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Where do you stand on the issue?
pro-cure, I'm on the spectrum 14%  14%  [ 9 ]
anti-cure, I'm on the spectrum 61%  61%  [ 39 ]
pro-cure, I'm an NT parent of an ASD child 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
anti-cure, I'm a NT parent of an ASD child 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
other 23%  23%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 64

Gedrene
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13 Nov 2011, 11:20 am

ScientistOfSound wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
ScientistOfSound wrote:
I don't think a "cure" is possible. Even if there was a cure, I would refuse it because (in my head) theres nothing wrong with me. Its everybody else who has a problem, they're the corrupt ones who won't accept anything that is outside the familiar and mainstream. Cure me?! Bah. They are the ones who need cured of their ignorance!

Many mentally sick people use the same justification. Whilst I too like to think that I am not damaged (nothing is certain), may I hear the examples that helped you to reach your justification? Just as a reminder.

I deal with things by myself, don't need much help from other people. I feel relaxed, happy and positive on my own. My autism on its own doesn't cause me problems; and never has. I have an interesting thought for you, Gedrene.
Tony Attwood said, to cure an autistic child, place them in a room on their own, and close the door. Problem solved, because there are no people to judge them based on their symptoms.

My AS has helped me to achive amazing things. A couple of years ago, I started learning piano, and I got accepting onto a music course at college. Most keyboardists spend years playing before they get to GCSE/College course level, I only took a year to achive this. That was because it was my special interest, and without that intense focus I wouldn't have been able to do that. On top of that, it makes me unique, witty, funny, and an interesting individual. To say that I have a "problem" is ridiculous. It's always been other people, and the fact that they won't accept me. The world is designed for NT people, unfortunately. But that is what is disabling me, the actions of NT's and "normal" people. NT society needs to stop being snobby and realise that we're all the same, and adaptions should be made for everybody instead of trying to force us all into boring submission.

THnakyou, it's nice to have a definitive answer that has abasis in fact. :D



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13 Nov 2011, 11:27 am

Gedrene wrote:
ScientistOfSound wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
ScientistOfSound wrote:
I don't think a "cure" is possible. Even if there was a cure, I would refuse it because (in my head) theres nothing wrong with me. Its everybody else who has a problem, they're the corrupt ones who won't accept anything that is outside the familiar and mainstream. Cure me?! Bah. They are the ones who need cured of their ignorance!

Many mentally sick people use the same justification. Whilst I too like to think that I am not damaged (nothing is certain), may I hear the examples that helped you to reach your justification? Just as a reminder.

I deal with things by myself, don't need much help from other people. I feel relaxed, happy and positive on my own. My autism on its own doesn't cause me problems; and never has. I have an interesting thought for you, Gedrene.
Tony Attwood said, to cure an autistic child, place them in a room on their own, and close the door. Problem solved, because there are no people to judge them based on their symptoms.

My AS has helped me to achive amazing things. A couple of years ago, I started learning piano, and I got accepting onto a music course at college. Most keyboardists spend years playing before they get to GCSE/College course level, I only took a year to achive this. That was because it was my special interest, and without that intense focus I wouldn't have been able to do that. On top of that, it makes me unique, witty, funny, and an interesting individual. To say that I have a "problem" is ridiculous. It's always been other people, and the fact that they won't accept me. The world is designed for NT people, unfortunately. But that is what is disabling me, the actions of NT's and "normal" people. NT society needs to stop being snobby and realise that we're all the same, and adaptions should be made for everybody instead of trying to force us all into boring submission.

THnakyou, it's nice to have a definitive answer that has abasis in fact. :D


No problem! :D I like having my say about these things, because in my opinion autistic people need more optimism and should think higher of themselves. We're not victims; we are unique! :)



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13 Nov 2011, 2:27 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
A lack of fine motor control and posture issues are common physical traits with Aspergers as well as other ASD's; how do you suggest we get rid of that in Aspergers by "selective breeding"?

Really? Is that your answer? I have fine motor skills and no posture issues. Say, and I am a quite common phenotype for autistics. Furthermore posture is not a thing that you're born with. It can improve, easily. I know a lot of NTs wiuth bad posture.

aghogday wrote:
The majority of individuals diagnosed with Aspergers do not hold down regular employment, and many rely on their parents for support, so while there is likely not going to be a cure for Aspergers and many that would not want to see a cure, survival of the fittest, is not a good ideology for all people with Aspergers, particularly the majority that need the support of others to survive.
And indeed from the cases that we know of many of them could do fine without with a proper upbringing. Take Christian Weston Chandler, the supposed perennial manchild. Many suspect that his problems come from his parents having no damned clue how to deal with the situation and thus making him in to a conceited jerk by simply showering him with praise and gifts and spoiling him.

aghogday wrote:
Ethics and morality, and what is right and wrong, is not religion unless one associates their eithics and morality with religion. I don't see anyone doing that here, in this discussion.
Why did you stuff that in?


Problems with fine motor skills and posture is common in Aspergers. It doesn't mean it applies to you as an individual. And just because it doesn't apply to you as an individual doesn't mean these are not common clinical features among people that are diagnosed with Aspergers.

Perhaps you are in the broader phenotype of autism that does not include a diagnosis of a disorder? There are tests online that measure this. This phenotype constitutes anywhere from 10 to 15 percent of the population. And it is suggested that close to 30 percent of the population has at least 1 autistic trait. Have you ever checked these online tests out?

If you would like me to, I can find a link for you. If you are part of the broader phenotype of autism, you indeed are in a common phenotype of autism that constitutes 10 to 15 times more people than are actually in the narrow aspect of the phenotype with a diagnosis of a disorder.

From every response I've heard from you so far, anytime someone brings up the clinical features of aspergers, it doesn't sound like you have any of the clinical features associated with aspergers, except for special interests. Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.

This is what the broader phenotype of autism describes, an extension of the phenotype for individuals that do not have all the clinical features and criteria of the disorders diagnosed.

This is a list of the main clinical features of Aspergers; if you don't have any of them, it's not likely you have a disorder, and more likely that you might be part of the broader phenotype of Autism:

Quote:
Asperger's Syndrome is a chronic neurodevelopmental disorder that is
considered to be part of the spectrum of autistic disorders. It presents most
noticeably as a disorder of social cognition and communication. The main clinical
features include:
· lack of empathy, ability to take another's perspective
· naïve, inappropriate, one-sided interaction with others
· little or no ability to form friendships
· social anxiety
· pedantic, repetitive speech
· intense absorption in certain subjects, often involving minutia (e.g., train
schedules, numbers, maps)
· poor non-verbal communication, including limited use of gestures and facial
expressions
· clumsy, ill-coordinated movements, odd postures or mannerisms
· difficulty establishing and maintaining eye-contact


Quote:
Students with Asperger's usually have poor gross and fine motor skills.
Recent neuroimaging studies have shown that the part of the brain known as the
cerebellum is smaller in many people with Asperger's. The cerebellum regulates
posture, balance, one's limb movements and the timing of those movements. Thus,
gait may seem stiff or peculiar and accompanying arm swing may be lacking. These students seem "clumsy," and tend to avoid sports due to poor perceptual-motor skills (movement
in response to what is seen or heard). Handwriting may be nearly illegible,
necessitating the use of word processors or other assistive technology


http://www.lvc.edu/disability-services/bulletins/aspergers.pdf

Upbringing makes a difference in everyone's life, but it doesn't change the physical structure of the brain, as many recent studies suggest is in part what is behind the actual disorders related to autism.

The Op made a reference to get the religious stuff out of here, I was just making it clear that we were not talking about religion when we were discussing morality and ethics. I'm still not quite sure exactly what he meant by his comment, other than he said it was sarcasm.



Last edited by aghogday on 14 Nov 2011, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Nov 2011, 7:19 am

I can check off that list, and more.

What changed, is I bought my first bike at fifteen, and as a man-machine, I do well. Fifty years on the road, never hit anything. I have strange posture. sit crosslegged. It is natural for me, and a lot of others world wide.

They gave up on teaching me to write, I have printed all my life. I got good at it. I met several others that did the same, we all owned Rapidiograph ink pens. Thin line drafting pens, expensive then, now Bic makes them in several line widths.

We typed, were slow, because correcting errors with whiteout took longer.

I love my keyboard and WordPerfect.

I was not non verbal, I just did not speak. My grandmother was about the only person I spoke to. The rest only spoke in an unfriendly way, if I answered it got worse, so I said nothing. I was a child, they were crazy and dangerous people who could do anything they wanted to me, why help?

Comply, get away. Never answer back. There was not a place for me in the conversation. I learned to read at four. Books cannot turn on you.

It only takes a few times till a child loses all trust, withdraws, from loud, threating, large adults. It seems to be their only game. Parents, Teachers, Preachers, they are all the same. It was based on being bigger, so I did not speak till I was, then they all claimed to be totally innocent, pure as driven snow, and the best friend of Jesus. They always were liers. They denied thirteen years of using me.

I had no connection with the world at all, except books. None of the people in books were like them. Neither my speech or my printing was good enough, nothing was, so I withdrew farther and farther. I could not get away, I could only withdraw into myself.

As far as I could tell they lived for some emotional reason, and I seemed an easy target. It did not change when I became an adult. They hunger for emotion and demand to be fed. They will do anything for a reaction.

As an outsider, I think they are so driven by their madness, as I see it, that if they cannot get you to love them, having you want to kill them is just as good. They live for strong emotions. I happen to dislike people who raise their voice, get emotional, threating, not my person any longer, just everything I have.

The Insane hairless ground ape may be the most common type, but they are insane, loud, dangerous, and they have nothing else to offer.

I see myself as a sane, rational, logical person who likes books, learning, work and developing my skills, which I have to do behind locked doors and in isolation. When I am focused on something, I am like a magnet to them. To disrupt my life is their only goal. They get nothing out of it but emotion. I live in a world of drug addict apes.

We do mature out of Autism, when we learn about locked doors, and not answering knocks, which then come from the side of the house, the windows, the back door, for they have to get something. A fenced yard and a pit bull works.

Most of the energy of my life has been spent boarding up my world from the emotion eating zombies. In the old words, they were called Porlocks, Psychic Vampires living off of the mental and emotional energy of another. They would like to hit you with sticks, cut you with knives, and watch you suffer and die, but that is now illegal, so they torment in legal ways to get their fix.

The more you want nothing to do with them, the more they want your energy.

We had to pass strict laws about attacking senior citizens, and children have recently gotten some protection, but not from parents and teachers telling them they are worthless burdens that are ruining their lives every day.

A constant stream of cases that come to light show children locked in dog cages, beaten, burned, whipped, starved, to feed some ape emotion, for it feels so good. Serial killers that prey on adults are rare, compared to the vast number of tortures that children live through or die from.

I happen to be very good at empathy, and reading eyes, such monsters you all are, so cruel, heartless, and driven to suck all of the enjoyment of life from helpless children. As a child I was born into an endless terror, that I could only withdraw within from, never escape. We have no defense, no legal protection, from your voice that says so much, or your eyes that say you are from the pit of hell.

Children want to die to get away from you, seek comfort in movements, for if anything gives comfort, it will be taken away.

We are born perceptive, willing, eager to meet life, we are met with a life destroying rejection.

Some do survive, find our song, but the sorrow can be heard.



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14 Nov 2011, 7:28 pm

Sometimes I spend a lot of time ruminating on the differences and similarities between me and my son.
I don’t have a great memory, but I remember my first classroom. There was the teacher drawing shapes on the board..which seemed meaningless to me. I would look out the window at the clouds moving across the sky, and the trees moving in the wind which I liked to do. Sometimes I heard the children laughing and turned to pay attention but it was the teacher making fun of me in front of the class for being absent. I remember things like the feel of the hessian mat on my legs it really bothered me.

Later I recall going to a room to do some tasks. There were pictures of a comb with teeth missing, a train with smoke coming out, things like that. I had to answer the questions the man asked me. That was the test that was supposed to convince my parents to allow the school to put me into a class for ret*d children, but since I scored in the top percentiles it didn’t work out that way. So I was not told anything, and was put back in the class and allowed to be and I didn’t learn all that well, but I taught myself some things, and I was able to make one or two friends and be somewhat ‘normal’.
I learn slowly, I need to see all the details for myself and understand how they work before things make sense.

And my son looks out windows at trees and clouds but he doesn’t talk, and does seem ret*d and is classified so in the new terminology of Global Developmental Delay, because he doesn’t learn things or if he does it takes a long long time and a lot of effort.

But yet he gets bored. He gets stir crazy in the house. When I go home today after work he will look at me and see his opportunity to get out of the house, and take my hand and if theres time to do so, I will get his PEC of the playground and some other things and he will choose the playground and then I will go for a walk with him to the park. And on the way he will run down the street then stop still as a statue. Then run some more and stop again. And go to the letterboxes and look in them and move the spring loaded flaps. And at the park he likes to go on the swings and I push him. Up to an hour. Sometimes he laughs hysterically, sometimes he just seems happy, or he makes noises and flaps his hands.

If other children come along he will watch them, often obliquely. He never used to do this as far as I could tell, but he does now and he has a smile on his face sometimes. And on the way back from the park he will stop at different plants and feel their texture but only if he’s interested (Phormium Tenax is a favourite at the moment). And when I get tired of waiting I will move him on, and he accepts that and then he will go running down the road again in his strange skipping cadence with his head tilted making strange noises, and he will go to dart out on the road and I will catch him always as I am always there, and maybe for the 100th time I will whisper in his ear about staying on the footpath and point out the footpath, and the road.

So I think about all this a lot, and wonder about this Autism and his brain, and sometimes I think he’s the way I was just a lot more so, and sometimes I’m really not sure about anything at all.



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14 Nov 2011, 8:09 pm

nostromo wrote:
Sometimes I spend a lot of time ruminating on the differences and similarities between me and my son.
I don’t have a great memory, but I remember my first classroom. There was the teacher drawing shapes on the board..which seemed meaningless to me. I would look out the window at the clouds moving across the sky, and the trees moving in the wind which I liked to do. Sometimes I heard the children laughing and turned to pay attention but it was the teacher making fun of me in front of the class for being absent. I remember things like the feel of the hessian mat on my legs it really bothered me.

Later I recall going to a room to do some tasks. There were pictures of a comb with teeth missing, a train with smoke coming out, things like that. I had to answer the questions the man asked me. That was the test that was supposed to convince my parents to allow the school to put me into a class for ret*d children, but since I scored in the top percentiles it didn’t work out that way. So I was not told anything, and was put back in the class and allowed to be and I didn’t learn all that well, but I taught myself some things, and I was able to make one or two friends and be somewhat ‘normal’.
I learn slowly, I need to see all the details for myself and understand how they work before things make sense.

And my son looks out windows at trees and clouds but he doesn’t talk, and does seem ret*d and is classified so in the new terminology of Global Developmental Delay, because he doesn’t learn things or if he does it takes a long long time and a lot of effort.

But yet he gets bored. He gets stir crazy in the house. When I go home today after work he will look at me and see his opportunity to get out of the house, and take my hand and if theres time to do so, I will get his PEC of the playground and some other things and he will choose the playground and then I will go for a walk with him to the park. And on the way he will run down the street then stop still as a statue. Then run some more and stop again. And go to the letterboxes and look in them and move the spring loaded flaps. And at the park he likes to go on the swings and I push him. Up to an hour. Sometimes he laughs hysterically, sometimes he just seems happy, or he makes noises and flaps his hands.

If other children come along he will watch them, often obliquely. He never used to do this as far as I could tell, but he does now and he has a smile on his face sometimes. And on the way back from the park he will stop at different plants and feel their texture but only if he’s interested (Phormium Tenax is a favourite at the moment). And when I get tired of waiting I will move him on, and he accepts that and then he will go running down the road again in his strange skipping cadence with his head tilted making strange noises, and he will go to dart out on the road and I will catch him always as I am always there, and maybe for the 100th time I will whisper in his ear about staying on the footpath and point out the footpath, and the road.

So I think about all this a lot, and wonder about this Autism and his brain, and sometimes I think he’s the way I was just a lot more so, and sometimes I’m really not sure about anything at all.


Have you ever taken any of the online tests like the AQ test, Aspie Quiz, or Broader Phenotype of Autism test to see where you stand there. I was a little older than you, when I took the AQ test, and scored extremely high on it, but it was of little consequence to my life at that time, I had adapted to my satisfaction, that was all that mattered to me.

As I look back at the time I was raised, it wasn't the same as things are today. My memory is clear of being overwhelmed by every new detail in the world, but there was maybe 10 percent of the details available in todays world. I was fortunate too, to live in the same small uncomplicated town most of my life, where people were able to adapt to me, as well as me adapt to them.

I can look back at this point, and truly say if I was born today, I'm not sure I would have been able to adapt to the too much that is todays world, at least for me. I lived in a small house on a river in a small world, no TV, just a few neighbors, and friendly ones at that.

My world got bigger and bigger, more complicated as the years went by, I slowly adapted, but for some children, todays world, is one that is presented to a child on one large plate.

At a point later my adaptive social mechanisms and the number of details to coordinate no longer matched, I had exceeded my limitations, an uncharted territory where I had never been.

From my mothers description of how I was before I learned to talk, your son does not sound entirely different.

Many children are born today, in an uncharted territory, where other humans have not been, a manmade place that would that would have probably driven most of our ancestors mad if they were suddenly dropped into it as an adult.

I moved out of my small town in 2nd grade to a bigger one, for one year, a much larger complicated world and school, where I remember being completely lost. My sister who has been diagnosed and I suffered the same consequence, people were nice enough but it was overwhelming to us, couldn't eat, lost weight and were sick almost that entire year.

After that we moved back to the small house on the river, in the small town and the small school, things were okay again, life was no longer overwhelming.

I don't think it is surprising that some humans adapt slower than others in this new type of world that humans have created. Almost everything physically about me was developmentally slow, except for my ability to take in information at school and score high on multiple choice quesions. I was extremely fortunate to have that ability. It was the opposite for many others.



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15 Nov 2011, 3:34 am

aghogday wrote:
Have you ever taken any of the online tests like the AQ test, Aspie Quiz, or Broader Phenotype of Autism test to see where you stand there. I was a little older than you, when I took the AQ test, and scored extremely high on it, but it was of little consequence to my life at that time, I had adapted to my satisfaction, that was all that mattered to me.

Yeah, pretty normal are the results. I did remember finding other children a bit confusing when I was young. I spent a lot of time being shy and sitting back and observing them. Then ditto with people and particularly girls as I was older. Wasn't until I was in my 30s that I was socially confident. I had learnt a lot by then.
I can go out to a social function and talk to people and be completely at ease and hold their attention, once I decide to stop hanging out in the corner..it takes energy though and I'd just as likely prefer to stay at home and do something like read about Tank Battles of WW2, the Aztecs or how alloys are manufactured :)



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15 Nov 2011, 6:59 am

what i dont get is that if a lot of you claim to have no symtoms than why would you consider yourself autistic.me personaly i have constant sensory pain and many days i am barely functional.my hands shake so badly im embarrased to write in front of people.my fine motor skills haveimproved a lot since being kicked out of cello class at 8 years old.im actualy now a good clasical pianist.but my playing is a bit choppy.it seems like everyone here is constantly being discriminated against because of there autism but yet have no symptoms there of


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15 Nov 2011, 10:21 am

aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor skills and posture is common in Aspergers.

You didn't listen to what I said about posture being correctable or you trying to say we had no fine motor skills in general, which is wrong.

aghogday wrote:
It doesn't mean it applies to you as an individual. And just because it doesn't apply to you as an individual doesn't mean these are not common clinical features among people that are diagnosed with Aspergers.

Pff, here we go. Shadow accusations once more. You don't even know what special interests I have, never mind whether I have any. I had speech delay, supposedly, until 3 years of age and then raced ahead during my primary school years. I had no interest in other people's petty games that you vaunt as meaning we have deficits and I most certainly never took interest on sociability for its own sake. My own element has always been with other people with this asperger's diagnosis, most of which do not have fine motor skill issues.

aghogday wrote:
From every response I've heard from you so far, anytime someone brings up the clinical features of aspergers, it doesn't sound like you have any of the clinical features associated with aspergers, except for special interests.

No, that's you makiing guesswork and me rebuffing you for making presumtuous guesswork. Amazingly enough many people with aspergers have fine motor skills and no mental retardation at all, despite what your twisted stistic performed by organisations that doesn't even use proper caveats in their findings try to say.

aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
And a sign of ironically very clumsy work on the behalf of clinicians with no understanding of the actual core autism diagnosis, which is:
- communication difficulties
-a lack of social interest
-poor grasp of irrelevant communicative features such as analogy
-strong personal interests.

To say anything else is autism one is talking about low functioning autism not aspergers, and even then it's clear that it's a comorbidity, a sign of another disorder, not simply the junk taxon of autism.
I will remind everyone that this is the man who used stiatistics to come to the insane conclusion that one in two-hundred children in the United States were mute.



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15 Nov 2011, 5:35 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor skills and posture is common in Aspergers.

You didn't listen to what I said about posture being correctable or you trying to say we had no fine motor skills in general, which is wrong.

aghogday wrote:
It doesn't mean it applies to you as an individual. And just because it doesn't apply to you as an individual doesn't mean these are not common clinical features among people that are diagnosed with Aspergers.

Pff, here we go. Shadow accusations once more. You don't even know what special interests I have, never mind whether I have any. I had speech delay, supposedly, until 3 years of age and then raced ahead during my primary school years. I had no interest in other people's petty games that you vaunt as meaning we have deficits and I most certainly never took interest on sociability for its own sake. My own element has always been with other people with this asperger's diagnosis, most of which do not have fine motor skill issues.

aghogday wrote:
From every response I've heard from you so far, anytime someone brings up the clinical features of aspergers, it doesn't sound like you have any of the clinical features associated with aspergers, except for special interests.

No, that's you makiing guesswork and me rebuffing you for making presumtuous guesswork. Amazingly enough many people with aspergers have fine motor skills and no mental retardation at all, despite what your twisted stistic performed by organisations that doesn't even use proper caveats in their findings try to say.

aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
And a sign of ironically very clumsy work on the behalf of clinicians with no understanding of the actual core autism diagnosis, which is:
- communication difficulties
-a lack of social interest
-poor grasp of irrelevant communicative features such as analogy
-strong personal interests.

To say anything else is autism one is talking about low functioning autism not aspergers, and even then it's clear that it's a comorbidity, a sign of another disorder, not simply the junk taxon of autism.

I will remind everyone that this is the man who used stiatistics to come to the insane conclusion that one in two-hundred children in the United States were mute.


You mentioned a few posts ago that you got interested in piano and learned it very quickly; from the way you talked about it, it sounded like that might be a special interest for you; it's the closest thing I can remember you attributing to yourself that has anything to do with a diagnosis of Aspergers.

I don't care what your symptoms are, but when I am discussing the clinical features of Aspergers with someone else, and you come into the conversation, to suggest just because it doesn't apply to you or your personal experience with your friends, means that the researchers are somehow ignorant of the facts, doesn't seem like a reasonable response to me. If you could provide actual evidence to refute it, that would be different, but you are only providing anecdotal opinion.

Not speaking until age 3 is not considered clinically significant in an Aspergers diagnosis. A diagnosis of Aspergers excludes clinically significant delays in speech. So not speaking until age 3 is not an issue with Aspergers.

I never used statistics to come to the insane conclusion that one in two-hundred children in the United States were mute . There is no evidence of it anywhere here in the text. Unless you can provide it you just made a fallacious statement of something I said that I did not state.

I provided referenced evidence from the CDC that about 40 percent of children do not speak that have ASD's. Someone else derived the 1 in 200 number, not me. They based it on another government provided statistic that 1 in 110 children in the US have an ASD. If they actually did the math and used those two numbers to come up with an accurate projection provided by those two numbers it wouldn't be 1 in 200, it would be 1 in 275.

They suggested that anyone that saw those two statistics on the CDC webpage would come to the absurd conclusion that 1 in 200 children in the US could not speak. If they did, it would be because they didn't do the math, I'm not sure how the CDC should be held accountable for that.

All the statistics were provided by the US government, so none of it is my opinion. The 41% of individuals considered to have the co-morbid condition of mental retardation in ASD's quoted by the CDC do not include individuals with Aspergers. Mental retardation excludes one from being diagnosed with Aspergers.

Psychologists, Psychiatrists, and researchers came up with the clinical features of Aspergers from studying real live human beings, as I presented from the research in my last post.

Problems with posture, and fine motor skills, as evidenced in that research is related to brain function in some individuals with Aspergers.

On the other hand you have observed your friends and derived your own conclusion from who you have come across in your life on a personal basis. I think the researchers have studied more folks that you have to come to the logical conclusion that these are common clinical features usually seen in people diagnosed with Aspergers. They aren't co-morbids they are clinical features of aspergers.

Do a search on fine motor skills and Aspergers, if you like, and it is likely you will find that everyone is in agreement with this clinical finding. I've never heard anyone suggest that problems with fine motor skills aren't a clinical feature usually seen in Aspergers. I did a comprehensive search and no one has come to the conclusion that you have that it could only be a co-morbid associated with low functioning autism. I guess it's not completely impossible that everyone else could be wrong and you could be right, but I'm thinking that's highly unlikely.

An analogy isn't an irrelevant part of communication anymore than a metaphor is. If one cannot understand them it brings a deficit in the ability to understand communication in everyday life. Human communication is full of analogies, metaphors, and other types of figurative language that are definitely relevant to communication.

Communication difficulties, a lack of social interest, and strong personal interests are not how the required criteria for diagnosis of Aspergers are described in either the DSMIV or DSM10

Here are the actual criteria of Aspergers from the DSMIV:

In the US if one doesn't meet these required criteria they would not be diagnosed with Aspergers, they must meet every requirement that is bolded.

Quote:
Diagnostic Criteria for 299.80 Asperger's Disorder

[The following is from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM IV]
(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects


(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia


http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

Here is how Aspergers is defined in the ICD10 often used in the UK:

Quote:
F84.5
Asperger's syndrome

Definition
A disorder of uncertain nosological validity, characterized by the same type of qualitative abnormalities of reciprocal social interaction that typify autism, together with a restricted, stereotyped, repetitive repertoire of interests and activities. It differs from autism primarily in the fact that there is no general delay or retardation in language or in cognitive development. This disorder is often associated with marked clumsiness. There is a strong tendency for the abnormalities to persist into adolescence and adult life. Psychotic episodes occasionally occur in early adult life.

Incl.:
Autistic psychopathy
Schizoid disorder of childhood


http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F84.5



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15 Nov 2011, 6:02 pm

@aghogday.who was that last post directed at.it said gedrene but im the only one in the last few posts who said they play the piano


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15 Nov 2011, 7:53 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday.who was that last post directed at.it said gedrene but im the only one in the last few posts who said they play the piano


I was speaking to Gedrene. The post I was referring to wasn't including in the last few posts.

My understanding now, is that he doesn't like the words "special interest", which are described below as intense absorption in certain subjects often involving minutia, so he may not think that applies to his own personal behavior, which of course is his business, as long as he does not try to suggest that special interests aren't a common clinical feature seen in people with Aspergers, without providing evidence beyond anecdotal experience to refute such an assertion, per the clinical features of Aspergers, as listed in the reliable source I provided, and as stated as follows:

Quote:
lack of empathy, ability to take another's perspective
· naïve, inappropriate, one-sided interaction with others
· little or no ability to form friendships
· social anxiety
· pedantic, repetitive speech
· intense absorption in certain subjects, often involving minutia (e.g., train
schedules, numbers, maps)
· poor non-verbal communication, including limited use of gestures and facial
expressions
· clumsy, ill-coordinated movements, odd postures or mannerisms
· difficulty establishing and maintaining eye-contact



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15 Nov 2011, 8:47 pm

ok sorry i was confused.who said not speaking until 3 is a symtom of aspergers,thats hfa there is no speech delay in aspergers.aspergers has the fine motor delay and speech is precosious


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15 Nov 2011, 8:55 pm

when i was 5 my parents who i was with met i believe it was greg lamb at a clam bake on cape cod.the man who would go on to start c-span.i had at 5 years old a political discusion about the 1980 presidential election,i held my ground like a forty year old.true story


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15 Nov 2011, 9:08 pm

[random]
Has anyone read the Moomintroll books?
It just occured to me that the diagnostic criteria aghogday listed above for Aspergers describe the Hemulen. 8O
[/random]



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15 Nov 2011, 11:53 pm

nostromo wrote:
[random]
Has anyone read the Moomintroll books?
It just occured to me that the diagnostic criteria aghogday listed above for Aspergers describe the Hemulen. 8O
[/random]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemulen

The books first came out in 1945, The clinical features, along with the way people who don't have aspergers describe those that have it are interestingly similiar.


Quote:
Hemulens (Original Swedish: hemul sg., hemuler pl.) are a species of characters in the Moomin series of books by Swedish-speaking Finnish author Tove Jansson. Hemulens feature in several of the books. One Hemulen collects butterflies, and another is an avid skier. A female Hemulen raised Moominpappa in an orphanage, and later Moominpappa encountered her aunt, who looked confusingly like her. In Comet in Moominland there appears a Hemulen who is an avid stamp-collector. In the following book, Finn family Moomintroll, he is initially depressed because he has acquired a copy of every stamp in the world, so that his life has no more meaning. He then realises he can take to botany, and collect plants, whereupon he brightens up.

Hemulens tend to have obsessive personalities, devoting themselves solidly to one interest, whether it be skiing, stamp-collecting, butterflies, or whatever. They tend also to be oblivious to the feelings and opinions of others. Other characters frequently find the Hemulens annoying or overwhelming, as they can be somewhat loud, bossy, abrasive and insensitive. However, they are well intentioned and usually have other redeeming qualities. Hemulens resemble Moomintrolls, but are taller, always grey, and have an even longer nose than moomintrolls. They all wear dresses, and Moomins cannot understand their reason for wearing so many clothes.

The Hemulens have also featured prominently in other Moomin media, such as comics and animated TV series.


This is also pretty random, but I found it interesting that cultural stereotypes of German Personality traits could be so similiar to both the lauded and criticized personality traits commonly associated with Aspergers:


http://schnitzelrepublic.blogspot.com/2010/07/seven-personality-traits-of-german.html


Quote:
The Seven Personality Traits of a German
Over the years, I've come to agree....there are are seven obvious and traditional personality traits of a typical German. I realize....that I will take heat for this. But in some ways, I consider these to be positive in certain ways. And no, not all Germans are this way....but these are the obvious ones that you will notice.


First, stubbornness. It was obvious from two world wars. It's obvious from the 1950s and the rebuilding of Germany. It's obvious from the economy stumbles....especially from the vision of Greece and its woes. A German simply holds to one ideal, and continues on. They don't change their opinion often....and when they do....it's a necessity that they approach in a mental sense and just do it.


Second, holding to traditions. If a German starts a tradition....they rarely fail to accomplish this. I would put Octoberfest as the prime example....but there are millions of these in German society. It could be the start of fall clean-up in your neighborhood and the accepted date for that. It could be the summerfest week that has gone on for sixty years in your local town. Unless a flood occurs, folks don't shift from the traditions.


Even on the personal level, there are things like a guy sticking to Opel cars for his entire life. Or the wife who demands a weekend getaway to Berlin the 2nd week of May of each year. Or the color scheme of a house that's been owned by some guy for forty-five years. It might even be the tradition of using only one car mechanic for your entire life, until he retires.


Third, thriftiness. Normally, I'd just call this cheapness....but I have to be fair here. You could walk up to most Germans and tell them they have $300 for an entire 10-day summer vacation....and somehow, they'd figure a way to enjoy their 10 days off....with such a modest amount of money.


When you look at German retirees....and what they often end up with at age 65.....and then somehow....they live off $1000 a month and you are kinda shocked how they do it.


Right now, there is this massive use of Hornbach (the German home improvement store). Instead of paying some guy to renovate your bathroom....a German will find the right Polish guy for a week....buy all the materials.....and then do the paint and tile himself.


Fourth, argumentative. This one.....some folks might argue about (get it?). Germans can find a thousand things to argue about. It could be one guy planting shrubs of a disliked nature that the neighbor can't stand. It could be the act of cranking your car for two minutes in winter to warm it up. One minute of such a cranking would be tolerated, but not two, and thus inviting an argument sooner or later.


Pointing out how you screwed up....would go hand-in-hand with this personality trait. They'd like to let you know something....and hopefully you agree....otherwise, it's an argument.


Fifth, a bit of humor that is different. The wild humor of Robin Williams doesn't work in Germany. Jerry Lewis humor doesn't really work. Seinfeld humor doesn't work. But you start to notice is a cynical sort of humor that most Germans tend to appreciate. It's the comparison of how bad the political system has become when compared to a drunk in a pub....which will make a German laugh his head off.


Germans love office humor if it's compared to their actual environment. They laugh over the stories at a butcher shop or government bureaucracy.....because they face this each and everyday.


Sixth, coldness. It could take a decade to really know your neighbor after you move in. In fact, you might never know your neighbor beyond a beer you share together once a month when mowing the grass.


You don't see cases where a German gal meets some guy and agrees to marriage within six months....that simply doesn't happen.


A German keeps this coldness.....as a defending tactic. It protects their inner circle and makes them feel secure.


Seventh and final.....creative. The little sensor that detects rainwater on the windshield of your car and automatically turns the wiper on? It's from a German. ABS? It's from a German. There are dozens of car devices which relate back to a German who just kept thinking about how things work.


It's the same with heating systems, pens, printers, tires, subway cars, and even zippers. They sit there and pause over the way things work.....and then announce this fantastic vision with just a simple toggle switch or a light sensor