Page 2 of 3 [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

04 Sep 2024, 8:18 pm

Ah yeah, it doesn't have to be war trauma specifically, any kind if trauma severe enough to make an epigenetic change in the body will do.

Sorry for any confusion, my other thread with the poll is talking about war trauma specifically, that was because this topic made me wonder just how many of us had parents or grandparents etc who fought in wars. But for this thread, it doesn't have to be caused by war per se.



MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

06 Sep 2024, 8:43 am

Actually, I'm seeing quite a few papers mentioning maternal stress or illness during pregnancy as being linked to autism in the baby.

So we could be talking trauma related to domestic violence, injury or illness, losing ones home, being fired from a job, or various highly stressful life circumstances faced with insufficient support.



IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

06 Sep 2024, 9:03 am

My mum was autistic herself without any support and with my paternal grandmother living next door, bullying her and refusing to help with my toddler brother in any way. I don’t know what that was all about but we all know how stressful it is to be an autistic parent. Maybe the high stress of maternal autism puts the developing baby at a disadvantage, on top of the fact autism can be genetic.

I was highly stressed during my pregnancy with my second baby, but no so much my first. They’re both on the spectrum.


_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles


Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,570
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

06 Sep 2024, 11:05 am

Eh.

My parents were the types that ended up being breadwinners to their siblings for being older than them.


Let's see... My family, both sides, do not have war stories to tell. Nor they have religious complexes. Nor are the impossibly high standards super achievers. Nor the toxic conformism and imagery.

These are just common household issues within the culture I grew up into.
And so far, nothing like that had passed onto them.

The common household issues both sides of my family is particularly related to scarcity -- things related to financial issues, and somehow something to do with opportunism.


The worst bits either of my sides of the family I have is alcoholism, ignorance (which is strange -- they have the acceptance but not the knowledge nor understanding), and violence.
No rape, no complicated mind games, no suicide, no disowning...

Shame doesn't seem to be too strong, but there are some fear, some guilt and a lot of anger...


I'm not sure where all that anger came from exactly.
But I can assume it's from said financial and opportunistic issues, and overall helplessness; thus the acceptance and openness, yet the lack of understanding and navigation through whatever needed to overcome such.


But if all that anger came from the seemingly limited mindsets -- then where did said mindsets came from?
What kind of trials precisely? I'm not sure.


Yet still.
If the hypothesis is true, then I'm the first (those who are before me have ND tendencies from families that married to either sides of my family -- in which people that are not related to me but has stronger tendencies to give ND descendants that are related to me by whatever degree) and whatever future kids I, my sister or cousins may have are likelier to be autistic...

... And if it's not true, then I'm an anomaly. Full stop.
Another factor and statistical causation to cross out from the list of candidates of 'where did my autism came from?'


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

06 Sep 2024, 8:00 pm

well, there are a few ways that people get autism:

One is where there are genes for autism in the family, so they have a high polygenic risk. Usually something environmental or epigenetic has to turn on enough of those genes for the person to be autistic. Many of us here can see autistic traits running through our families, so this would be our situation.

Another way is that the person has a genetic syndrome, like Downs or Fragile X or Rett syndrome, which causes all kinds of difficulties along with autism.

But another way is that a person could have a 'de novo' gene mutation which causes autism. I think it's not as common as polygenic autism. In this case, you might be the only person in your family with autism, you might not see autistic traits in anyone else, it seems to come out of the blue.

The last kind is more likely if your parents were older when you were born, as there is more time for mutations to occur. Or sometimes it's related to the maternal grandmother when she was pregnant - as a mutation can occur affecting only the ova of her fetus (which then becomes you).

I didn't go into that much detail in the original post, just trying to keep things simple. Which of course, never really works because if there is one thing we can all say about autism etiology, it is never simple.



Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,570
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

06 Sep 2024, 9:13 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
well, there are a few ways that people get autism:

One is where there are genes for autism in the family, so they have a high polygenic risk. Usually something environmental or epigenetic has to turn on enough of those genes for the person to be autistic. Many of us here can see autistic traits running through our families, so this would be our situation.

Another way is that the person has a genetic syndrome, like Downs or Fragile X or Rett syndrome, which causes all kinds of difficulties along with autism.

This type isn't my case at all for as long as I can remember.
The traits in me I see in them and relate to got nothing to do with my autism, whether good or bad.

I don't even remember meeting any relatives that has said genetic conditions.
Quote:
But another way is that a person could have a 'de novo' gene mutation which causes autism. I think it's not as common as polygenic autism. In this case, you might be the only person in your family with autism, you might not see autistic traits in anyone else, it seems to come out of the blue.

The last kind is more likely if your parents were older when you were born, as there is more time for mutations to occur. Or sometimes it's related to the maternal grandmother when she was pregnant - as a mutation can occur affecting only the ova of her fetus (which then becomes you).

I've already seen the pre-natal and post-natal factors. If anything, the stats determined that it's my (younger NT) sister who should've been the autistic (not only with older parents, but also more factors like being premature, complicated delivery, more household stressors and other external things, etc.) instead of me, the first born, that has none of those factors.

In some studies apparently, second borns have an even higher chance of autism.
Both my parents are second borns.
So is both of my grandfathers.
So is my sister is. She's an NT. I'm not. This makes my own sister an anomaly herself to some extent.

Going further to my sides of my grandparents and great grandparents respective paternal and maternal ages -- all of them are the eldest and third eldest the latest birth order amongst their respective 5-14 siblings

All of which involved age gaps between 5-20+ years age gap between them and their respective youngest siblings.

None of them are autistic.
Including those whatever generation of aunts and uncles who are conceived way, way later than my direct ancestors.

The aunts and uncles I have through all of them can have ND-prone spouses (those who are not blood related to me) married into the family and tend to have ND-like descendants.
If they aren't, they really don't.

But that's just ND-like, not even specifically autistic.

If this case is true, then I am an even bigger statistical anomaly.

And if they're NDs, they ain't maskers. Like me. Anyone who's diagnosed, whatever condition it might be, is very much out in the open within the household, reunions, and group chats...

Apparently, ND deniers don't exactly run within my family -- thus no 'hidden NDs in the attic' whatever that is.
Nor are the types that shoves the label into said ND's faces.


:lol: Maybe with all said statistical anomaly, like my life so far -- is inversed, works backwards, or whatever.
Thus my sister got lucky -- and so am I. :lol:


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

26 Sep 2024, 6:49 am

here is an article about transgenerational epigenetics

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190326-what-is-epigenetics



notboston
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

Joined: 18 Jun 2024
Gender: Male
Posts: 22
Location: Illinois

27 Sep 2024, 10:06 am

Generational trauma isn’t real. Trauma from abuse is.

People who experience trauma and end up having kids with ASD may have just started a family too late. After maternal age 34 the probability of conditions like ASD shoot up.

So, if you were a refugee or had a troubled childhood, you might end up being stunted or starting a family later than the norm or optimum.

But the concept that people can co-opt the imagined trauma of their forebears like it’s a disease seems like learned helplessness manifest. It would deeply offend me if someone called into work due to generational trauma.



carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,919

27 Sep 2024, 1:33 pm

If you want to feel really old right now, just remember you started life in your maternal grandmothers womb.

Baby girls are born with all the eggs they will ever have and that includes what made you. It does scramble the mind,

I'm still trying to figure out if that makes me as old as my grandmother or mother, if my DNA is 100 years old or not? 8O

https://spotlight.leeds.ac.uk/research- ... index.html

https://www.smallacorn.co.uk/funfactfri ... hers-womb/


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

28 Sep 2024, 5:05 am

Quote:
Generational trauma isn’t real.


You seem very certain of that. How can you be sure?

To clarify, I'm not saying people can inherit PTSD. It's more about inheriting epigentic changes that get switched on by PTSD.



Edna3362
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,570
Location: ᜆᜄᜎᜓᜄ᜔

30 Sep 2024, 7:58 am

notboston wrote:
Generational trauma isn’t real. Trauma from abuse is.

I disagree. It exists.
One of the common term for it is sometimes called 'a family curse'.

To understand generational trauma is not limited to looking back at your own life; but also your parents', their parents, and everyone succeeded before them.

And it's not necessarily coming from abuse -- most of it are coming from parents reacting to certain systems and beliefs, certain situations, the way they're socialized, the things they're exposed to -- whether it's an oppressive system, being in a warzone, etc.

It's more like interferences and indoctrination; attitudes and beliefs, therefore behaviors and reactions passed from parent to child (or the child, thinks they don't like it, would swing the pendulum in another direction yet just as unpleasant and pass that into their child).

Yes, it can very much just looked like passing bad habits into the next generation; this includes being liable to abusive relationships or being abusive, developing mental illness and personality disorders.

Some are really just stupid fricking echoes from the damnable past whether or not someone inherited it through genes.

And some are so ingrained that it's baked into one's DNA; whether they're super vulnerable and the environment can very much be the trigger...


Basically, generational trauma is like any other thoughts -- it has it's own self preservation to pass onto the next generation, the same way as with survival of the 'good enough' being able to copulate.


It's not as simple as getting trauma and then starting a family too late.
And it's not as overt like calling off to work because of generational trauma -- oh, no, that missed the mark big time, lol.

The generational trauma isn't the freaking out because your dad freaks out a lot when you're a kid.

Generational trauma is being very avoidant on things like work and socializing because your dad shames you for being seen, because your dad was too avoidant and wants to be seen, because his dad was shamed for being seen and is envious of their kids, because his mom is a overbearing helicopter parent who coddled him, because her mom wasn't there enough and died too young, because her dad is a toxic church militant and wanted a son, because his mom is a righteous zealot and expects the best, because her mom is praised to be a good girl and an epitome of trad wife, because her dad is a super fundamentalist and was hailed as an elite with high standards, because his father fought war and the only way out of a miserable life is to be at the top, because his mother was a helpless coward and was abused by her in laws, because her dad basically sold her as a child bride, because -- because -- :roll: Who knows until the end (or the very beginning) of the human timeframe.

I apologize for being so flippant over said circumstances, but it's to make a point...


_________________
Gained Number Post Count (1).
Lose Time (n).

Lose more time here - Updates at least once a week.


JamesW
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jan 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 336

30 Sep 2024, 10:09 am

This is only my personal view. I don't care where my autism comes from. All I care about is that I am autistic.

Reason: I'm also an alcoholic. Like millions of alcoholics have done before me, all I need to do is find a reason for my alcoholism in order to justify drinking myself to death. Instead I'm 31 years sober.



MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

10 Oct 2024, 6:47 pm

Gah, I just wrote a reply and my internet crashed and I lost it...

Trying to remember what I was saying, I can see that knowing the reason behind a problematic personal behaviour might be used as an excuse to continue that behaviour.

But I'm thinking more on a societal level. If, hypothetically, trauma in one generation was related to increased autism in the following generations, it might help draw attention to the amout of trauma in modern society and do some good. And I think it is better to understand the reasons for things, knowledge is power. :nerdy:

Plus, I'm just curious.



carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,919

11 Oct 2024, 7:04 am

MrsPeel wrote:
Gah, I just wrote a reply and my internet crashed and I lost it...

Trying to remember what I was saying, I can see that knowing the reason behind a problematic personal behaviour might be used as an excuse to continue that behaviour.

But I'm thinking more on a societal level. If, hypothetically, trauma in one generation was related to increased autism in the following generations, it might help draw attention to the amout of trauma in modern society and do some good. And I think it is better to understand the reasons for things, knowledge is power. :nerdy:

Plus, I'm just curious.


Hypothetically if such a thing were true it would encourage more humanitarian behaviour.

The knowledge that causing things such as war , refugees etc.. leads to problems for future generations, may lead to national leaders thinking twice or at least shame such behaviour more.


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


MrsPeel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Oct 2017
Age: 53
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,827
Location: Australia

03 Nov 2024, 2:37 am

Yes, and I have the feeling that epigenetics will tell us a lot more about autism than genetic studies have done. Genetic studies have shown us that there are many hundreds of genes which create a polygenic risk - but genetic risk alone does not cause autism. There have to be some environmental factors which act epigenetically to turn those autism genes on. And that probably occurs prior to birth.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,870
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

03 Nov 2024, 3:13 am

MrsPeel wrote:
I'm putting this here as any hypothesising on autism causes tends to be a bit political.

If you look at the timeline of the history of autism, there was a peak in autism studies in the 1940s (Kanner & Asperger) and again in the 1960s, then a rising wave of autism diagnoses from around the 1990s on.

Nowadays we understand that autism is mostly inherited through our genes, but there is a significant environmental component. And we know that environmental stresses can produce epigentic effects - that is, changes to the functioning of genes which are triggered by the environment but can also be passed down or inherited through the generations.

Science has shown that PTSD can cause epigenetic effects. So, is it a coincidence that the first peak of autism in the 1940s arose a generation after World War 1, or is there a connection? And could the 1960s peak be related to WWII?

Studies have also shown that autism prevalence is higher in the children of immigrant mothers (of any origin). Why would this occur, unless there was some link to maternal stress (either stress in the home country driving them to migrate, or the stress of moving to another country)?

My hypothesis is that parental or grandparental stress and trauma makes epigenetic changes which can "switch on" autism-related genes in their descendants.

I'm not the only one thinking this way. Here is an article considering the very high prevalence of autism in Northern Ireland (which is more than double that in the UK generally):
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-neurodivergent-therapist/202201/autism-and-northern-ireland#:~:text=Northern%20Ireland%20has%20often%20been,Autism%20Spectrum%20Disorder%20(ASD).

What are your thoughts?


Well I have PTSD and autism, and Idk sometimes I wonder if having autism made me more prone to trauma, cause I feel I can kind of separate what is from autism and what is from PTSD, for sure though it does suck to have autism and PTSD I would not really wish it on anyone even my worst enemy because well like I said it sucks to have both of those at the same time. But also there is no for sure cure for PTSD like you can for sure get to a point you can manage it, but like it will always be there, it never goes away.

I mean really even without the autism I wouldn't want someone else to have PTSD because it is for sure a hell like it sucks like even litterally at times like it sucks your engergy out, it wont let you sleep right, it wont let you eat right it wont let you live right PTSD sucks. And on top of autism and PTSD I might have adhd as well I am getting an assessment for that in a few weeks. But I already have Autism, chronic depression, regular anxiety, social anxiety, every kind of anxiety and potentially dependent PD and avoidant PD as well or at least or features of those two personality disorders. Idk I feel like a mess lol. Also I forgot to say I also can't do math either and the neurologist who confirmed I could have autism also found at least she figured I also had a learning disability when it comes to math, which would explain why no amount of extra help or studying helped me to learn math.

seriously though PTSD is no good try not to acquire it...lol like if you do have something traumatic happen get into therapy and try to work through it ASAP because also with experiencing a trauma if you get help right away and talk to a therpaist and all that can reduce the risks of it developing into PTSD. You could get lucky with acute trauma disorder which can be prevented from becoming PTSD if you get help right away, but in my case I was not able to get the kind of help or support I needed so unfortunately my traumatic experience did develop into PTSD and yeah you really can't get rid of it. Thats why the abbreviation means post traumatic stress disorder, cause like the stress already happened but your neurology won't let you let go of it.


_________________
We won't go back.