themselves feel better about themselves, others less moral will do it to make themselves feel better at the expense of others.

The internet is full of such people and many of those in ND communicate their views online

Autism is diagnosed on deficits alone so something a human should be able to do but they cannot like talking.

That’s why it’s a disorder. Doesn’t mean of course sometimes those deficits cannot be mitigated in some way like the internet allows for non verbal communication.

So a non verbal autistic person doesn’t have to go out and buy food instead can order online.

Schizophrenia does sometimes come out in childhood and is usually something someone is born with but comes out later like a timebomb

This is because many causes of schizophrenia are genetic.

There are many conditions people are born with that are symptom less until later in life even autism itself sometimes


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24 Feb 2024, 8:41 am

The cause of schizophrenia is not fully known, but the disease is considered to be of multifactorial genesis with heredity and psychosocial stress as risk factors. Various stressors can increase the risk of developing the disease, such as: lack of sleep, malnutrition, alcohol or drug abuse, systemic diseases. Psychosocial stressors such as migration, exclusion, childhood trauma, unemployment and homelessness are known to increase the risk of schizophrenia.


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24 Feb 2024, 9:07 am

Imo you can be for neurodiversity and still believe autism and other stuff are disorders.


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24 Feb 2024, 9:10 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?

That's a bit of a tough one as at a certain point, the traits no longer constitute autism and would constitute something on the schizophrenia spectrum. Additionally, while there are aspects of schizophrenia that do look very much like they're neurological in nature, it is possible with medication and treatment for the symptoms to mostly go away for periods without the person becoming somebody completely different.
funeralxempire wrote:
What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?


You're born with a predisposition, but the symptoms don't typically emerge until after puberty. There's often a prodrome period prior to more typical symptoms emerging.

Very-early onset schizophrenia does exist, but it's relatively rare.

It does, but from what I understand, a lot of those cases shouldn't have been diagnosed as schizophrenia in the first place. Those folks were mostly just extremely traumatized autistic children.

I have heard of cases of children having schizophrenia. The most well-known symptom i.e. hearing voices, doesn't always get reported, because for children the voices can be friendly and the children don't know there's anything unusual about hearing them. It becomes a problem after puberty when the voices become antagonistic.


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24 Feb 2024, 10:21 am

MaxE wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?

That's a bit of a tough one as at a certain point, the traits no longer constitute autism and would constitute something on the schizophrenia spectrum. Additionally, while there are aspects of schizophrenia that do look very much like they're neurological in nature, it is possible with medication and treatment for the symptoms to mostly go away for periods without the person becoming somebody completely different.
funeralxempire wrote:
What_in_the_what_now wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I am not Neurodiversity and can only speak for myself. I think Autism is what it is. It's something you are born with as a part of your personality. If you think your autism is a disorder then it is a disorder. Disorder or not - I think it depends on who you are and how you manage it. Some people are clearly disabled by their autism while others can turn some of their traits into useful strenghts. Schizophrenia is a mental illness with symptoms progressing and fluctuating over time. It's nothing you are born with and is treatable with medicine.


You're not born with Schizophrenia?


You're born with a predisposition, but the symptoms don't typically emerge until after puberty. There's often a prodrome period prior to more typical symptoms emerging.

Very-early onset schizophrenia does exist, but it's relatively rare.

It does, but from what I understand, a lot of those cases shouldn't have been diagnosed as schizophrenia in the first place. Those folks were mostly just extremely traumatized autistic children.

I have heard of cases of children having schizophrenia. The most well-known symptom i.e. hearing voices, doesn't always get reported, because for children the voices can be friendly and the children don't know there's anything unusual about hearing them. It becomes a problem after puberty when the voices become antagonistic.

It's complicated, but basically children being diagnosed as schizophrenic is usually a misdiagnosis for something else. It probably wouldn't happen even as often as it does, if they hadn't nuked the AS diagnosis and stopped pretending like developmental conditions have to happen super-early. We know now that development goes on until sometime in one's mid-20s. Schizophrenia is not a neurodevelopmental disorder. It's typical for schizophrenics to have had some lengthy period of their life where they were more or less normal, prior to a prodrome period.With children, you can't reliably establish that just because there's just not that much time between when it's normal to have a lot of imaginative play and when the "schizophrenia" strikes.

I had a schizoaffective diagnosis at the earliest possible point, and it was completely wrong. It should have been either an AS+ADHD diagnosis or PDD-NOS and the "symptoms" were entirely the result of trauma and being forced to live a life of masking without knowing why I was doing it, or even being aware that I was doing it. But, at the time the DSM IV was the kind, you couldn't have ADHD+OCD and in general, there was very little effort made to listen to the people that have the diagnoses about what the real issues are.

Ultimately, childhood schizophrenia is a rare thing, and inadequately studied. It's questionable, at best, if pumping these kids full of antipsychotics is morally, or practically, any different from ABA. I only got "better" because I recognized that the hallucinations were always accompanied by migraines and that I could control them because I had an unusual amount of ability at mentalizing sounds. But, ultimately, without a diagnosis for PDD in the range between what we consider to be developmental and what we consider to be an adult onset disorder, we're going to continue to ruin children's lives with wrong diagnoses and medical abuse.
colliegrace wrote:
Imo you can be for neurodiversity and still believe autism and other stuff are disorders.

Yep, being for or against it doesn't change reality. It's not that different from recognizing that various disabilities are simultaneously a bit of a problem, while also recognizing that sometimes they do result in benefits to society at large.



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24 Feb 2024, 3:52 pm

Many schizophrenics had small incidents of psychosis in their childhood before the full blown condition happened, many disorders are there at birth but take a while to come out.

I would add that Schizophrenics have their own ND movement where they too sugar coat the condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_V ... 20lifetime)%20and%20significant.

Some key points:

Quote:
The position of the hearing voices movement can be summarised as follows:[20][30]

Hearing voices is not in itself a sign of mental illness.
Hearing voices is part of the diversity of being a human, it is a faculty that is common (3-10% of the population will hear a voice or voices in their lifetime) and significant.
Hearing voices is experienced by many people who do not have symptoms that would lead to diagnosis of mental illness
.


Quote:
The international Hearing Voices Movement is a prominent mental health service-user/survivor movement that promotes the needs and perspectives of experts by experience in the phenomenon of hearing voices (auditory verbal hallucinations). The main tenet of the Hearing Voices Movement is the notion that hearing voices is a meaningful human experience.[


Quote:
The Hearing Voices Movement regards itself and is regarded by others as being a post-psychiatric organisation.[14][15][16] It positions itself outside of the mental health world in recognition that voices are an aspect of human difference, rather than a mental health problem.



Where have we heard all this before :roll: :lol:

So it looks like we are not alone in having these type of people in our community that reject logic & science


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24 Feb 2024, 8:28 pm

kokokoko99 wrote:
Questions about the terms Neurodiversity uses.

1.
Neurodiversity holds that Autism is not a disorder.

How does Neurodiversity name ADHD?

The name ADHD includes Disorder.

2.
Does neurodiversity claim that schizophrenia is not a disorder?




(I am a Korean who has been diagnosed with autism in Korea.)

There are degrees of inclusion on how people uses the term neurodiversity.

The most exclusive interpretations only ever includes in-born conditions, does not include mental illness -- thus excluding schizophrenia.
The most inclusive interpretations includes mental illnesses -- meaning also schizophrenia, personality disorders and any experiences that diverges typical perception and experiences.
This is a simplification.

Thus you will get mixed replies if and IF schizophrenia is considered under neurodiversity.

Any advocates or group would say what it mean; inclusion for all, idealism.
Any advocates or group, no matter their experience, may even misuse it. Because **** words and languages.


I don't believe in rigidity of semantics.
They're a waste of time.

But if you don't want a less concrete reply, start here:
Quote:
NEURODIVERSITY: SOME BASIC TERMS & DEFINITIONS Nick Walker, PhD

What It Means:
Neurodiversity is the diversity of human minds, the infinite variation in neurocognitive functioning within our species.

What It Doesn’t Mean:
Neurodiversity is a biological fact. It’s not a perspective, an approach, a belief, a political position, or a paradigm. That’s the neurodiversity paradigm (see below), not neurodiversity itself.

Neurodiversity is not a political or social activist movement. That’s the Neurodiversity Movement (see below), not neurodiversity itself.

Neurodiversity is not a trait that any individual possesses or can possess. When an individual or group of individuals diverges from the dominant societal standards of “normal” neurocognitive functioning, they don’t “have neurodiversity,” they’re neurodivergent (see below).

---

NEURODIVERSITY PARADIGM
What It Means:
The neurodiversity paradigm is a specific perspective on neurodiversity – a perspective or approach that boils down to these fundamental principles:

1.) Neurodiversity is a natural and valuable form of human diversity.

2.) The idea that there is one “normal” or “healthy” type of brain or mind, or one “right” style of neurocognitive functioning, is a culturally constructed fiction, no more valid (and no more conducive to a healthy society or to the overall well-being of humanity) than the idea that there is one “normal” or “right” ethnicity, gender, or culture.

3.) The social dynamics that manifest in regard to neurodiversity are similar to the social dynamics that manifest in regard to other forms of human diversity (e.g., diversity of ethnicity, gender, or culture). These dynamics include the dynamics of social power inequalities, and also the dynamics by which diversity, when embraced, acts as a source of creative potential.

---

NEURODIVERSITY MOVEMENT
What It Means:
The Neurodiversity Movement is a social justice movement that seeks civil rights, equality, respect, and full societal inclusion for the neurodivergent.

What It Doesn’t Mean:
The Neurodiversity Movement is not a single group or organization, is not run by any single group or organization, and has no leader. Like most civil rights movements, the Neurodiversity Movement is made up of a great many individuals, some of them organized into groups of one sort or another. These individuals and groups are quite diverse in their viewpoints, goals, concerns, political positions, affiliations, methods of activism, and interpretations of the neurodiversity paradigm.

The Neurodiversity Movement began within the Autism Rights Movement, and there is still a great deal of overlap between the two movements. But the Neurodiversity Movement and the Autism Rights Movement are not one and the same. The most significant distinction between the two is that the Neurodiversity Movement seeks to be inclusive of all neurominorities, not just Autistics. Also, there some who advocate for the rights of Autistics but who cannot rightly be considered part of the Neurodiversity Movement because they still consider autism to be a medical pathology or “disorder,” a view at odds with the neurodiversity paradigm.

---

NEURODIVERGENT and NEURODIVERGENCE
What It Means:
Neurodivergent, sometimes abbreviated as ND, means having a mind that functions in ways which diverge significantly from the dominant societal standards of “normal.”

Neurodivergent is quite a broad term. Neurodivergence (the state of being neurodivergent) can be largely or entirely genetic and innate, or it can be largely or entirely produced by brain-altering experience, or some combination of the two. Autism and dyslexia are examples of innate forms of neurodivergence, while alterations in brain functioning caused by such things as trauma, long-term meditation practice, or heavy usage of psychedelic drugs are examples of forms of neurodivergence produced through experience.

A person whose neurocognitive functioning diverges from dominant societal norms in multiple ways – for instance, a person who is Autistic, dyslexic, and epileptic – can be described as multiply neurodivergent.

Some forms of innate or largely innate neurodivergence, like autism, are intrinsic and pervasive factors in an individual’s psyche, personality, and fundamental way of relating to the world. The neurodiversity paradigm rejects the pathologizing of such forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement opposes attempts to get rid of them.

Other forms of neurodivergence, like epilepsy or the effects of traumatic brain injuries, could be removed from an individual without erasing fundamental aspects of the individual’s selfhood, and in many cases the individual would be happy to be rid of such forms of neurodivergence. The neurodiversity paradigm does not reject the pathologizing of these forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement does not object to consensual attempts to cure them (but still most definitely objects to discrimination against people who have them).

Thus, neurodivergence is not intrinsically positive or negative, desirable or undesirable – it all depends on what sort of neurodivergence one is talking about.

The terms neurodivergent and neurodivergence were coined in the year 2000 by Kassiane Asasumasu, a multiply neurodivergent neurodiversity activist.

What It Doesn’t Mean:
Neurodivergent is not a synonym for autistic. There are countless possible ways to be neurodivergent, and being autistic is only one of those ways. There are myriad ways of being neurodivergent that have no resemblance or connection to autism whatsoever. Never, ever use neurodivergent as a euphemism for autistic. If you mean that someone is autistic, say they’re autistic. It’s not a dirty word.

---

NEUROTYPICAL, or NT
What It Means:
Neurotypical, often abbreviated as NT, means having a style of neurocognitive functioning that falls within the dominant societal standards of “normal.”

Neurotypical can be used as either an adjective (“He’s neurotypical”) or a noun (“He’s a neurotypical”).

Neurotypical is the opposite of neurodivergent. Neurotypicality is the way-of-being from which neurodivergent people diverge. Neurotypical bears the same sort of relationship to neurodivergent that straight bears to queer.

What It Doesn’t Mean:
Neurotypical is not synonymous with non-autistic.

Neurotypical is the opposite of neurodivergent, not the opposite of autistic. Autism is only one of many forms of neurodivergence, so there are many, many people who are neither neurotypical nor autistic. Using neurotypical to mean non-autistic is like using “white” to mean “not black.”

Also, neurotypical is not a derogatory word, and has no intrinsic negative connotation. Of course, sometimes people use the word in the context of criticizing the behavior of neurotypicals, but that doesn’t make it an intrinsically negative word. A lot of people criticize the behavior of men, too, but that doesn’t make “man” an intrinsically derogatory word.

---

NEUROMINORITY
What It Means:
A neurominority is a population of neurodivergent people about whom all of the following are true:

1.) They all share a similar form of neurodivergence.

2.) The form of neurodivergence they share is one of those forms that is largely innate and that is inseparable from who they are, constituting an intrinsic and pervasive factor in their psyches, personalities, and fundamental ways of relating to the world.

3.) The form of neurodivergence they share is one to which the neurotypical majority tends to respond with some degree of prejudice, misunderstanding, discrimination, and/or oppression (generally facilitated by classifying that form of neurodivergence as a medical pathology).

Examples of neurominority groups include Autistic people, dyslexic people, and people with Down Syndrome.

It’s also possible to be neurodivergent without being a member of a neurominority group. Examples include people with acquired traumatic brain injuries, and people who have altered their own neurocognitive functioning through extensive use of psychedelic drugs.

The word neurominority can function as either a noun (as in, “Autistics are a neurominority”) or an adjective (as in, “Autistics are a neurominority group”).

NEURODIVERSE
What It Means:
A group of people is neurodiverse if one or more members of the group differ substantially from other members, in terms of their neurocognitive functioning.

Or, to phrase it another way, a neurodiverse group is a group in which multiple neurocognitive styles are represented.

Thus, a family, the faculty or student body of a school, the population of a town, or the cast of characters of a TV show would be neurodiverse if some members had different neurocognitive styles from other members – for instance, if some members were neurotypical while others were Autistic.

What It Doesn’t Mean:
Many people mistakenly use neurodiverse where the correct word would be neurodivergent.

Of all the errors that people make in writing and speaking about neurodiversity, the misuse of neurodiverse to mean neurodivergent is by far the most common.

There is no such thing as a “neurodiverse individual.” The correct term is “neurodivergent individual.” An individual can diverge, but an individual cannot be diverse.

Neurodiverse does not mean “non-neurotypical.” The opposite of neurotypical is neurodivergent, not neurodiverse. Neurodiverse cannot be used to mean “non-neurotypical,” because neurotypical people, like all other human beings, are part of the spectrum of human neurodiversity. The opposite of neurodiverse would be neurohomogenous (meaning “composed of people who are all neurocognitively similar to one another”).

To refer to neurominority groups or neurodivergent individuals as “neurodiverse” is incorrect grammatically, because diverse doesn’t mean different from the majority, it means made up of multiple different types. So an individual can never be diverse, by definition. And a group where everyone is neurodivergent in more or less the same way (e.g., a group composed entirely of Autistic people) wouldn’t be “neurodiverse,” either.

The only appropriate and grammatically correct use of the term neurodiverse is when it’s used to describe a group of people whose members differ neurocognitively from each other. In other words, a classroom where everyone is Autistic is not neurodiverse, but a classroom where some students are neurotypical and some aren’t is neurodiverse.

Humanity is neurodiverse, just as humanity is racially, ethnically, and culturally diverse. By definition, no human being falls outside of the spectrum of human neurodiversity, just as no human being falls outside of the spectrum of human racial, ethnic, and cultural diversity.

In addition to being incorrect, it’s also oppressive to misuse the word “diverse” to mean “minority,” because this misuse of “diverse” is based in the intrinsically oppressive assumption that there’s a default “normal” way of being and that “diversity” is about adding non-normative individuals into the “normal” default environment. This is the assumption that allows tokenization to pass for “diversity” in corporations, schools, and other social institutions.

We can see this same oppressive misuse of the word “diverse” in the discourse of racists who use the term “diverse” as a euphemism for “non-white.” This usage seeks to twist the definition of the word “diverse” to mean “not part of the privileged in-group.” Again, that’s not what the word means, and misusing it in that particular way serves to reinforce a racist mindset in which white people are seen as intrinsically separate from the rest of humanity, rather than as just another part of the spectrum of human ethnic diversity.

It is the same with the misuse of the term neurodiverse to mean “non-neurotypical.” To describe an Autistic, dyslexic, or otherwise neurodivergent person as a “neurodiverse individual” is not merely an incorrect usage of the word “diverse”––it also serves to reinforce an ableist mindset in which neurotypical people are seen as intrinsically separate from the rest of humanity, rather than as just another part of the spectrum of human neurodiversity.

In summary, then: misusing the term neurodiverse to mean neurodivergent (i.e., non-neurotypical) is not only plain old bad grammar, it also subtly reinforces ableism and undercuts the fundamental tenets of the neurodiversity paradigm. I hope this explanation will help people to avoid this particular error in the future­­––and, when possible, to correct such misuse where they encounter it.


1 -- ADHD is a medical label. Though it's actually a misnomer.
Outside the medical label, it is sometimes refer as 'kinetic type/style'.

2 -- Based on the definition above;
Schizophrenia as a medical label is a disorder. And it does affect one's way of living.

With term Neurodiversity; it is included as it is a biological fact, disorder or not.
In the Neurodiversity Paradigm; it is included whether or not it is believed to be a disorder -- because it is under diversity.
In the Neurodiversity Movement; I hadn't seen one yet to be honest; let's assume that in the inclusive interpretation -- it's not a disorder, and in exclusive interpretation -- it's a disorder.
Schizophrenia is under the umbrella of Neurodivergence.
Schizophrenia is technically under Neurodiverse, may or may not be a Neurominority.


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For me, language itself is a headache.


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25 Feb 2024, 8:38 am

carlos55 wrote:
Many schizophrenics had small incidents of psychosis in their childhood before the full blown condition happened, many disorders are there at birth but take a while to come out.

I would add that Schizophrenics have their own ND movement where they too sugar coat the condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_V ... 20lifetime)%20and%20significant.

Some key points:

Quote:
The position of the hearing voices movement can be summarised as follows:[20][30]

Hearing voices is not in itself a sign of mental illness.
Hearing voices is part of the diversity of being a human, it is a faculty that is common (3-10% of the population will hear a voice or voices in their lifetime) and significant.
Hearing voices is experienced by many people who do not have symptoms that would lead to diagnosis of mental illness
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Quote:
The international Hearing Voices Movement is a prominent mental health service-user/survivor movement that promotes the needs and perspectives of experts by experience in the phenomenon of hearing voices (auditory verbal hallucinations). The main tenet of the Hearing Voices Movement is the notion that hearing voices is a meaningful human experience.[


Quote:
The Hearing Voices Movement regards itself and is regarded by others as being a post-psychiatric organisation.[14][15][16] It positions itself outside of the mental health world in recognition that voices are an aspect of human difference, rather than a mental health problem.



Where have we heard all this before :roll: :lol:

So it looks like we are not alone in having these type of people in our community that reject logic & science

This whole thing is rather triggering, but really needs to be said. Sorry, not sorry.

Please do some actual research, or ask some of us that have actually had those issues, because this is just garbage. I have had all the diagnostic criteria met for nearly all the schizophrenia spectrum disorder diagnoses over the years, and this is an offensive correlation to make. Both, because most autistic people are able to manage to some degree in society, even if not at the level that our NT peers do, much of that is due to not knowing how to adapt things to ourselves in a way that minimizes the disadvantage. But, also, because there's nothing particularly mild about schizophrenia. The voices when they are there can be so loud as to make communication or attention impossible to maintain, and having to just act on faith that there are no monsters around you, and analyze everything that you're believing to see if it's reasonable or not is a lot of work.

I've also had the pleasure of talking with a schizophrenic that was mid psychotic episode and to a limited extent, I do see the point that he was a lot more in touch with reality than one might imagine. But, it was also a very dysfunctional and problematic way of experiencing the world and I doubt that he wouldn't have taken an effective treatment to make the psychosis go away, or at least be more manageable as the disorder pretty much destroys everything it touches. If you know what it is, then you can adjust a bit, but it's still tantamount to trying to run a time trial on a rocking boat while everybody else gets to do theirs on solid ground.

This whole bit of sugarcoating autism is also pretty offensive, you've got a different experience of it, I get it, but for the a significant chunk of the population, and arguably the most overlooked and under supported portion, that's just how it is for us. We can't get any sort of recognition or support because we're "not autistic" enough, and we're "not autistic enough" because there's a bunch of hardliners that absolutely insist that it's the autism that's the problem, rather than just certain traits or comorbidities. There is no legitimate reason why that position needs to be taken and for it to come from people who got their diagnosis and have at least some hope of support is rather problematic. Some of us have to fight to get a diagnosis and go through years of inappropriate medical treatment because we don't fit the stereotype.

EDIT: And BTW, while autism may be king in terms of terrible employment numbers, psychotic disorders are king when it comes to self murdering. That may improve slightly by destigmatizing it, but it's still just an absolutely horrible way of going through life and I feel extremely grateful that I just have the inconveniences of autism that can be managed, versus the ones with schizophrenia that are far harder to cope iwth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7721561/



blitzkrieg
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25 Feb 2024, 8:50 am

The statistics for autistic employment should convince anyone that autistic spectrum disorder is indeed a disorder.

Something like half of autistic folk need support and the other half probably struggle in varying degrees with operating in an NT world.

In the UK, the National Autistic Society sampled a large autistic population, a few years ago, with a few thousand people I think and found that 68% were unemployed, and that 16% each were either in part time or full time paid work.

Autism, more than other disabilities as a whole, is a barrier to employment. A person could argue that that is because of discrimination/a lack of understanding by employers, but regardless, the autistic population struggles deeply.



Last edited by blitzkrieg on 25 Feb 2024, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.