Sociopaths and Aspies
26 Aug 2011, 8:52 pm
Interesting artice about how to spot a sociopath.
http://www.sociopathworld.com/2010/12/s ... efore.html
How many of these traits could be used to describe Aspies?
Sociopath test: How to spot them before they target you
Everyone wants to know how to identify a sociopath, it's one of the most frequently asked questions I get. The problem is that no one has discovered a definitive means of identifying them, even in a clinical setting with trained psychologists, even with a brain scanner. For the average layperson, the advice for spotting a sociopath is as varied and unreliable as "evil eyes," social parasite/criminal, and (my favorite for being both too specific and overbroad) Martha's Stout's "pity play" litmus test. I had hoped that there would be physical manifestations of sociopathy, but the results, while suggestive of potential promising areas of follow-up (why don't sociopaths take cold medicine?), were far from scientific or conclusive. Still, from my own personal experience with sociopaths, I believe that there are some easily observable behaviors or traits that correlate relatively well with sociopathy. I came up with 12.
1. Sociopaths typically don't smalltalk about themselves as much as normal people do. They will direct the conversation back to the new acquaintance as much as they can.
2. A sociopath will reveal "personal" details about himself strategically, i.e. for the purposes of misdirection or a false sense of intimacy/trust. Revelations of actual truths are very rare and may be perceived as a small slip of the mask.
3. Sociopaths frequently hesitate before responding. It will be unclear to you whether they are bored, annoyed, lying, or all three.
4. No strong reactions to illogical hotbed political/social topics (e.g. Octomom or Catholic priest child molestation).
5. Monotone voice (I am told).
6. A tendency to take things too literally or otherwise not respond appropriately to small emotional cues.
7. Cold indifference to one or more family members.
8. Seemingly a different person when "distracted."
9. Disconnect between what the sociopath says and does, e.g. seems charitable but does not give money to homeless or vice versa.
10. Never shows signs of embarrassment. Easily wins over large crowds with confidence. "Poise" in this case = lack of nerves.
11. Does not fit stereotypes for gender, race, ethnicity, religion, age, sexual orientation, or career. Could seem foreign, bisexual, older or younger, pious, wealthy or poor, but may also just seem unplaceable.
12. Can flip flop between keeping a very low profile (the observer) to being the life of the party (the actor).
I don't think all of these would apply to all sociopaths, and certainly many of them apply to people who aren't sociopaths, however they all have the advantage of being directly observable by a layperson, at least without the aid of a brain scan or 10 page questionnaire. Also, because they're seemingly inconsequential and not directly related to the classic sociopath/antisocial traits, a sociopath would have less reason to mask them.
Do some of these seem particularly predictive or not? Any other
Mindslave
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26 Aug 2011, 9:08 pm
I know how to spot sociopaths. The only way to do it is to not try to do it. Sociopaths are the masters of psychology, so being proactive in any way will tip your hand, and they will manipulate the situation to their favor. They don't do this consciously, they do it instinctively. It's like if you hit a crosscourt ball to Andy Murray's backhand side, he will crush it instinctively, because that's what he does. He doesn't have to think about it, he's Andy Murray. The last sociopath I met was at district court. He was the guy who came after me and explained his speeding ticket. Some excuse about the car tires and the motor or something, and the way he jumped from one lie to the next was great. The judge wasn't buying it, yet he still kept going and going, and most importantly, he knew when to stop. He took it as far as he could, but stopped at just the right time. The proof (for me anyway) is that I bought his line of B.S. up until the end, then once I walked out of there I realized what he was. That's a BIG test (for me it is. I know how I react to these people since I've met so many of them) Sure enough, when he was in line to pay for the ticket, he was reminiscing to the lawyer guy he was with, talking about how great he was, yada yada. I knew that if he was a sociopath, he would strike up a conversation with me at one point or another, and sure enough, he did. Just as I thought, he tried (in his mind at least) to bring me around to his side of things, his way of viewing the situation, by buttering me up with something about my high school and a teacher I had.
So just to clarify, the only way to spot a sociopath is to be scientific about it, i.e. never go into 100% certainty. If you think like that, you will get confused. This is why nobody has discovered a definitive means of identifying them, because you CAN'T THINK LIKE THAT. The minute you think you know they are a sociopath, that's when you will start questioning what you think you know, and that really messes with your head. You HAVE to stay grounded. I've had this happen to me, and it's not fun. It's a very dangerous game.
26 Aug 2011, 9:30 pm
Another indicator
http://thetoptwoinches.wordpress.com/20 ... predators/
Watch for the pity play.
According to Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door, the best clue that you are dealing with a sociopath is an appeal to your sympathy. If you’re dealing with someone who tries to make you feel sorry for him or her, blaming other people or “the system” for his or her problems, consider it a warning that the person may be a sociopath. For more information, see The Pity Play on Lovefraud.com.
Last edited by ProudAspie on 26 Aug 2011, 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fatal-Noogie
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26 Aug 2011, 9:31 pm
What is this!? some kind of witch hunt?
"oh goodness gracious! ... Don't look now, but your neighbor is acting strange. He might be a sociopath!"
I've heard this reasoning before, albeit with different set of criteria.
Remember when they told us "how to spot a terrorist"? Remember what that led to?
Racism, xenophobia, prejudice, paranoia, people living in fear and ratting each other out.
Now you're telling us we have to fear those who behave different from us?
Whatever happened to tolerance and understanding? What happened to "live and let live"?
Stop spreading fear and hate.
It just might come back to bite you in the ass.
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26 Aug 2011, 9:51 pm
Can you please elaborate on that comment?
I'm saying what goes around comes around.
If you encourage fear, others might also treat you with fear.
If you encourage others to look for danger, they're going to see it, whether it's actually there or not.
It's hard to find anyone who doesn't fit some of the criteria you listed.
Does that mean we should treat everyone with fear and hostility as if they are sociopaths?
Call me quaint, but I believe in showing respect for fellow human beings
regardless of how strange or normal their mannerisms and personality traits may seem to me.
Even if you can prove that there's a correlation between these personality traits and ... "sociopaths",
it's still unfair to discriminate based on that,
for the same reason you can't hold up a crime statistic for a certain race
and then say it's fair to discriminate against them.
I try not to make paranoia my hobby because I don't want to
look at the world with eyes that are trained to see only enemies.
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26 Aug 2011, 10:34 pm
There are actually different types of sociopaths/psychopaths.
Some happen to take pleasure in hurting people, or act without due regard for people, but others may view hurting another as detrimental to their goals in life, or have an innate sense of conscienciousness.
The thing that makes all of these individuals sociopaths/psychopaths is that when they look at people or other sentient beings, most of the activity in their brain is localized to their vision processing centers, indicating they literally view people and other sentient beings much as they would view a car, or a pencil, or some other type of non-sentient object.
In their view, people are machines, which, when you say and do the right things to, you get the "machine" to do what you want.
That being said, their relationships with others typically boil down to power. They use people to acquire resources, power to influence others to place themselves in certain positions in life, or means to present an image to again help themselves get into certain positions in life or obtain certain material things or sex.
They don't actually get lonely, but they do get board, and so other people might also serve as sources of entertainment for them.
Many sociopaths/psychopaths are actually very charismatic and know how to "operate their machines".
People with AS, on the other hand, usually do not perceive other people or sentient beings as only objects. They can feel remorse for their actions for the same reasons and in the same ways NTs do (sociopaths/psychopaths don't feel remorse for their actions, or only rarely do anyway, and frequently only for self serving reasons). People with AS are typically not charismatic, and if people were indeed machines, would be horribly inept at operating them. People with AS get lonely and usually crave the same emotional attachments that NTs do.
So people with AS, and sociopaths/psychopaths are actually quite different.
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26 Aug 2011, 10:50 pm
Some happen to take pleasure in hurting people, or act without due regard for people, but others may view hurting another as detrimental to their goals in life, or have an innate sense of conscienciousness.
The thing that makes all of these individuals sociopaths/psychopaths is that when they look at people or other sentient beings, most of the activity in their brain is localized to their vision processing centers, indicating they literally view people and other sentient beings much as they would view a car, or a pencil, or some other type of non-sentient object.
In their view, people are machines, which, when you say and do the right things to, you get the "machine" to do what you want.
That being said, their relationships with others typically boil down to power. They use people to acquire resources, power to influence others to place themselves in certain positions in life, or means to present an image to again help themselves get into certain positions in life or obtain certain material things or sex.
They don't actually get lonely, but they do get board, and so other people might also serve as sources of entertainment for them.
Many sociopaths/psychopaths are actually very charismatic and know how to "operate their machines".
People with AS, on the other hand, usually do not perceive other people or sentient beings as only objects. They can feel remorse for their actions for the same reasons and in the same ways NTs do (sociopaths/psychopaths don't feel remorse for their actions, or only rarely do anyway, and frequently only for self serving reasons). People with AS are typically not charismatic, and if people were indeed machines, would be horribly inept at operating them. People with AS get lonely and usually crave the same emotional attachments that NTs do.
So people with AS, and sociopaths/psychopaths are actually quite different.
Chronos is very insightful, as usual. The reason their relationships boil down to power is because they are deathly afraid of themselves. If you've ever met the parents of a sociopath, you will know why this is. Some of the different types might be influenced by having both parents be abusive, or having one parent that is abusive and the other parent is largely absent, which seems to be the most common. It seems to me that the reason they want so much sympathy is because most of their formative years were spent getting no sympathy whatsoever, so if that becomes the modus operandi of their upbringing, they will look for sympathy everywhere they can get it...but without the ability to trust people, it never amounts to anything more than taking advantage of people. It is next to impossible for these people to trust anyone. To use an extreme example, the only way a sociopathic sex criminal would trust someone is if the person in question did everything that was asked the exact way that it was intended, which is not only impossible to achieve since the sociopath usually can't explain what it is he/she (almost always he) wants, but pretty soon would include ridiculous scenarios like him wanting the victim to come over at 3 in the morning, and chances are pretty good that he will say "You didn't get here fast enough" and if you've ever tried to reason with someone in a really bad mood, imagine that times 10. So yeah, a cure? Pleh. It would be easier to get that penny in a bottle out without breaking the bottle.
26 Aug 2011, 10:55 pm
Some happen to take pleasure in hurting people, or act without due regard for people, but others may view hurting another as detrimental to their goals in life, or have an innate sense of conscienciousness.
The thing that makes all of these individuals sociopaths/psychopaths is that when they look at people or other sentient beings, most of the activity in their brain is localized to their vision processing centers, indicating they literally view people and other sentient beings much as they would view a car, or a pencil, or some other type of non-sentient object.
In their view, people are machines, which, when you say and do the right things to, you get the "machine" to do what you want.
That being said, their relationships with others typically boil down to power. They use people to acquire resources, power to influence others to place themselves in certain positions in life, or means to present an image to again help themselves get into certain positions in life or obtain certain material things or sex.
They don't actually get lonely, but they do get board, and so other people might also serve as sources of entertainment for them.
Many sociopaths/psychopaths are actually very charismatic and know how to "operate their machines".
People with AS, on the other hand, usually do not perceive other people or sentient beings as only objects. They can feel remorse for their actions for the same reasons and in the same ways NTs do (sociopaths/psychopaths don't feel remorse for their actions, or only rarely do anyway, and frequently only for self serving reasons). People with AS are typically not charismatic, and if people were indeed machines, would be horribly inept at operating them. People with AS get lonely and usually crave the same emotional attachments that NTs do.
So people with AS, and sociopaths/psychopaths are actually quite different.
Chronos is very insightful, as usual. The reason their relationships boil down to power is because they are deathly afraid of themselves. If you've ever met the parents of a sociopath, you will know why this is. Some of the different types might be influenced by having both parents be abusive, or having one parent that is abusive and the other parent is largely absent, which seems to be the most common. It seems to me that the reason they want so much sympathy is because most of their formative years were spent getting no sympathy whatsoever, so if that becomes the modus operandi of their upbringing, they will look for sympathy everywhere they can get it...but without the ability to trust people, it never amounts to anything more than taking advantage of people. It is next to impossible for these people to trust anyone. To use an extreme example, the only way a sociopathic sex criminal would trust someone is if the person in question did everything that was asked the exact way that it was intended, which is not only impossible to achieve since the sociopath usually can't explain what it is he/she (almost always he) wants, but pretty soon would include ridiculous scenarios like him wanting the victim to come over at 3 in the morning, and chances are pretty good that he will say "You didn't get here fast enough" and if you've ever tried to reason with someone in a really bad mood, imagine that times 10. So yeah, a cure? Pleh. It would be easier to get that penny in a bottle out without breaking the bottle.
It does however beg the question, given that Aspie and Sociopath traits are very similar, how many sociopaths have been misdiagnosed as Aspies and vice versa?
Something to ponder...........................................................
26 Aug 2011, 10:59 pm
I find this post very funny. I am not explaining why.
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26 Aug 2011, 11:00 pm
That's just a blog by an individual, who clearly states in the FAQ that his opinion is Aspies are sociopaths. Much of what he states like "monotone voice, as I'm told" is not a trait of sociopathology, instead specific to communication problems in Autism. He is attempting to tailor his traits to some of those associated with Autism. Like not engaging in small talk; that's total BS has nothing specifically to do with sociopathology.
Here is the DSMIV criteria for Sociopathy, it has little to do with this guy's opinion about Sociopaths on his blog. In fact the traits of Aspergers are almost polar opposite to the actual DSMIV criteria for Antisocial personality disorder which is the proper psychological term for a sociopath or a psychopath:
Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.
Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)
1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
D. Repeated assaults on others.
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.
2. At least eighteen years in age.
3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.
4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder
So lets look at A through G and compare them to Aspergers:
A: A trait of aspergers is to strictly enforce the rules, not break them.
B: It is considered hard for people with Aspergers to lie, they are often brutally honest.
C: People with Aspergers often have to have a plan before doing something as simple as going to the grocery store and normally will not deviate from it.
D: Rarely do people with Aspergers assault others they are more often the target of assaults.
E: Anxiety is often high among those that have Aspergers, they are normally the cautious ones in any group.
F: When people with Aspergers are employed they are often lauded for their loyalty and attention to detail in the work they do.
G: People with Aspergers do at times hurt other people's feelings without understanding they are doing it. It's not likely they would rationalize harm they don't understand they are doing.
If anything, Aspergers is the polar opposite of these traits. Certainly some individuals with Aspergers display some of these behaviors, but if they are accurately diagnosed with Aspergers, they would be displaying behavior of a disorder that is almost completely opposite to the diagnosis of Aspergers.
The most common definition of Sociopath is an individual without a conscience about others that are around them. They are the ones that at times torture animals and feel no remorse.
Lack of Empathy is seen as an issue with Autism, but a conscience about what is morally right and wrong in human interaction, is a trait that is strong in Aspergers, as opposed to Sociopathology.
Sociopaths feed on people with Aspergers. They are an easy mark for most sociopaths. What the guy is doing on the blog is indicative of what sociopaths do to people with Aspergers; make statements about them to attempt to harm their normally rigid moral character.
26 Aug 2011, 11:27 pm
damn i'm not gonna lie i've done a lot of those things. I called my dad the other day to hang out because I was bored, I have never done that before though. I also don't react to political or social news, I have but only in certain situations. I also don't trust a lot of people. I dont feel like this is bad though. Like I dont think I'm a bad person.
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26 Aug 2011, 11:35 pm
@ProudAspie
I made a mistake when I first read your post.
I didn't realize (until now) that most of your text was taken directly from the article.
I thought you used your own words used to review the article,
so when I read, "Everyone wants to know how to identify a sociopath,"
I thought you were implying that everyone on WrongPlanet should want to know how to identify a sociopath.
If that still is your thesis then I would still disagree,
but I see now that my anger at that particular quote was misdirected.
I'm sorry about that.
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27 Aug 2011, 12:33 am
The guy that authored the article stuck a bunch of Autism traits in his list that aren't related to sociopathology; anybody that reads his opinion is going to think of Aspergers immediately when they see the line about not liking small talk, and talking in a monotone voice.
That is not actually a list of traits specific to Sociopathology, the real ones are clearly listed in the DSMIV, it's just a guy's opinion; look up reliable sources on sociopathology if you are interested, that list is just the opinion of a guy's blog on the internet.
I'll put this in bold for anyone else that gives the list merit it doesn't deserve. It is not a real list of sociopathological traits, it's just a guys opinion on the internet, that clearly states that he thinks people with Aspergers are Sociopaths. Pay it no mind. I'm not sure if Proud Aspie realizes it or not, but if you look in the FAQ part of the authors blog, the author clearly has an agenda against people with Aspergers.
Anyone that has Aspergers that reads the list of traits and takes it seriously is going to think they are possibly a sociopath. Don't take the author's bait. Most people with Aspergers are good people, perhaps some confused with problems, but not bad people.
This is really a serious problem; there are people that come here at times playing the role of a sociopath with the intention of making people with Aspergers look like sociopath's.
People that view that, that don't understand Aspergers, gain an impression from it that people with Aspergers are sociopaths. The moderators do their best to keep up and ban people that do this, but some are quite clever in riding the razor edge not to get banned.
This is clearly the opinion the author is giving in the article, by mixing specific Aspergers traits in the list of traits he made up for sociopathology, a nearly polar opposite condition from Aspergers.
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