Guardian article on pointing & autism

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2010/ ... s-pointing

Philosopher Raymond Tallis insinuates that autistics aren't fully human, as follows:
1. no other animal, including pointers (dogs) and chimps, can use pointing fully
2. pointing is one of the attributes that mark us out as human beings with a sense of ourselves and others in a shared space
3. in autistic children there is often an absence of pointing.

Keep in mind that autism wasn't even the point of his talk. As far as I can tell, it was a gratuitous reference. When is this sort of thing going to stop being acceptable?

And BTW, from what I've read, #3 isn't even true.

I point.

Philosphers and religious leaders said the same thing about African Americans in early America and look how wrong they were.

Philosopher Raymond Tallis needs to look in the mirror and point to himself and say @$$hole.

It'll end as soon as autism is no longer defined, theorized about, and explained solely by non-autistic people.

Unfortunately, even many autistics are unable to defy authority and the comfort of 'certainty' enough to really reflect on how the theories and such may be wrong. In a way the worst thing to happen to autism was AS being put in the DSM. Before then people had to compare notes and think, rather than appealing to a bunch of NT written criteria and theories. It's like "women's magazine" articles that purport to explain male thinking (and are usually wrong). Or vice versa.

Can't speak for autistic people who can't speak for themselves? -- well, then someone else, those same experts, will then do it in your place.


-A (having a bad day and in a very foul mood)

I think Tallis is talking about a developmental stage that may be different in autistic children. Pointing in babies and children indicates 'shared attention' where the child is aware of other people's attention and is making it coincide with their own. Aspie adults who point doesn't disprove his point ('scuse the pun).



Damn right.

I hate it when people search for something that is unique to human beings in order to set us apart from the other animals. Yes, we're different. No, you probably couldn't find a single thing present in humans and not in animals. It's more complicated than that, and implying that autistic people lack a 'defining human quality' is a counter-example to the definition. This is woolly thinking from someone who is meant to be trained in thinking.

I feel like people who don't see people with autism as human usually commit major logical fallacies. Anyone else noticed this?

@Dr.S: Actually, I recently read a study on joint attention recently that said that autistic children aren't delayed in pointing, only in initiating or following joint attention (i.e., following someone else's gaze to an object and looking back at them for a reaction, or having someone else follow their gaze). If this study is right, then Raymond Tallis doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If p then q.
Not p.
Therefore, not q.

This is a logical fallacy. Let me illustrate.
If we are in Africa (p), then we are on Earth (q).
We are not in Africa (not p).
Therefore, we are not on Earth (not q).

Yes, if p then q does have a converse:
If p then q.
Not q.
Therefore, not p.

It's possible he didn't make a logical error. It's possible he instead structures his argument such that:
If an animal is human (p), then it is proficient in shared attention as exemplified by pointing (q).
Autistics are delayed in q.
Therefore, not p.

That would be wrong, but valid.

Whatever; it's still false.

It was a boring article too.
Why did he feel the need, after arguing that it is an attribute that marks us out as human beings and then say that "in autistic children is often an absence of pointing?".
I feel tempted to e-mail the editor and ask why she would allow such rubbish. Pointing.

Every baby I've known except my three and a half year son has pointed since they were about one. Its the lacking of the joint attention thing.

Excellent idea. I too am disgusted at the suggestion that autistic children aren't human. We should all lodge a complaint. I've looked up the email address, send your complaints to:

[email protected]

Great idea.

Alternatively you can use the email address below if you want your response to be published.

[email protected]

I'm done.

Put a link to this discussion in you emails!

I have just done one of the classic searchs of the serious literature on Raymond Tallis, he has published about 170 papers but none of them have the words "autism", "aspergers" or "pointing" in their titles.

Maybe I misformulated the search but so far I have not found anything which this man has written on the subject of AS or pointing. I think that maybe he does not have a point in what he said !

He has published a couple of papers on valproate. I recall reading that prenatal exposure to valproate can do things to the brain of the fetus. But I do not think that it is a great contribution to the world.

It is interesting that LabPet has done some work on okadaic acid which does the opposite to Valproate. She found it did something interesting, I do not know the details of what it does.

Some autistic don't point much. It has to do with the theory of mind. The kid assumes everyone else knows about whatever he's pointing at, so he doesn't bother.

But whoever wrote this is horrible.